PD vs. MZ a Krazy Function Comparison.

[IAmKrazy2]

IAmKrazy2 who started this thread as an "unbiased" comparison has already stated "Firstly, I disagree because PD's are magical", this does not sound unbiased to me at all, am I alone here on this?

As other readers detected, i was slightly sarcastic. Polly I apologize if you missed my meaning. As Stickstones stated though, my main concern is i don't know of any other vape capable of PD efficiency in such small doses. I am hoping the MZ can be this devise. Currently, as of Sunday evening I am very impressed with the MZ, but i still need a coozie on it to get in the V-Spot i really like with the PD. But they are both so similar. As a self proclaimed vapor fanatic, I am intrigued by the idea of another vape that is very different from the PD in design, but produces similar levels of efficiency. I do not know your history. have you every tried or owned a PD or MZ? If you have, what else out there compares. A brand of vaporizer type might help.

You are right fellas. haven't even got into the true testing and real comparison.

 

[pollykok]

I was speaking from a strictly theoretical standpoint, as there are only so many factors that can determine the efficiency of a vaporizer.

The main two would be:

Temperature
and
Surface area for condensation


Both of those factors are controllable by the user on other vaporizers, that's where my claim came from.


Other confounding variables would be:
Bowl Size
and
Placebo effect


Bowl size is small on the PD which allows for smaller controlled doses, which gives the user the time to feel the high before he uses more herb. This can be emulated in other vaporizers by simply packing less into their respective bowls.

The placebo effect is more complex, but if you simply expect more efficiency from a unit (and there is tons of hype surrounding it) then you might actually "feel" more high.



There is no actual reason why the PD would be more efficient than another vaporizing unit, outside of the above variables which are easily controlled and emulated on other devices.

That is why I said the PD is not magical, because people saying that the PD is simply the most efficient unit must believe that it is magical or they are not thinking clearly.

 

[lwien]

....... because people saying that the PD is simply the most efficient unit must believe that it is magical or they are not thinking clearly.

sigh...............

Polly, let me ask you a question. Have you ever tried loading 0.025g in any other vape and then said to yourself, wow, these 4 hits that I got off of this one bowl was really satisfying?

There are many here on this forum that own and use multiple vapes including the PD and they use all of them in rotations depending on the circumstances. Do you honestly think that most all of them are not thinking clearly when they state that the PD is the most efficient vape that they have ever used. What purpose would that serve for them to say that, if in fact, it wasn't true?

 

[pollykok]

....... because people saying that the PD is simply the most efficient unit must believe that it is magical or they are not thinking clearly.

sigh...............

Polly, let me ask you a question. Have you ever tried loading 0.025g in any other vape and then said to yourself, wow, these 4 hits that I got off of this one bowl was really satisfying?

There are many here on this forum that own and use multiple vapes including the PD and they use all of them in rotations depending on the circumstances. Do you honestly think that most all of them are not thinking clearly when they state that the PD is the most efficient vape that they have ever used. What purpose would that serve for them to say that, if in fact, it wasn't true?

I haven't heard that. But besides those variables I listed above, you would get the exact same amount of THC using any other vape. And from what I hear, most PD users aren't even satisfied with 0.025g and use multiple stems to get high.


The people who are saying that the PD is the most efficient vape they have ever used haven't actually really tried to use another vape efficiently, or most likely they didn't know how to use or make their other vape more efficient.


The PD out of the box forces you to be more efficient, while other vapes you actually have to be more efficient yourself. And this is why there is an illusion of supreme efficiency.


The reason why the PD seems to have more praise and followers is due to the fanatical group bandwagon effect and because anyone who has to wait 3 months to get something, as opposed to getting it within a reasonable period of time, is more likely to appreciate it. Placebo effect.

 

[lwien]

The reason why the PD seems to have more praise and followers is due to the fanatical group bandwagon effect and because anyone who has to wait 3 months to get something, as opposed to getting it within a reasonable period of time, is more likely to appreciate it. Placebo effect.

Polly, many of those that state that the PD is the most efficient vape that they have ever used purchased theirs before there was any waiting period, including myself.

