Pain Management - how do you cope?

[DRCousCous]

I find getting as"high"as possible extremely therapeutic.

There are definitely times I feel that way, but not at 7:30am when I have PT at 8:00am and a blood draw at... I usually have to delay heavy medication until later in the day.

But yeah, there are days when...I’m looking for the largest possible therapeutic dosage in the least amount of time. So far, the enail fits that niche pretty well for me

 

[shredder]

For those suffering from pain/nausea/anxiety there is now evidence that cbda may be more effective than cbd.

cbda-vs-cbd-what-are-the-differences-312019

It all began in 2008, when researchers noticed that the molecular structure of CBDA closely resembled that of other common nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs). The team then investigated the potential of CBDA to act as an anti-inflammatory agent and found that CBDA demonstrated the same COX-2 inhibitor behavior that enables NSAIDs to tackle inflammation.

CBDA is also thought to be a powerful treatment for nausea and anxiety. A 2013 study from scientists in Guelph, Canada, found that CBDA was a thousand times more powerful than CBD in binding to a specific serotonin receptor linked to anti-nausea and anti-anxiety effects when administered alongside low-doses of the traditional anti-nausea drug for chemotherapy patients, ondansetron (OND).

 

[DRCousCous]

For those suffering from pain/nausea/anxiety there is now evidence that cbda may be more effective than cbd.

cbda-vs-cbd-what-are-the-differences-312019

It all began in 2008, when researchers noticed that the molecular structure of CBDA closely resembled that of other common nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs). The team then investigated the potential of CBDA to act as an anti-inflammatory agent and found that CBDA demonstrated the same COX-2 inhibitor behavior that enables NSAIDs to tackle inflammation.

CBDA is also thought to be a powerful treatment for nausea and anxiety. A 2013 study from scientists in Guelph, Canada, found that CBDA was a thousand times more powerful than CBD in binding to a specific serotonin receptor linked to anti-nausea and anti-anxiety effects when administered alongside low-doses of the traditional anti-nausea drug for chemotherapy patients, ondansetron (OND).

I’ll look into the CBDa. It is super cheap and easy to get online, and I could use that in addition to the other cannabinoids!
I personally really despise Ondansetron. I have extreme nausea, loss of appetite, etc. (similar to what happens with chemo patients), and OND is...the worst. Sure, it will stop me puking in the middle of the night, but it completely stops my digestive system.

No puke, no poop, no digestion, no nothing...gets very uncomfortable after a while. In short, I’m always up for new ways to shortcut nausea.

 

[Flowerchild17]

I’ve been lurking and following this thread a while. I want to try to answer the thread topic question, as an introduction of sorts.

I have a very, very rare disease called Moersch-Woltmann Syndrome or “Stiff Person Syndrome.” It is a progressive, incurable neuromuscular disorder, and not much is really known about it. Probably autoimmune, definitely debilitating, and difficult to treat.

The primary feature of SPS is a failure in the GABA system, so certain muscle groups literally can’t “turn off.” Untreated, I have muscle spasms 24 hours a day in my trunk and upper parts of my legs. Worse spasms can break bones and tear ligaments. It sucks!

I am treated with Immune Globulin, very high doses of Baclofen, Diazepam, and Duloxetine. These mostly control the bad spasms. But, they are all CNS depressants, so I can’t take opioids for pain (until it is give up and hospice time, which ain’t yet for me). Three different doctors told me “go look into CBD and THC for pain and spasticity relief.”

I hadn’t used marijuana in 25 years at that point, and let me tell you...things have changed! Took me a while to figure out what works for me (and it changes):

* I make and eat 1:1 CBD:THC edibles (glycerine or fat/lecithin) through the day as a base layer

* I vape 1:1:1 CBG:CBD:THC dry herb starting in the mornings when I don’t have to be out for an appointment (in which case it’s CBG:CBD).

* I vape more and more THC as the day progresses, usually to the point of ending the day with just THC herb.

