On Patents and Induction Heaters

[VGOODIEZ]

Ok so here is what I have found out. First off, I am absolutely SHOCKED a moderator chose to make this a new thread based on statement provided and lack of information/proof to back up such a statement. In a community that promotes harmony, it seems this was set up to be just the opposite of that.

So in speaking with @vaping fans they maintain there was no violation of intellectual property. Dynavap has also come back now and stated they are not interest in pursuing any concerns. So there you have it. A big waste of time. Community members getting upset on behalf of Dynavap when not even Dynavap themselves is upset. And other members have already pointed out the hypocrisy otherwise.

Now that said, it's not all bad. I did get an opportunity to see how @vaping fans would react to all of this. To see how they would react to the community members who contacted them directly with concerns. Let's just say they didn't do so well here. So bad in fact that it's doubtful VGoodiez will purchase more UFO IH's or much else for that matter. This is unfortunate because they are deeply engrained in this industry having business with manufacturers and retailers who specialize in vaporizers (way more than you know folks). It's not to say there are not alternatives. I will be seeking them out for items like glass accessories, but it sure will be a pain in the ass for me to do so. But I will because I do care about this community. I do care about honest business. It's the reason I was late to the party purchasing anything from this company after years of my competition buying and selling knock off products. Frodo and I had a lot of talk about knock off's too. Again there is influence and there are direct rip off's. They have a little of both in their portfolio but I made sure he knew what he was doing to hurt smaller artists was not cool and the community would not accept it.

IMO this thread should be closed now. Again I question why it was opened with the conjecture provided.

 

[scy123]

Ok so here is what I have found out. First off, I am absolutely SHOCKED a moderator chose to make this a new thread based on statement provided and lack of information/proof to back us such a statement. In a community that promotes harmony, it seems this was set up to be just the opposite of that.

I feel like this thread was totally justified.

I was actually hesitant on posting my thoughts in the original thread cause it would have been way off topic and not fair to those just wanting to post about the actual product.

I am actually just posting here cause I felt wronged in the past and didn't feel any harmony when announcing my possible product.

 

[VGOODIEZ]

I feel like this thread was totally justified.

I was actually hesitant on posting my thoughts in the original thread cause it would have been way off topic and not fair to those just wanting to post about the actual product.

I am actually just posting here cause I felt wronged in the past and didn't feel any harmony when announcing my possible product.

I'm not saying there is no value in a discussion on knock off products but I just feel if people are going to make accusations there should be some substance there.

 

[kel]

Fantastic, this is the best possible outcome - thank you

I am absolutely fucking delighted that DV are not what I feared they might turn out to be.... honestly, it is a HUGE relief!!

Don't see the problem with the thread myself.

Edit: Ahh yes, the unfounded accusations is definitely out of order!! As has been my position throughout - actually the only position I really care about, I have been on the receiving end of similar and it's a terrible feeling/experience!

 

[scy123]

However we feel, I am glad you got to the bottom of it, which would of been more work than I would have done.

Big thumbs up for the clarity.

 

[kel]

Despite everything I don't want @TommyDee to feel bad, well, not too bad anyway!

I do think something by way of an apology on the UFO thread is probably owing, but not going to press it.

To be clear, the apology would be for the unfounded accusations - nothing else.

Even though we profoundly disagree I fully recognise the right to hold and express the viewpoint that patents are a force for good.

(excuse me, I need drink of water to clear my throat hehe)

 

[Tranquility]

I'm not saying there is no value in a discussion on knock off products but I just feel if people are going to make accusations there should be some substance there.

Since I'm already pretty much banned, I'll talk of moderation. (In violation of the rules.) This is what I've been warning about for quite a while to the moderators here. Right now, Section 230 would probably be a pretty good defense to being sued for a potential libel for something written by a user of this blog. That is, as long as the moderators followed the dictates of 230. People are starting to look at those protections and recognize there is a difference between a phone company that allows all speech and a billboard that only allows some speech. At some point in the continuum of "moderation", the owner of the company/billboard is no longer just transmitting the speech of the users, but is "publishing" the speech of the users.

This makes a difference in defamation law.

And, accusing someone of stealing another's invention is going to be defamatory. As to if it rises to defamation would depend on many possible defenses. The main ones in a case like this would be "truth" and/or "opinion". Opinion would probably not fly as ALL defamation is pretty much someone's opinion and the defense is much more than just claiming what one said was one's opinion. Truth is much harder and tens of thousands of dollars away if you get sued. And, as @kel implied, strictly speaking, without a suit won by the patent holder against the person accused, NO ONE *knows* if someone infringed on the patent. Because the speech revolved around stealing rather than infringing, a crime is being alleged and the victim does not have to prove damages.