Have you used a PD or a Zap?

 

[lord]

And from what I hear, most PD users aren't even satisfied with 0.025g and use multiple stems to get high.

I am unaware of what other people's PD habits are. But for me, one stem gets me high (about two hits); two stems and I feel too high (about four hits). I don't vape that often, though.

 

[t00fatt]

I haven't heard that. But besides those variables I listed above, you would get the exact same amount of THC using any other vape. And from what I hear, most PD users aren't even satisfied with 0.025g and use multiple stems to get high.


The people who are saying that the PD is the most efficient vape they have ever used haven't actually really tried to use another vape efficiently, or most likely they didn't know how to use or make their other vape more efficient.


The PD out of the box forces you to be more efficient, while other vapes you actually have to be more efficient yourself. And this is why there is an illusion of supreme efficiency.


The reason why the PD seems to have more praise and followers is due to the fanatical group bandwagon effect and because anyone who has to wait 3 months to get something, as opposed to getting it within a reasonable period of time, is more likely to appreciate it. Placebo effect.

Ok bud, if your going to try and be analytical at least do a bit of analyzing and thinking. Only way for a human to determine efficiency is by comparing the affects felt, to how much herb was used. So let's forget about efficiency because obviously you think every vape can extract the same amount and at the same rate, which is far from factual. You think a .02 in say a herbalaire versus a PD will yield the same amount of THC. Now something like that is debatable, however without proper equipment there is no way to test that. What the PD does, vapes of other styles can not do. And that is vape very small amounts while delivering thick satisfying vapor hits. The PD delivers a great air to vapor ratio when using incredibly small amounts, something other vaporizers just can not do. If your goal is to use as little bud as possible, while still enjoying your vapor and getting very high of small amounts the PD is the way to go.

 

[MoeOnTheMoon]

....... because people saying that the PD is simply the most efficient unit must believe that it is magical or they are not thinking clearly.

sigh...............

Polly, let me ask you a question. Have you ever tried loading 0.025g in any other vape and then said to yourself, wow, these 4 hits that I got off of this one bowl was really satisfying?

There are many here on this forum that own and use multiple vapes including the PD and they use all of them in rotations depending on the circumstances. Do you honestly think that most all of them are not thinking clearly when they state that the PD is the most efficient vape that they have ever used. What purpose would that serve for them to say that, if in fact, it wasn't true?

I haven't heard that. But besides those variables I listed above, you would get the exact same amount of THC using any other vape. And from what I hear, most PD users aren't even satisfied with 0.025g and use multiple stems to get high.


The people who are saying that the PD is the most efficient vape they have ever used haven't actually really tried to use another vape efficiently, or most likely they didn't know how to use or make their other vape more efficient.


The PD out of the box forces you to be more efficient, while other vapes you actually have to be more efficient yourself. And this is why there is an illusion of supreme efficiency.


The reason why the PD seems to have more praise and followers is due to the fanatical group bandwagon effect and because anyone who has to wait 3 months to get something, as opposed to getting it within a reasonable period of time, is more likely to appreciate it. Placebo effect.

Pollykok, you are entitled to your opinion. But I think your opinion is purely speculative and not worth a whole hill of beans, unless you have actually tried a PD and/or MZ and compared them to others.

I also think your premise may be flawed: that it's all about the amount of THC or any other active ingredient in the dose. I know for a fact that I can combust the same amount of mj in a joint as in a water pipe, and by putting in a little at a time, I can get just as high more times with the water pipe simply because I burn it more efficiently that way - with tiny loads into a tiny bowl. I could get high 3-4 times off a tiny joint, or I could get high 7-8 times by putting it in the tiny water pipe bowl. I am not experienced enough yet to compare that same amount in a vaporizer. But I do know that HOW you intake the thc is just important as how much THC there is in a given quantity of mj. For example, I cannot back this up with science, but I am pretty sure that when you take really giant hits of mj, either combusting or vaporizing, you are blowing out a lot of active ingredients. Whereas if you take smaller hits you don't waste nearly as much.

