On Patents and Induction Heaters

[YLLVAPE OFFICAL]

Seen this?
Says on the site,
Patented Detection Hardware
But whose?...What is that Sense IH coming out?
View attachment 12962

RANGER IH

The Ranger features adjustable wattage with aggressive heat prevention utilizing real time temp checks. The Ranger allows for even and adjustable heat up for your DynaVap. 3 Internal 14500 Batteries USB-C Charge Digital Power Control Sesh Counter Full Metal Casing Powerful Center Magnet...

www.thesourcev.com

Hello FC Members,

I am the maker of Ranger (yll induction heater), Our team has started working on this induction long time ago since early 2020. As a manufacturer, especially this heater is for use with Dynvape, kinda contribution to the DynaVersa, we surely respect DV intellectual property. I am trying to contact Jason ( DV) to know more what happened exactly on UFO heater with DV patent, to see anything that our team could aviod in case of infriging DV efforts. I will keep you guys updated.

I deeply know how hard to develop a product, especially for Dynavap team. Like my IH, we have been tried many methods to test the temperature like IR( Infared Ray), and program calculation, but failed ( Sense has good success on IR). So we finally come up with this new temp sensing solution ( put the senor under the coil, to have direct contact with the cap bottom which is accurate), and we are working on the patent applying now. Sense uses totally different solution, and there are good things to be said for both, big plus: Sense has replaceable batteries Not know a lot about UFO ( just information from instagram and FC), but since many ppl are talking about it without clear expanation from DV or VapingFans, lets just calm down and wait for this. Patent aside, UFO seems a good IH, doesn't it?

I will send a sample to DV for the evaluation of the product and license from DynaVap. Hope I can get it soon later.

Any question, just hit me up on FC or Instagram (yllvapesales)

Kind Regards
Mike

 

[scy123]

Another member in a position to get to the bottom of this.

Keep in mind their is supposedly a tea time or something happening in a few hours if I understand correctly they will answer question.

Tits are jacked lmao

 

[kel]

I poopoo'd on his thread and he didn't like it and went on the attack.

I didn't address this earlier because I wanted to give it some thought, and for once I agree with Mr. Dee, at least on two of the three points made in this cutting statement.

I have deliberately kept the 'personal accusations' aspect of the original post that started this out of this discussion so far, but this seems like I am left with no choice but to comment on it, as Mr. Dee has brought it up:

1) 'I poopoo'd on his thread'

Yep, you pulled your pants down, showed us your your ass and took a shit for all the world to see.​

​

Seriously, thanks for admitting this, it really does help qualify the context within which this whole discussion has taken place and confirms that this was (as I have half suspected all along and been ignoring), actually also a personal attack - nice ​

​

You have just admitted you knew exactly what you were doing. Up until this point I had given the benefit of the doubt and allowed the possibility that this was just an unfortunate side effect. No more. I feel even more vindicated and validated in everything I have said here. Thanks for that.​

2) 'he didn't like it'

Absolutely correct, I mean who in their right mind would 'like' being accused of promoting stolen tech? And without any evidence?​

This is offensive and anti-social and goes against the rule of this forum that I have recently been awarded a 'point' for violating - unless anyone can claim that this is 'nice behaviour' - can't see it myself, lets see shall we...​

​

How you would respond should I just randomly go around accusing you of criminal activity? Would you be okay with it or...​

3) 'and went on the attack'

​

...would you go on the defence?​

​

Oh yes... you better believe I am defending myself. Seriously out of order.​

If you are going to accuse me of something, you damn well better have the evidence you need to back it up.​

​

Dear reader, please note... There is *still* no evidence any crime has taken place, in 7 pages of narcissistic drivel from Mr. Dee. none whatsoever.​

​

I once again reiterate my only genuine concern here, why do you think it is okay to go round accusing people of crimes you clearly can't prove have taken place?​

​

The truth is it is you, Mr. Dee, who made the unprovoked attack - and for what? Your morals on not buying something - seriously - WTAF? I consider this to be amongst the most offensive behaviour I have encountered online, ever. I have had some shit in my time, but this is genuinely a first.​

​

The patent law you are using to qualify your accusations clearly and unambiguously has, as part of the fundamental premise of it's entire mode of operation, the absolute requirement of claim and proof in a court of law before any violation can be determined.​

Regardless of any 'confession' by VF, this point still stands, and I make no apology for standing by it as my defence against your unfounded and malicious accusations.​

Will you actually respond to this, nope. I can guarantee it, why? because that would mean admitting you are responsible and you just will not ever see this. You will ignore this post in it's entirety or pick one aspect of it you can find some 'fault' with and make it about that and not the overall big picture reality that you have 'thrown the cat amongst the pigeons' so to speak and there are consequences.