Because it seems to me people in the industry work here and we have at least one example of a potential direct business loss to the entity accused of theft by a user; someday, somewhere, some of the publishers of such potentially defamatory speech are going to get sued by a manufacturer.

I agree with @VGOODIEZ, out of an abundance of caution, if a moderator, *I* would not have created a new thread. Pulling out a discussion in a longer thread and putting it in its own thread with a new headline, seems to have caused the potentially defamatory statement(s) to be noticed by more members of the community. The discussion? Fine. Let people talk. 230 protections have been shown to be relatively strong. But, the more control by the owner of the board, the more risk.

 

[TommyDee]

... Dynavap has also come back now and stated they are not interest in pursuing any concerns. ...

That is my vindication and validation. Thank you again @VGOODIEZ for getting the straight story. These words say there was reason for concern, simply not pursued.

And it was not me that stirred the pot, This is @kel 's thread. He wanted to read words backwards. I know these devices are a knockoff of Orion and that was my original input in my comment before it got skewed into a different agenda - patent law.

George and Dynatec got screwed in China and every purchase is a knock on Dynavap. And this too comes through in words in your reply @VGOODIEZ . Dynavap has written this matter off but it is certainly not forgotten.

Do I have to drop this because George found peace with it? My moral compass is based on what -I- believe, not how others feel I should believe.

 

[scy123]

Pipes is my hero in this story.

inductions heaters that are 100% public domain.

and how he stays quite in the storm is stilll something I must master.

 

[TommyDee]

Speaking of which - what are you planning to do with that MFLB adapter that so many people are screaming for?

 

[scy123]

You are the one braging about it……. Wtf?

I just posted that I may sell some and told you the recipe.

 

[TommyDee]

LOL no, I am saying my moral compass always made sure to point out that you, @scy123 - are the concept inventor.
This is the -right- thing to do even if it takes the little extra effort to add the paragraph and references.
Show me one time I have failed to give credit where credit is due - this thread has me questioning if that effort is even warranted.
Since I already know myself, what do you think?

 

[scy123]

I cannot continue cause this is not the topic of this thread. I will 100% answer all concerns through the proper channels.


I got the information I needed from that though. About 99% of people don’t want to diy. And even if diy cost $10 they would. Much more rather pay $60 for a guarantee of workmanship.

 

[TommyDee]

So anyone can go into production? We're talking IP right?

 

[scy123]

how is that even a question that needs an answer from anybody.

edit~ ok I will entertain you, the adaptor is now public domain along with pipes ih heaters

 

[TommyDee]

Because according to this thread, no patent means you don't own shit. And I don't believe that.

 

[scy123]

Because according to this thread, no patent means you don't own shit. And I don't believe that.

Bro, im just gonna stop now before you disturb my balance.

 

[kel]

That is my vindication and validation. Thank you again @VGOODIEZ for getting the straight story. These words say there was reason for concern, simply not pursued.

And it was not me that stirred the pot, This is @kel 's thread. He wanted to read words backwards. I know these devices are a knockoff of Orion and that was my original input in my comment before it got skewed into a different agenda - patent law.

George and Dynatec got screwed in China and every purchase is a knock on Dynavap. And this too comes through in words in your reply @VGOODIEZ . Dynavap has written this matter off but it is certainly not forgotten.

Do I have to drop this because George found peace with it? My moral compass is based on what -I- believe, not how others feel I should believe.

Oh well... what a very sad end to a very sad story about a very sad loser.

What I actually did was call you out on your mortally reprehensible behaviour of calling someone, actually everyone, thieves without any evidence whatsoever, evidence which still does not exist in any meaningful sense of the word.

Furthermore, everyone except you now knows this evidence probably won't ever exist because there isn't enough cause for concern to pursue the matter, i.e. no crime has taken place.

You're merely attempting, and failing, to stretch and twist the words to suit the narrative that only exists in your own mind.

What was actually said was that DV are 'not interest in pursuing any concerns'.

I understand that English may not be your first language, but your interpretation of what was said, is a stretch at best, and quite frankly, taken in context and applied in a practical manner - flat out wrong.

That they are 'not interested in pursuing any concerns' is a solid confirmation of there being no concerns to pursue because they simply don't care. The presumably spend their time literally doing better things, as at this point we all should be.

I guess there is one concern, that's yours, you are the only one with a concern; I guess it would also be a reasonable comprehension of the phrase that DV were not interested in pursuing your concern. Still the same outcome though - no concern to be pursued!

But no, it has to be your interpretation to make your personal narrative make sense... okay buddy!! You go with that if it makes you happy.

I did not want this thread, it most certainly is not my thread, I do not own it and I did not create it. This thread only exists because you accused people of crimes without evidence and were rightly and justly challenged on that.