I would be very interested in your opinion if you could beg, borrow or buy an MZ or PD and then give us your objective opinion. But hey, opine on. Maybe you'll stir up some lively debate...

 

[rayski]

The reason why the PD seems to have more praise and followers is due to the fanatical group bandwagon effect and because anyone who has to wait 3 months to get something, as opposed to getting it within a reasonable period of time, is more likely to appreciate it. Placebo effect.

I got mine, when there was no wait and it was less expensive, because it was highly praised for it's looks, efficiency, ruggedness, costumer service and more. Are you calling happy pd owners irrational fanatics because you want a pd to. Sour Grapes.

 

[MoeOnTheMoon]

And from what I hear, most PD users aren't even satisfied with 0.025g and use multiple stems to get high.

I am unaware of what other people's PD habits are. But for me, one stem gets me high (about two hits); two stems and I feel too high (about four hits). I don't vape that often, though.

Ha! You're a lot like me. If I take more than 2 hits off any vape, I'm "too high" - at least for awhile. That's why I was attracted to the PD and MZ right away, when I heard how efficient they were.

I do wonder if anyone has compared them to a Vapor Cannon or Vapor Bros box, though. Not sure how efficient those are, but people I have met have been raving about them.

 

[pollykok]

I got mine, when there was no wait and it was less expensive, because it was highly praised for it's looks, efficiency, ruggedness, costumer service and more. Are you calling happy pd owners irrational fanatics because you want a pd to. Sour Grapes.

Na the whole hold it up to your face to use it isn't really my preference, though it does look classy and would fit in well in some decors.

Pollykok, you are entitled to your opinion. But I think your opinion is purely speculative and not worth a whole hill of beans, unless you have actually tried a PD and/or MZ and compared them to others.

I also think your premise may be flawed: that it's all about the amount of THC or any other active ingredient in the dose. I know for a fact that I can combust the same amount of mj in a joint as in a water pipe, and by putting in a little at a time, I can get just as high more times with the water pipe simply because I burn it more efficiently that way - with tiny loads into a tiny bowl. I could get high 3-4 times off a tiny joint, or I could get high 7-8 times by putting it in the tiny water pipe bowl. I am not experienced enough yet to compare that same amount in a vaporizer. But I do know that HOW you intake the thc is just important as how much THC there is in a given quantity of mj. For example, I cannot back this up with science, but I am pretty sure that when you take really giant hits of mj, either combusting or vaporizing, you are blowing out a lot of active ingredients. Whereas if you take smaller hits you don't waste nearly as much.

I would be very interested in your opinion if you could beg, borrow or buy an MZ or PD and then give us your objective opinion. But hey, opine on. Maybe you'll stir up some lively debate...

It actually is about the amount of THC, and vaporization is vaporization.

The reason you get higher from a water pipe as opposed to a joint is because the joint is constantly burning and lit, the smoke is also much hotter.

You don't have to take giant hits with other vaporizers, that's my point, most people just do.
You can pack it like a PD if you want to, set it to the same temperature as the PD, and then the only negligible difference will be the surface area condensation if you haven't accounted for that.

Ok bud, if your going to try and be analytical at least do a bit of analyzing and thinking. Only way for a human to determine efficiency is by comparing the affects felt, to how much herb was used. So let's forget about efficiency because obviously you think every vape can extract the same amount and at the same rate, which is far from factual. You think a .02 in say a herbalaire versus a PD will yield the same amount of THC. Now something like that is debatable, however without proper equipment there is no way to test that. What the PD does, vapes of other styles can not do. And that is vape very small amounts while delivering thick satisfying vapor hits. The PD delivers a great air to vapor ratio when using incredibly small amounts, something other vaporizers just can not do. If your goal is to use as little bud as possible, while still enjoying your vapor and getting very high of small amounts the PD is the way to go.

Hey bud, cute response.


What is true is that the high felt is proportional to the amount of THC and active ingredients ingested.

And you realize that vapes work by heating the herb to release the THC, right? What differentiates PD's heat from the heat of other vapes, besides nothing? Heat is energy, the PD does not emit another magical type of energy that vaporizes more THC than other energies.