Shrugs, I really wish you had either not said anything, had the evidence to back up your claim, not acted so dishonourably by changing your position so many times or tried to twist my words to suit your way of viewing the world, but .. here we are!

See how, despite this bullshit... I am still calm as all fuck...

 

[scy123]

OMG I somehow missed that quote, but thanks for mentioning it.

No comment.

Good luck with trying any of that further.

 

[kel]

OMG I somehow missed that quote, but thanks for mentioning it.

No comment.

Good luck with trying any of that further.

It's quite outrageous, I have reported the original post now we know it was also a personal attack. What a balloon.

@Yllvape Induction Heater

I am sorry you feel the need to patent your development, and sickened that your time is being taken away from valuable development time to deal with the patent bullshit that others are perpetuating - this is a ridiculous waste of time, energy, resources that could be better utilised in well, almost any way imaginable, not least on your actual development.

I encourage you to investigate the reality of patent law and make an informed decision about it before wasting any more of your time.

There are hundreds of resources online that reveal why patents are a complete waste of time for nearly everyone.

Patents are for pussies! (sorry, I am being a dick but... still)

 

[scy123]

Yea, he even admits to shitting on threads

and he knows dam well that is the only reason I am posting here.

Sooooo gooooood

 

[phattpiggie]

Whilst you lot continue to bicker I actually did a bit of research.
Again I'll happily retract any of this if proven wrong.

we are working on the patent applying now

From this we can conclude that the statement Les Plenty linked from thesourcev.com, or to use the other name involved 1420.co, isn't quite true.

Patented Detection Hardware

It's one or the other.


It really doesn't take much to find connections in such a niche market.
Apologies if there are no connections but it certainly looks it.

How about the WDLX?
I don't think there will be many out there who would say that this heater isn't an Orion copy.
Especially given that it's near enough the same form factor, the UFO is a puck shape so conclusions are difficult without looking inside.
There were pictures of the WDLX pcb and again too close for comfort, IMO.
I couldn't support this company especially given that they sell their own titanium rod for £22.72.

Again the pictures of the heater pcb seem to have vanished but the Yllvape blue heater looked very similar to the WDLX, we can assume that the Source rebrand uses the blue heater pcb. The images showed the temp control board stacked above the heater.

This is the bit that made me think and again I'm sure the situation can be fully explained by @Yllvape Induction Heater.
Sorry but a link requires a sign in so here's a couple of pictures.

Scroll down Devin's page and you find this

The reason we have knock offs is because people buy them.
And the best way to beat them is to support the OG's, small businesses and manufacturers.

 

[kel]

Yep, seen it all before, these entities can not get the better of me these days...

And the best way to beat them is to support the OG's, small businesses and manufacturers.

Absolutely!

As I say, patents are a complete waste of everyones time and only put money in the pockets of the lawyers who tell you they are necessary!

I posted a few pages back about how the 'clone' market actually helps the entire community, not one single word from anyone about that... I think this is because it is true.

Patents just make people look churlish and weak, like they don't believe their product is strong enough to survive on it's own, they are born of FEAR UNCERTAINTY and DOUBT, etc... they are an embarrassment at absolute best imo.

As for the bickering, you're entitled to your opinion, but the personal attack aspect of this means I will not sit down. I will not be bullied, especially not by the likes of Mr. Dee. So, apologies if it comes across that way, but it is necessary unfortunately. I agree, it is very sad, hopefully it will end soon.

 

[phattpiggie]

Lost me a bit there @kel

Absolutely support the OG's and small businesses but support the 'clone' market, the very business that could destroy the OG or small business.
Take the bread and butter from one man's mouth because it helps the entire community.

As an example, I had another maker 'clone' one of my stems, an absolute blatant copy. How did that help the entire community?
I was nice when I messaged them and expressed my distaste.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the state of the patents industry and it makes a mockery of it all when Bobby Big Bolox tries to patent something that already exists. But I do feel that original idea patents are worth it, again to protect the small business or manufacturer.
No problem with others using the idea under license.

Don't get me wrong I detest bullies and liars but the bickering is boring, you are all going around in circles and nothing is going to be resolved.

 

[kel]

I am just going to ask questions and I hope you can answer honestly...

Did you go out of business? Go hungry? Suffer in any meaningful way?

I am guessing not... but of course I could be wrong!

So what exactly was the problem? I am asking very seriously, what was it about the blantant copy that hurt you?

It helps the community because there are just more products out there, increased awareness, cheaper options for those who can't afford the full price thing, etc etc,. Can you honestly say that someone, or many people, did not see the blatant copy and then not come and buy your product instead? How do you know?