You created this shitshow. No one else.

I was simply present enough to stand up to your bullying and while I take no pleasure in it, I have been proven correct in my assertions, there is no concern.

Why did I stand up here? Because I created the UFO thread and I can not abide bullies who go around making unfounded accusations. That's it.

You're not vindicated or validated. You have just confirmed that you are incapable of understanding patents and how they actually work. Please go and re-read the link I posted, or any of the other posts here that confirm that patent violations are not like your absurd comparisons to other crimes like murder, and only become a crime when they are proven to be so in an appropriate court. This was, is and will remain the only mechanism by which a patent violation can be established.

Your inability (refusal? I struggle to believe anyone could be so obtuse) to comprehend this simple but critical fact is embarrassing to say the least.

Did I remember correctly that you do this for work? If so, god help your employers, customers, or whomever else you are representing.

The saddest part of all this, is despite a generous nature and a gentle push to go and make a rightful apology for accusing a company of a crime we now know beyond all reasonable doubt that they have not committed, you consider your own interpretation of these non-events, that only exist in your mind as actual reality and your moral stance based on these fictions to be above that of everyone else.

Everyone wins here, the community gets to carry on as it was, vibrant, healthy, innovative, fun... actually really quite extraordinary!

Everyone except Mr. Dee, who gets from this... I don't know what exactly...

Tragic.

Shrugs... I will go and make an apology on the UFO thread on your behalf and let everyone there know that your accusations are baseless and malicious.

Thanks for being so, erm, illuminating, now ... where's that ignore button, I have never had to use it before here,I suppose there's a first time for everything...

 

[Vasgas]

Ok so here is what I have found out. First off, I am absolutely SHOCKED a moderator chose to make this a new thread based on statement provided and lack of information/proof to back up such a statement. In a community that promotes harmony, it seems this was set up to be just the opposite of that.

Don't see the issue here, especially for something so obvious.

So in speaking with @vaping fans they maintain there was no violation of intellectual property.

What a surprise?

Dynavap has also come back now and stated they are not interest in pursuing any concerns. So there you have it. A big waste of time. Community members getting upset on behalf of Dynavap when not even Dynavap themselves is upset. And other members have already pointed out the hypocrisy otherwise.

Huh? I was never upset for DV. Cant speak for others though. This is about one crooked company, located on planet earth. Simple as that. Where is the hypocrisy?

Now that said, it's not all bad. I did get an opportunity to see how @vaping fans would react to all of this. To see how they would react to the community members who contacted them directly with concerns. Let's just say they didn't do so well here. So bad in fact that it's doubtful VGoodiez will purchase more UFO IH's or much else for that matter.

Happy to hear that. But it's quite an understatement, to say that they're just having reaction issues.

This is unfortunate because they are deeply engrained in this industry having business with manufacturers and retailers who specialize in vaporizers (way more than you know folks).

Looks like it could be our problem then, on a community level? Of the possibly thousands of Chinese suppliers, we chose this one? I bet there are a ton, who would not blatantly disrespect their customers/ community they serve.

It's not to say there are not alternatives. I will be seeking them out for items like glass accessories, but it sure will be a pain in the ass for me to do so. But I will because I do care about this community. I do care about honest business. It's the reason I was late to the party purchasing anything from this company after years of my competition buying and selling knock off products. Frodo and I had a lot of talk about knock off's too. Again there is influence and there are direct rip off's. They have a little of both in their portfolio but I made sure he knew what he was doing to hurt smaller artists was not cool and the community would not accept it.

IMO this thread should be closed now. Again I question why it was opened with the conjecture provided.

There are too many alternatives imo based on logic alone. Is it not still a buyers market, when buying from China?

No reason to close this thread imo. I'd like to be reminded of who vapingfans really are, in case i forget it down the road lol. I won't be giving them a cent, and will try to avoid companies who do.

 

[badbee]

Apart from all the philosophical differences in this thread there seems to be a lot of misunderstandings of what patents represent. A patent doesn't prove you have the right to a design or technology and isn't a government issued proof that the thing patented is original or significant or that it works as intended. It's simply a registration of documents with a signoff by the patent office that they are not aware of an identical set of documents. Most patents are not enforceable because the design wasn't the first of it's kind, isn't actually unique and unobvious or the description doesn't properly and precisely describe the design. The patent office doesn't have the time, expertise or mandate to verify all these things. They are only registering what you claim to be true, they don't verify it actually is true.

The only way to determine if a patent is enforceable is to go to court and try to prove your claims. If two people claim ownership it comes down to who designed it first, or more correctly, who can prove they designed it first. Patents are a very effective way of establishing that date of design, especially if the other guy doesn't have formal engineering docs with verifiable dates. If the other guy can prove an earlier design date you lose your patent.