* I use “session” vapes several times a day (DiTanium and SBL Runt); I microdose frequently with a DynaVap.

* I occasionally use concentrates as either bowl toppers or with an enail (DiTanium) if I’m in a ton of pain.

Does any of it work? Not really, at a deep level. But it helps enormously for me and n a few fronts which affect my chronic pain: it helps me to get and stay relaxed, physically and mentally, which reduces pain for me; it helps to buffer a symptom of SPS I have called “ekplexia” which causes extreme startle responses (and falls, injuries, etc.); and it allows me to focus on things other than pain.

I’ve gravitated towards heavy “indica” types and away from strains people describe as “energizing” or “creative.” Make me anxious. I love the purples and kushes and GSC phenos. They work, and they taste good too.

What I need help with (only six months in) is how to protect my throat and lungs as much as possible. I’ve started vaping through water, which helps some. But...I vape a lot, and edibles don’t seem to really do it for me. How do you all cope with throat and lung irritation?

@DRCousCous, I was also very concerned about throat and lung irritation as my throat is super sensitive. I was a recreational user back in the late 70s but quit using when I was raising my children. After several surgeries (back, neck & knee), osteoarthritis and fibromyalgia brought chronic pain into my life I decided to get my card. I started with the pre-filled carts but didn't like the taste and more important the uncertainty of what I was inhaling. I found that my lungs hurt after vaping even though it didn't irritate my throat. Scary. Plus they gave me headaches. I started researching flower vapes with my hunt focused on a device that would not be harsh on my throat. I decided on the Tafee Bowle for my 1st dry herb vape and am really pleased with it. No lung or throat irritation AT ALL, and no more headaches. As a matter of fact, the vapor feels cool going in. It is SUPER easy to draw from, unrestricted which is usually not the case I've heard about pure convection vapes. There is a thread on it. People are raving about it. Again, it's my 1st dry herb vape so I can't compare it to anything but I absolutely would not feel the need to use it through water.

 

[DRCousCous]

For those suffering from pain/nausea/anxiety there is now evidence that cbda may be more effective than cbd.

cbda-vs-cbd-what-are-the-differences-312019

It all began in 2008, when researchers noticed that the molecular structure of CBDA closely resembled that of other common nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs). The team then investigated the potential of CBDA to act as an anti-inflammatory agent and found that CBDA demonstrated the same COX-2 inhibitor behavior that enables NSAIDs to tackle inflammation.

CBDA is also thought to be a powerful treatment for nausea and anxiety. A 2013 study from scientists in Guelph, Canada, found that CBDA was a thousand times more powerful than CBD in binding to a specific serotonin receptor linked to anti-nausea and anti-anxiety effects when administered alongside low-doses of the traditional anti-nausea drug for chemotherapy patients, ondansetron (OND).

So, I’ve been thinking about this, partially because high CBDa hemp is very inexpensive at the moment and easily available. Can you do a normal low temperature extraction to capture CBDa in a useable form? Seems a glycerine tincture without decarbing could work, or getting a CBDa concentrate and dispersing in oil?

Are CBDa products available or recommend by folks here?

 

[DRCousCous]

@DRCousCous, I was also very concerned about throat and lung irritation as my throat is super sensitive. I was a recreational user back in the late 70s but quit using when I was raising my children. After several surgeries (back, neck & knee), osteoarthritis and fibromyalgia brought chronic pain into my life I decided to get my card. I started with the pre-filled carts but didn't like the taste and more important the uncertainty of what I was inhaling. I found that my lungs hurt after vaping even though it didn't irritate my throat. Scary. Plus they gave me headaches. I started researching flower vapes with my hunt focused on a device that would not be harsh on my throat. I decided on the Tafee Bowle for my 1st dry herb vape and am really pleased with it. No lung or throat irritation AT ALL, and no more headaches. As a matter of fact, the vapor feels cool going in. It is SUPER easy to draw from, unrestricted which is usually not the case I've heard about pure convection vapes. There is a thread on it. People are raving about it. Again, it's my 1st dry herb vape so I can't compare it to anything but I absolutely would not feel the need to use it through water.