PD does not have any magical capabilities to release any more active ingredients than any other vaporizer, period.

While the PD does possess the ability to produce thick hits with a small amount of herb, you're still only getting 0.025g worth of THC, which you could have gotten using another device even though the hit might not be as thick.

The fact is that other vaporizers are as efficient as the PD, not that they produce hits of the same thickness with the extremely small amounts of herb like the PD does.

I am unaware of what other people's PD habits are. But for me, one stem gets me high (about two hits); two stems and I feel too high (about four hits). I don't vape that often, though.

Thanks for the information. This is an example of an individual's tolerance level which varies from person to person.

Polly, many of those that state that the PD is the most efficient vape that they have ever used purchased theirs before there was any waiting period, including myself.

Have you used a PD or a Zap?

I actually haven't.

I haven't driven a motor-scooter, but I can tell you that if you tune two motor-scooters to the same specifications (exhaust, engine, weight, etc..) they will get basically the same gas-mileage, confounding variables aside.

 

[indigal]

But besides those variables I listed above, you would get the exact same amount of THC using any other vape. And from what I hear, most PD users aren't even satisfied with 0.025g and use multiple stems to get high.

I am very happy with one stem. That depends on quality of herb, for the most part.

The people who are saying that the PD is the most efficient vape they have ever used haven't actually really tried to use another vape efficiently, or most likely they didn't know how to use or make their other vape more efficient.

I normally avoid getting in this type of back and forth, but as one of the group that by her own experience feels that the PD is more efficient than the IO that I also own.. I tried an experiment to see if my perceptions are correct.. as much as they can be. I have the technology

Several hours apart today I weighed .020 grams of my normal stuff. Put that in my modded for better efficiency IO- bottom screen is out, got the double spacer/filter thing going..

Allowed the IO to heat 7mins (wanted to make sure it was at optimum temp) before loading a (very tiny looking) measured amount in. Allowed it to cycle once and proceeded to vape that for far longer than it was useful. The IO is not "efficient" in the sense of how many inhales you need to pull to get everything that you can out of a load. I got a buzz. It was not as fast acting or as high as I get with the PD.

I tried the same load just a few mins ago in the PD. One hit- nice cloud, 2nd hit, less cloud still nice, 3rd, no cloud but I always do 3.. did not inhale any more. Buzz is stronger. No Question. I inhaled far more times using the IO. Stopped at 3, then tried a few more just to make sure I got it all (yes, I did let it cycle many times so I was not cooling it down too much.)

Efficiency means many things. Number of draws to extract all you can from a specific amount: The PD in my first hand, stoner-sci method is more efficient hands down in this regard than the IO (my only direct comparison tool avail). Drawing heated air thru a small enclosed space that is filled with herb very quickly vaporized what's there to vaporize.

Time to reach your "happy place": faster and more dead-on accurate with the PD, 2 bumps I was there. IO never got to the same "there" after I'd estimate 10 inhales.

Then there is the efficiency of usage. I can only say that my ABV jar is not getting full nearly at the rate as it was with my IO and I am vaping more often. This is because- with the PD I can get there with 2-3 bumps on one stem. Done. There isn't anything left that the PD's temp can do.

IO took several more bumps to vape out that calibrated dose. Too much space around such small load I think. It may be temp related, time related (took longer for me to say, ok- I think that's it, there's nothing left in the IO) or possibly condensation in the chamber of the IO & stem (metal condenser is out) but I did not get as high in comparison to the same size load in the PD.

So, time-efficient.. PD wins, effect for same dose- PD.

The only thing I favor on the IO is ability to savor the flavor. More drawn out pulls on a bigger load, for me equates to deeper flavor.

These are apples to oranges when you try to compare two drastically differing vaporizers. Their intended usage design is just not the same. That's why this thread is about comparing the PD and MZ as they are designed to use the same amount and they function in similar ways.

May I kindly suggest you create a new thread if you want to continue the discussion in another direction?

That's it.. all I got.



IAmKrazy:

I'd love to hear more comparisons of the PD to MZ please?