My point is don't think of patents as proof of "final" ownership or a license from the government to make something. It's just proof that you have made a claim to be an inventor and made that claim on a specific date. Others may feel those claims are invalid and are entirely within their legal rights to produce a competing product and contest the issue, at the risk of having to turn over the income made should they lose the dispute.

 

[Vasgas]

Apart from all the philosophical differences in this thread there seems to be a lot of misunderstandings of what patents represent. A patent doesn't prove you have the right to a design or technology and isn't a government issued proof that the thing patented is original or significant or that it works as intended. It's simply a registration of documents with a signoff by the patent office that they are not aware of an identical set of documents. Most patents are not enforceable because the design wasn't the first of it's kind, isn't actually unique and unobvious or the description doesn't properly and precisely describe the design. The patent office doesn't have the time, expertise or mandate to verify all these things. They are only registering what you claim to be true, they don't verify it actually is true.

The only way to determine if a patent is enforceable is to go to court and try to prove your claims. If two people claim ownership it comes down to who designed it first, or more correctly, who can prove they designed it first. Patents are a very effective way of establishing that date of design, especially if the other guy doesn't have formal engineering docs with verifiable dates. If the other guy can prove an earlier design date you lose your patent.

My point is don't think of patents as proof of "final" ownership or a license from the government to make something. It's just proof that you have made a claim to be an inventor and made that claim on a specific date. Others may feel those claims are invalid and are entirely within their legal rights to produce a competing product and contest the issue, at the risk of having to turn over the income made should they lose the dispute.

You're right and thanks for the logical explanation. Your post also made me realize I am way off topic. This thread is about patents and IH. Not about one particular vendor. Note I did not say manufacturer because vapingfans most likely do not produce anything themselves. There isn't a single company on Alibaba that makes electronics, metal and glass under one roof. So this is likely a middleman trading company.

I apologize for my off topic but will not delete it, as I meant what i said. I will however, refrain from doing so again. I'm very sorry. Gonna have to set a rule, no FC posting when super baked

 

[scy123]

Dam is this thread still going?

I just skim the catch parses now, which is mildly amusing

I can stand to hear more.

 

[TommyDee]

Some things have changed @badbee -

The 2013 portion of the new patent law has new standards for who gets to file a patent. In the past, it was the first person to invent a new and useful thing. Now, it's the first person to file the patent.

I didn't believe this either but it was independently confirmed.

If you want to read more - https://www.thebalancesmb.com/patents-and-law-changes-4129363
I figure that's better than posting the whole thing. Pretty descriptive and up to date.

I need to go file a patent on the 510 MFLB adapter LOL That's where I was going @scy123 .
Yes, patent law is cut-throat. That is why you want the piece of paper if you actually got something to protect.
George's application for what is essentially a Dynacup gives him rights even if someone else in the USA tried to sell a violation of that patent. Not all patent claims are summarily accepted and all can be challenged in court but the patent can still stand on the remaining merits. However, the USA manufacturer that knowingly copied ideas from other patents can be found liable after the patent has been issued. Knowingly is where all the smoke and mirrors come into the court drama.

A lot of my career has been the healthy sport of patent busting. We were not even allowed to look at other patents unless a legal team issued it to you. That is how serious some organizations are with their IP and the need to have access to a novel invention. it put the best minds in a room to find a way out, not with simple legal ease but with smarts to build a better mousetrap. And you are already up against the brightest.

And yes, patents are for those applications that once revealed, are obvious. If you can bake your IP into a unrecognizable mess that does something, you wouldn't go putting that into what would eventually become public domain. Although public, willful violation will still get you a ruling against you. The sad part is that this is USA law for USA patents. All the world can see our patents and act on them with impunity. There should still be a penalty imposed for those entities that sell within the USA with import bans. I haven't gone back to confirm that. International patent are just a higher level of protection that are supported by those host countries. Lawyers love international patents as you have to address each country that is willing to accept your documents.

 

[scy123]

What Can't Be Patented?​

 

[TommyDee]

What Can't Be Patented?​

The USPTO says you can't patent something if:


It already exists or has been sold. If you want to patent something, don't make it and sell it to the public before you file the patent application. There may be some leeway on this if the product is disclosed "a year or less before the effective filing date," but don't count on it.


It was "otherwise available to the public," which includes showing it in a presentation or demonstration or talking about it on a talk show, a video, or a website.

Don't get ahead of yourself; patent first, then talk about it.

It was already patented. The invention you are claiming a patent for something, If there is a previous patent application that was filed by another inventor before you, you're out of luck.

It was "otherwise available to the public, - this is why I make everything public to which I have a right to make public.