Thank you for the recommendation! I have a similar (in some ways) desktop vape, but that does look like an interesting portable option. I really like pure convection, and low temps are really important (for me). Cheers!

 

[shredder]

So, I’ve been thinking about this, partially because high CBDa hemp is very inexpensive at the moment and easily available. Can you do a normal low temperature extraction to capture CBDa in a useable form? Seems a glycerine tincture without decarbing could work, or getting a CBDa concentrate and dispersing in oil?

Are CBDa products available or recommend by folks here?

I grow cannatonic #4. It's a high cbd, low thc plant. After harvest I make almost all of it into rosin. And I use the rosin along with thc concentrates in our medibles. I have never tested the rosin itself but I suspect there is at least some cbda in it. I press at 190F, but under a lot of pressure.

If I were to extract just for cbda, a low temperature, long time infusion seems best, something like a sous vide infusion, or using cold alcohol.

I stay away from trying to extract with glycerine, it just is not efficient at all. Been there, done that. Oils or alcohol are much better at extracting.

Ive never bought any cbd product, so I can't give any advice commercial products.

 

[DRCousCous]

I grow cannatonic #4. It's a high cbd, low thc plant. After harvest I make almost all of it into rosin. And I use the rosin along with thc concentrates in our medibles. I have never tested the rosin itself but I suspect there is at least some cbda in it. I press at 190F, but under a lot of pressure.

If I were to extract just for cbda, a low temperature, long time infusion seems best, something like a sous vide infusion, or using cold alcohol.

I stay away from trying to extract with glycerine, it just is not efficient at all. Been there, done that. Oils or alcohol are much better at extracting.

Ive never bought any cbd product, so I can't give any advice commercial products.

I don’t buy anything but CBD bud myself. Don’t trust most and can’t afford dispensary bud. And I’m not currently in a position to grow my own, unfortunately.

I am not a fan of glycerine either. You can get very potent tinctures, but it requires months and a lot of stirring and babying and re-steeping and...

I mostly use coconut oil these days, plenty of saturated fats to grab the beneficials. And I’m pretty sure you could use a low temp bath (sous vide) to melt the coco and get near full extraction. I’ve also been considering lab heat plates with magnetic stirrers. Cheaper (and maybe more efficient) than a sous vide. I avoid ethanol due to recovering alcoholics in the household.

I have an ounce of some OK hemp bud I wouldn’t mind using up, so I might give it a shot and report back. Have you ever done testing?

also, and I swear it is the last q... where do your get your seeds, and do you grow clones, autos, fems, or from seed for breeding?

 

[kapows]

I grow cannatonic #4. It's a high cbd, low thc plant. After harvest I make almost all of it into rosin. And I use the rosin along with thc concentrates in our medibles. I have never tested the rosin itself but I suspect there is at least some cbda in it. I press at 190F, but under a lot of pressure.

If I were to extract just for cbda, a low temperature, long time infusion seems best, something like a sous vide infusion, or using cold alcohol.

I stay away from trying to extract with glycerine, it just is not efficient at all. Been there, done that. Oils or alcohol are much better at extracting.

Ive never bought any cbd product, so I can't give any advice commercial products.

you in the uk?

 

[shredder]

I mostly use coconut oil these days, plenty of saturated fats to grab the beneficials. And I’m pretty sure you could use a low temp bath (sous vide) to melt the coco and get near full extraction. I’ve also been considering lab heat plates with magnetic stirrers. Cheaper (and maybe more efficient) than a sous vide. I avoid ethanol due to recovering alcoholics in the household.

I have an ounce of some OK hemp bud I wouldn’t mind using up, so I might give it a shot and report back. Have you ever done testing?

also, and I swear it is the last q... where do your get your seeds, and do you grow clones, autos, fems, or from seed for breeding?