Odd Q's- do they weigh about the same? Or does one feel heavier for it's comparable design?

Do you notice a different scent (wood) between the two?

Smoothness of finish?

Thanks for this thread BTW, I think it is useful if kept flowing. Let's get back to the topic of comparing these two nice wood vapes.

 

[lwien]

I agree. Lets not dilute this thread and try to keep it on-topic of comparing the MZ to the PD. (knowing full well that I am the king of hi-jacking threads........lol)

 

[MoeOnTheMoon]

I'll start a "Are some vaporizers more efficient than others..." thread here in the Vapor Lounge if no one has beaten me to it and we can continue this discussion. Let's just keep it CIVIL. This stuff REALLY isn't THAT important after all...

 

[IAmKrazy2]

Odd Q's- do they weigh about the same? Or does one feel heavier for it's comparable design?

Do you notice a different scent (wood) between the two?

Smoothness of finish?

Thanks for this thread BTW, I think it is useful if kept flowing. Let's get back to the topic of comparing these two nice wood vapes.

I forgot to mention weight. I thought I did... ooops. Will pull out the scale later. I assumed th Mz would be heavier, "old brass" just seemed like it would weigh more. It actually is a bit lighter.

I have been slightly congested since receiving my MZ. I noticed very little smell in either, but i think i tasted more wood for the first few days with the PD. I barely did with the MZ.

I would lean towards saying the MZ feels a little smoother, but the nature of the wood gives it little divots and imperfections. Lot of great character really.

 

[Rick]

I could have the wrong words here but isn't there a concept like "efficiencies of scale"?Different sizes of stuff work different ways? The PD/MZ design, forgetting the internal differences for a minute, is designed on a much smaller scale than many other vapes. Small bowl, smaller dose of hot air, etc so the things just do work better with small loads than the big blasters do, That could be described as more efficient in my book. More efficient for smaller doses. The big boys will knock you down with one big blast which some folks really like. But the PD/MZ knock you down with three(or six?) smaller pulls. If you put a tiny dose in a big chamber, you get way more air than is best for good vaping(air to vapor ratio).
When we first started we had several people attempt to copy us but they always tried to make the design work with bigger chambers as that was the main gripe with the design....."we want bigger hits and more of them". Apparently different designs are what was needed for bigger hits and they are out there in abundance. Many folks like the efficiency of the PD/MZ design because they do fine with smaller doses of meds. Rambling here even without my AM pulls. I do know that when we started and had good herb, I could pull a giant hit off that small design. Took a bit longer to get it in but it was there and I just about fell off the barstool as I did not think I got much. So much different than smoke.
On the tolerance thing, it is a fact in my book. When there is a good supply for whatever reason, I will go through more stuff no doubt. Don't think I am 'more gone' in any way. It's there so I do it 'cause I love it so much. Go without a few days and BAM, gone in a pull or two. Same with booze for me anyway.

 

[masejl12]

^^^^ I agree completely

 

[MoeOnTheMoon]

I could have the wrong words here but isn't there a concept like "efficiencies of scale"?Different sizes of stuff work different ways? The PD/MZ design, forgetting the internal differences for a minute, is designed on a much smaller scale than many other vapes. Small bowl, smaller dose of hot air, etc so the things just do work better with small loads than the big blasters do, That could be described as more efficient in my book. More efficient for smaller doses. The big boys will knock you down with one big blast which some folks really like. But the PD/MZ knock you down with three(or six?) smaller pulls. If you put a tiny dose in a big chamber, you get way more air than is best for good vaping(air to vapor ratio).
[edited out last part - moe]

Rick, that is what I see also: that smaller bowls and smaller doses of hot air means more efficient use and better for small doses. And that's what I mean by "efficiency" as well. To me it just seems "obvious" that this would be true. That's why for years I combusted using a very tiny bowl on a water pipe. I would take a microscopic amount, put it in the bowl, burn every bit of it up, hold it and then blow it out. It's more efficient because you are getting the "good" out of every bit, not wasting it on more smoke (or vape) than your body can efficiently absorb.