I don't see any problem with messaging them and expressing distaste. I am curious - what happened?

Can you genuinely say that patenting your stem would have stopped this from happening?

I have said this before, there's loads of info out there on how patents hardly ever work, here is one example, there are hundreds more.

For Most Small Companies Patents Are Just About Worthless

A widespread meme in the tech community holds that patents are a path to riches: an entrepreneur who solves a key technical problem and receives a patent can build a business on the technology and ride to glory. IMHO, for most small companies today, patents are just about worthless. Many...

www.forbes.com

Someone even wrote a whole book about it, I have not read it, but the synopsis sounds very familiar:

Condividi la tua passione per la lettura - Anobii

www.anobii.com

As I say, patents are for people who don't understand how they work and are operating out of fear...

edit: I mean this last statement in the context of the idealistic notion that they somehow protect the small business owner / inventor - they really don't!

 

[LesPlenty]

I am the maker of Ranger

I look forward to seeing it released...please open a thread for it when you do as I really like everything IH (look up 'Portable Induction Bubble Hash Honker')
The more options the better and 3x18650 sounds like a good size (proprietary batteries suck)

 

[phattpiggie]

@kel did I go out of business or suffer, no.
Had I not nipped it in the bud would it have been okay for that maker to carry on making and selling 'clones' of my work?
That could certainly hurt my business.

I don't think you really get the point, ask the same question to anyone who produces unique pieces and see how the reply goes.
Funnily enough this particular maker has recently defended the rights of others not to have their work copied, pot kettle etc etc

It's flattering to see that I've inspired others in their work and humbling when they state the inspiration came from me.
Blatant copies are another thing and they evoke very different emotions. Difficult to express in words.

The stem in question was very unique and to have someone else reproduce it was in bad taste.
It also showed a very real lack of imagination on their part and no regard for the person that made the original.
No I didn't have anyone come to me after seeing the copy. I tend to make one-off pieces so I can say this with confidence.


As I said I'm not disagreeing with you on the parts of patents thing but cheaper copies do nothing but take money out of another person's pocket. The community benefits while the person with the original idea struggles. That's a shitty ethos.

I'm sure there will be as many pro-patent as anti-patent articles out there.


@LesPlenty I read '3 internal batteries' so don't hold your breath.

 

[kel]

How do you know I don't make unique pieces? Not vape related, but I am no spring chicken and have been around the houses so to speak.

I speak from first hand experience of the trauma, hatred, violence, destruction, etc. these battles cause. It's not nice.

The *only* thing that patents do at the level we are working at is turn people against each other, as the article I linked to says, patents are a sword not a shield!

If you register patents you are deliberately and intentionally declaring to the world that you intend to make war with anyone who dares to challenge your position. That is how they work. If you register a patent, and don't follow through on it and make a claim when you believe someone is violating it - then you're like the idiots who go round making idle threats.

If you arm yourself with a sword, you better be prepared to use it - or you're going to get laughed out of the room! Oh and by the way, swinging that sword around is *really* expensive. This is why companies charge #200 bucks for a tube perhaps?

The reality is, that the best and most financially safe way of challenging other's behaviour is to simply say, hey, come on, that's not cool! You don't need patents to do that. If it doesn't work, raising awareness within the community is another way to protect yourself. There are others. The only person who should ever do this is the person whose product has been copied - anyone else is just shit stirring.

The fact is - you DID nip it in the bud - no patent needed! I am not even sure why you are using it as an example here.

The discussion here is about patents, and for one off unique pieces this isn't appropriate.

Are you sure your work is not already, and automatically, protected as an artistic work under copyright law?

Ask yourself who it is that is writing the pro-patent articles... better still, go and look. I would wager it's not small businesses who have any first hand actual real world experience of how they work, or as is the case more often than not - they don't work.

I feel that I am being misunderstood, I am not saying that people don't have the right to protect their work, I am saying that patents are a really abysmally shit way to go about that as a small business owner.

I am also saying that I don't think that anyone really has the right to protect something as 'theirs' that is pretty much public domain already. That's a cunts trick.

I also want to see as many variants and options as possible, I believe that if your product is *good enough* then you will survive. If not you will go out of business... boo hoo... I am sorry for the losers, but that is life. Trying to use patents as a way to protect your sub-par product in the face of better competition is just making a massive joke of yourself - way to lose all respect in an instant!!

 

[phattpiggie]

@kel you question me on my feelings about a clone of my work and then proceed to tell me of your own trauma. You're twisting my melon man

I feel we are sort of on the same wavelength and we will never fully appreciate this conversation through typeface.

If you are in the UK we should get together and chew the fat. The only spring chickens at my house go in the oven.