You might want to look into mct oil as well. It stays liquid at room temps and is pretty neutral tasting. I made a strong infusion with mct and feco. I can actually feel the effects in 15 minutes if I put a few drops in my morning coffee.

I've never worked with hemp, just one cbd plant, cannatonic #4. The buds tested at 15% cbd and .5% thc.
I got the cutting that started my grow from another grower at our local compassion club. It has since disbanded after my state became legal. Most of my other plants came from a small circle of friends that grow and occasionally I'll purchase seeds online. If I like a plant I take cuttings from it to grow more of that variety. Ive grown cannatonic for 7 years running. And I share with other growers that need cuttings.

you in the uk?

Nope, I live in Michigan, USA.

My state has been legal several years now.

 

[MegaMan2k]

@shredder thats awsome, i used to have that plant around few years back and was making rosin from it aswell, the edibles i made from that rosin had some serious medical value, i also dabbed the rosin and the terps was crazy, Juanita la Lagrimosa

 

[DRCousCous]

@shredder thats awsome, i used to have that plant around few years back and was making rosin from it aswell, the edibles i made from that rosin had some serious medical value, i also dabbed the rosin and the terps was crazy, Juanita la Lagrimosa

Is that an EU only strain? Looks right up my alley, and I'm slowly planning my first grow for later this year.

 

[Cheebsy]

I believe @shredder is state side... I've just had a quick look and there are some cannatonic crosses listed on seeds here now

 

[MegaMan2k]

Is that an EU only strain? Looks right up my alley, and I'm slowly planning my first grow for later this year.

the breeder is called resin seeds, im not sure if they are european or us based.

 

[cvs8floz]

@shredder thats awsome, i used to have that plant around few years back and was making rosin from it aswell, the edibles i made from that rosin had some serious medical value, i also dabbed the rosin and the terps was crazy, Juanita la Lagrimosa

This strain is sold by Elite Seeds out of Spain, I just finished growing one of their La Rica auto seeds, advertised as 1:1 CBD/THC. I am getting more and more into the 1:1 strains, they used to be my base followed by something heavier to cap the night, I now find that they get me pleasantly high, sometimes even more high than the heavy hitters. Pyramid Seeds Northern Lights CBD and Sensi #743 are other good ones, the latter is adverised as 2:1 THC/CBD and has an amazing scent.

 

[Jimmyweaese]

For those of you out there treating chronic pain with cannabis I am wondering if you still use prescription pain medication along with your cannabis to help either manage the daily pain or manage breakthrough pain? Also what medications do you use and what kind of chronic pain do you have?

I recently had to go visit my doctor to get a prescription for pain medication to manage my daily and breakthrough pain. I have severe osteoarthritis of the tmj (temporomandibular joint) and displaced disc that requires surgery to have it put back. I also have arthritis throughout other parts of my body but nowhere as severe as my TMJ. Basically I am in pain all day every day with breakthrough pain a few times a week depending on how active I am and how stressed I am.

I have a script for 2grams a day of cannabis from my prescribing Doctor and have been needed to pepper in some Tylenol 3 here and there to help manage the pain. I used to take 4-5 Percocet a day just to manage the pain before switching to medicinal cannabis. My doctor initially was going to prescribe those again, but I asked for Tylenol 3 instead to see if I can get by with less.

What I am essentially getting to is if your pain is effectively managed with just cannabis or do you also need prescription pain meds to get through your days? How do you feel about using the prescription meds?

Vape the distillate

 

[ginolicious]

I’ll tell you cannabis or well CBD don’t seem to work for my carpal tunnel they decided to kick in just now.

 

[MyCollie]

I am on somewhat high doses of opiates. I take 20mg of OxyContin 2x a day and anywhere from 10-50mgs of Oxycodone throughout the day as needed. I take a muscle relaxer and also gabapentin. I have metastatic bone disease and multiple pulmonary metastasis. One of the oncologists (I have three, sometimes four if I’m undergoing radiation), says the next step in medication would make me sleep all day and not be functional at all. I’ll meet with interventional radiology next.