But sure, it might be fun once in a while to get REALLY RIPPED and take a giant hit on some other giant-bowl vaporizer. It's just not what I'm personally into. Big hits like that tend to make me uncomfortable, actually. Keep in mind I'm using medical marijuana, which tends to be very strong, even the "lower end" strains. I tell the guy "Give me something very light", I come home, take a couple big vapes and I'm going "Shit! That's the WEAK stuff!?" I have a very low tolerance.

 

[DevoTheStrange]

hey Krazy, I was wondering if you noticed what I noticed. Recovery time between taking hits. I go over too a friends house, he has a MZ and I have a PD.... As far as I can tell they both seem equal in heat. We tend too use both at the same time.
I noticed a slightly better recovery time on the PD (not much, just slight) than the MZ. Not enough of a difference too cause me too recommend one over the other.
with My PD ive grown accustomed too rip though one tube quite quickly... if I try too do this on the MZ it takes just a tiny bit longer... i can finish a MZ tube off in the same amount of time, just the hits dont seem as full if I go as fast as I do with the PD... now if I slow down a bit with the MZ the experience is indistinguishable from that of the PD...

 

[Beezleb]

I am not sure I would go with the word efficient instead of the word performance in vaporizers as people seemed to misunderstand the context. Also my reasoning is based in part on that the ABV is typically reported to be of sufficient quality to be viable in use with other vaporizers that can vape at a higher temperatures.

I tell people these two vaporizers perform very well with small amounts, not in terms of efficiency but I look at the issue from a bigger perspective than just how a vaporizer model may perform.

 

[IAmKrazy2]

Devo, this is something i noticed early on. With the MZ i almost needed to take my time with the bowl, because there was some heat loss after hits, where the PD did not seem to do this/ But, i have been currently testing my MZ with a coozie, and this heat loss is even loss noticeable. But you are correct in that i noticed the heat loss also.

 

[masejl12]

How much time do you guys usually take between hits?

 

[Beezleb]

Devo, this is something i noticed early on. With the MZ i almost needed to take my time with the bowl, because there was some heat loss after hits, where the MZ did not seem to do this/ But, i have been currently testing my PD with a coozie, and this heat loss is even loss noticeable. But you are correct in that i noticed the heat loss also.

Could this be due to the extra fins on the PD? I hope I am saying the name of the piece correct but I recall Tom saying one of his pieces in the PD has fins or more fins for better heat stability but I may be incorrect in my terms. My point is I always wondered what the reality of this addition would be and I am of the early thinking this is exactly that.

 

[reece]

Devo, this is something i noticed early on. With the MZ i almost needed to take my time with the bowl, because there was some heat loss after hits, where the MZ did not seem to do this/ But, i have been currently testing my PD with a coozie, and this heat loss is even loss noticeable. But you are correct in that i noticed the heat loss also.

Could this be due to the extra fins on the PD? I hope I am saying the name of the piece correct but I recall Tom saying one of his pieces in the PD has fins or more fins for better heat stability but I may be incorrect in my terms. My point is I always wondered what the reality of this addition would be and I am of the early thinking this is exactly that.

I do believe that is the purpose of the fins. And the reason he went to black fins over the original fins (please correct me if I'm wrong).

From what Devo says, it seems to be the law of diminishing returns at work if there is negligible difference between the two units.

 

[MoeOnTheMoon]

hey Krazy, I was wondering if you noticed what I noticed. Recovery time between taking hits. I go over too a friends house, he has a MZ and I have a PD.... As far as I can tell they both seem equal in heat. We tend too use both at the same time.
I noticed a slightly better recovery time on the PD (not much, just slight) than the MZ. Not enough of a difference too cause me too recommend one over the other.
with My PD ive grown accustomed too rip though one tube quite quickly... if I try too do this on the MZ it takes just a tiny bit longer... i can finish a MZ tube off in the same amount of time, just the hits dont seem as full if I go as fast as I do with the PD... now if I slow down a bit with the MZ the experience is indistinguishable from that of the PD...

What period of time are you talking about, between hits? What is the actual time difference (estimation)?