 

[kel]

Sorry, didn't mean to twist your melon, you just seemed to be assuming that I had no experience of having my work ripped off when that's not true and all I wanted to do was clarify that.

I fully appreciate your feelings, I have had them too... I know what they feel like. I know they can get out of hand and cause real damage to one's self if you're not careful.

I think we are on the same wavelength too, we're in a very difficult discussion and doing pretty well...

I think terminology is important, my understanding is:

Unique piece = art = can be copied = protected under copyright because of it's form​

​

Mass produced item = product = can be cloned = can be patented because of it's function​

Definitely in the UK, and while I have travelled the world, I never travel more than as far as I can run from my home these days

DMs are open

p.s. the person who literally copied my work, word for word on a regular basis is still going - years later! Actually nearly a decade!!! I don't know if they are making much money from it, but my business failed and they somehow managed to step up after I stopped producing and carry on. I have thought sincerely about restarting that business and simply basing it on their work now hehe shrugs... I wish them the best, they made something work I ultimately failed at... that is what life is!

 

[TommyDee]

@yllvape - I think the Orion patent is an unpublished patent application. The manufacturer had 'inside information' and took the schematic and re-spun circuit boards to fit cases available. The UFO is the 3rd generation Orion clone where they changed the formfactor of the board, but likely still based on the very same schematic V1 Orion went to China with. Copying a schematic verbatim is a blatant theft of intellectual property.

The patent being discussed here was not provided by me. It has been the butt of this joke of a thread. I've heard George mention before that they filed patents to protect Orion specifically. For VapingFans to be convinced to pull the product there has to be more than we are privy to at this time. I have written George to see if there can be some kind of license payment from the manufacturer to cover the release of UFO. That is the way patents are normally shared.

No one wins with this kind of shit. But right will win out at this point. I have no regret for my opening post, which was a simple and true comment in an introduction thread for the UFO heater. Remember that my comment is now out of context from the original thread. I thank @vtac for making space for this discussion. I thank VapingFans for following through on confirming my statement which anyone could have done.

Integrity is what makes our world, and the Dynaverse, a better place to live.

edit: I forgot, I also thank @kel for providing the megaphone to bring light to these proceedings ;]

 

[kel]

I would love to see some integrity from you Mr. Dee

I think the Orion patent is an unpublished patent application.

So the post you made that started this thread, the one you made the unfounded accusations in was based on your personal knowledge of an unpublished patent? Oooh sorry, not a patent... an unpublished patent application!

Not the one that you originally brought up that was the... wait for it... let me get the quote:

The magnetic reed switch that George owns a patent on.

p.s. I have some bad news for you... screenshot taken just now:. do you think someone might be shining you on perhaps? Doesn't look pulled to me, looks front and centre! Also, still available at vape fiend and getting good reviews.

 

[scy123]

I still don't see anything that would indicate patent infringement.

Thinking someone infringed on a patent that you think might exist that no one knows about is not patent infringement.

vapingfans seems to do and say a lot of off the walls stuff, I would take their antics with a grain of salt. They probably never even read a patent in their life.

 

[vandalizedbythelotus]

is it healthier and better for growth to have monopoly/patents and bare minimum development?

or do copies/variants and competition ultimately result in a more rich environment?

 

[scy123]

I feel if you developed something unique, like an advanced temp control system that would of been difficult to develop is fine to patent.

But patenting a simple magnetic reed switch for use in an induction heater (like was originally accused by TOMMYDEE) is way too much.

 

[kel]

Despite everything I have said about patents, the two things I think Dynavap should patent, if they are determined to go down this route, are the two items that they undeniably developed and are absolutely core to this system - the tip and the cap - leave everything else as a free for all!

That way, they are in an unassailably strong position to defend against anyone ripping those two things off, but foster a warm fuzzy feeling in the community because they have an ever increasing community of makers developing accessories around that core concept - awesome!!

That would be what I believe a genuinely smart person would do... imo! And up until recently, what I believed to be the case - I admit I presumed too much and gave them too much credence and credit!

 

[scy123]

I just want to know what this patent is now.

Page 8 and no one knows about this patent.

 

[kel]

It's why I am still here, for sure, I only asked a perfectly reasonable question after the accusation was made...

I will stick this one out to the bitter end, but I will never take anything Mr. Dee says seriously again that's for sure!

 

[scy123]

I mean we were asking about the specific patent from page 1

 

[kel]

Not even that far into page 1, from post 5 onwards when Mr. Dee first brought up the magnetic reed switch patent he claimed George owned

and post 9 when he tried comparing it to murder... I should have known then what a farce this was going to be, ahh well!!