Concentrates help and RSO does too. I don’t believe that the RSO will cure cancer but it’s potent and the price is right. I no longer use flower due to odor and the fact that I live in a stodgy condominium and the neighbors wouldn’t approve if they smelled anything. I’m at the point of saying fuck them though. I’m probably looking at 6-12 months. It sucks.

I might make some rice crispy treats using the Ardent to Decarb and the MBM to mix it all up.

I need to explore more than THC and CBD. I’ve had success with CBN so I’ll try more of that.

 

[Tranquility]

Pain and cannabis is a weird issue. There are some who say there is a correct dosage in that too little does not help and too much can hurt. You have to dose in the zone. Some prefer to microdose rather than macrodose.
MEDICAL MARIJUANA STUDY REVEALS A MAJOR FLAW IN USING THC FOR PAIN RELIEF

MARIJUANA MICRODOSING STUDY CONFIRMS PAIN BENEFITS

It's probably better to smoke/vape than to orally use, because of predictability of results. Also, some pain is better addressed by cannabis than others:
Cannabis and Cannabinoids for Chronic Pain

I mean, it's not like it's going to hurt you:
Cannabinoids in the management of difficult to treat pain

For true neuropathy, only 6-10% of conventional pain medication works and cannabis does not seem any better and is disfavored:
Cannabis-based medicines for chronic neuropathic pain in adults

Pain experts statement on cannabis. (Hint: They'd rather more toxic drugs but accept there may be some anecdotal evidence for cannabis.)
IASP Position Statement on the Use of Cannabinoids to Treat Pain

 

[Alexis]

I am on somewhat high doses of opiates. I take 20mg of OxyContin 2x a day and anywhere from 10-50mgs of Oxycodone throughout the day as needed. I take a muscle relaxer and also gabapentin. I have metastatic bone disease and multiple pulmonary metastasis. One of the oncologists (I have three, sometimes four if I’m undergoing radiation), says the next step in medication would make me sleep all day and not be functional at all. I’ll meet with interventional radiology next.

Concentrates help and RSO does too. I don’t believe that the RSO will cure cancer but it’s potent and the price is right. I no longer use flower due to odor and the fact that I live in a stodgy condominium and the neighbors wouldn’t approve if they smelled anything. I’m at the point of saying fuck them though. I’m probably looking at 6-12 months. It sucks.

I might make some rice crispy treats using the Ardent to Decarb and the MBM to mix it all up.

I need to explore more than THC and CBD. I’ve had success with CBN so I’ll try more of that.

Try kava I swear. For pain, stress, anxiety, mood, feelgood, sleep.

Just never mix with alcohol. Goes very well with cannabis in that it removes all or any anxiety from THC, enabling a more relaxed body and mind without nullifying anything.

Kava has a sedative nature though, but is by definition like Cannabis a plant psychedelic, just more subtly so in that sense, more body and mental than visual, but visual too.

I use kava for extreme anxiety from physical infection related nerve damage.

i really would go spare mentally without it.

But when I have had injuries, Kava has helped massively to wash away discomfort and pain.

If you are in US you have every top kava vendor on your doorstep too.

Only a few ship to UK where kava is decreed to not be safe for human consumption but is legal to buy and fill a wardrobe with lol, so the Greyhound drinks loads of the stuff.

 

[Philabrookla]

Seconded kava, its a pretty strong muscle relaxer that really numbs any pain if you dose it right.


I have friends who live in stodgy apartments and little by little they have stopped being paranoid about the smell. If ANYONE else living there smokes cannabis and is more careless than you, then your vaporizing is probably not going to be noticed by comparison. And if it does get noticed, you have rights and will likely only get a warning. I don't want to say life's too short but it seems you have a good sense of humor. Get a nice fan-powered carbon filter and blow your hits into it if it does become an issue with the neighbors.

 

[Alexis]

Or get a pet skunk or two?

That is what skunks are really for right?

 

[DRCousCous]

Hi everyone, just dipping back into the conversation. I have a constant, it seems, fluctuation between micro- and macro-dosing for pain depending on how miserable I am. I'm transiting out of a "less miserable micro" regime to a "oh fuck me lets do some serious macrodosing" regime. My neurological movement disorder (SPS) is playing hell with the nerves, muscles, and joints last couple of weeks. What I've learned about relearning macrodosing this week:

• a combination of ABV-based edibles, a mix of THC, CBD, and CBG cannabis through convection vapes, oilpens, and dabbing can add up to some serious macrodosing
• It doesn't actually treat the pain very well for me (except neuropathic pain, for which the THC:CBD:CBG combo is golden), but it helps and is very distracting
• most importantly from last week: do not take diphenhydramine along with my primary meds and cannabis! EVER (except under direct medical supervision)

The primary medications to treat my symptoms are benzos and muscle relaxers. I've learned to balance the benzos, muscle relaxers, and cannabis so that I'm mostly functional most of the time. Well, turns out adding nighttime cold medicine to the mix ain't smart: my wife couldn't wake me last night and nearly called 911. She was shaking and yelling and totally freaked out because my nap became... deep sleep. Or something.

Anyhow, the other thing I'm working on this week is transitioning back to macro-dosing and dealing with the whole "being high" part of cannabis. I'm not a big fan of being high (although I'll take couchlock stoned any day when the pain is bad), which I know is weird, but it's true. Turns out diphenhydramine, benzos, and cannabis also makes me really high sigh.

What do you all do when the chronic or acute pain gets really bad? Does anybody else try to minimize the whole getting high part of getting high? If so, how do you manage that (other than tolerance building, which I've neglected for the last month or two)?

 

[Robert-in-YEG]

For those of you out there treating chronic pain with cannabis I am wondering if you still use prescription pain medication along with your cannabis to help either manage the daily pain or manage breakthrough pain? Also what medications do you use and what kind of chronic pain do you have?

I recently had to go visit my doctor to get a prescription for pain medication to manage my daily and breakthrough pain. I have severe osteoarthritis of the tmj (temporomandibular joint) and displaced disc that requires surgery to have it put back. I also have arthritis throughout other parts of my body but nowhere as severe as my TMJ. Basically I am in pain all day every day with breakthrough pain a few times a week depending on how active I am and how stressed I am.

I have a script for 2grams a day of cannabis from my prescribing Doctor and have been needed to pepper in some Tylenol 3 here and there to help manage the pain. I used to take 4-5 Percocet a day just to manage the pain before switching to medicinal cannabis. My doctor initially was going to prescribe those again, but I asked for Tylenol 3 instead to see if I can get by with less.

What I am essentially getting to is if your pain is effectively managed with just cannabis or do you also need prescription pain meds to get through your days? How do you feel about using the prescription meds?

Every person is different. For me, migraines have been a part of my life for more than 40 years.

For the longest time, I used Tylenol w/8mg of codeine. These are still available in Canada, but not all pharmacies stock them. Going back nearly 20 years, I used Tylenol 3 or Tylenol 4. I eventually reached a point were I couldn't tell if I had a migraine or if I was in withdrawal. In 2007, I stopped taking opiates completely. I was a lucky one in that withdrawal was about a week of discomfort. I still used Tylenol and aspirin, jus without codeine. At worst, I was taking 12 Tylenol/day, plus as much aspirin as my stomach could handle.

Ultimately, I had to stop taking Tylenol. My liver just couldn't take anymore.

If I am vaping weed in my Solo II, I can stretch 2 grams to last a day. Using my Starry or Fog, I need 3-4 grams to last the day.

The only thing I can suggest, is try to find a pain management doctor.

Robert-in-YEG

 

[Fat Freddy]

https://www.cato.org/blog/hulus-dopesick-revives-false-narrative-pain-patients-will-suffer