Obamacare

[dannkk]

WTF?? That's your answer to a legitimately sick individual that is happy that they are now protected?? Again, you don't give me an answer as to what the sick children and adults will do? Why??

Why can't you just answer this one question for me without insulting me or side stepping the issue (or calling me a "wet dream"), like the politicians are? Is it just that you have no answer to my question? Or, you just don't care? The sick people deserve an alternative, and I am not bad for saying so.

I don't like the mandate, I really don't. But, what am I supposed to do if this is repealed? I don't understand why this is so hard for some people to get. Maybe it is because they aren't sick like me, and could not possibly understand what it's like for an illness to bankrupt them. Please, give me a feasible alternative.

I have answered your question, albeit very simply, but it is the answer. We need to be free. See, it's not just healthcare that's fucked up. Everything is. In order to fix it, we need our freedom. The government needs to be taken back by the people. Remember the constitution? "A government for the people, by the people" We don't have that now and we need it back if we ever want to get out of this mess.

You want a really simple answer? Cut defense spending by 200 billion a year and pay for healthcare. Or how about we stop allowing American corporations to claim all their profits offshore, tax it and pay for healthcare?

Or how about we get our freedom back, cut the size of government down so we're not giving them half our income, and then we have time to get out of the shitty rat race everyone get's stuck in, our wives could raise our children instead of working, the kids won't end up being gangbangers or people stuck on welfare costing the state tons of cash to support them(in jail or otherwise), and then there's more money to go around for charity.

Or, we could get the free market back into healthcare, instead of it being chosen for you by your employer. If everyone could choose their own healthcare plan based on their needs and means, it would increase competition driving prices down and services up.

Now you'll know why I didn't answer your question. These aren't alternatives to you while obamacare is being handed to you on a silver platter. I also figured it'd be a waste of time to type this out, which it probably was, but w/e.

 

[Vicki]

Eventually you, like billions of other people, will die. Life is terminal get over it.

So, you're saying I should just get over it and die???? God, you are cold. Wow, and I'm being called heartless?? When did people stop caring about their fellow man? Alan Grayson was right about what the Republicans want (and others too)....don't get sick, and if you do, die quickly. You better hope you don't ever get sick. With an uncompassionate attitude like that, no one will care.

dannk, you must feel the same way. Like I said, I never asked for or took a handout. I just want the insurance companies to stop playing God, deciding who deserves medical care, and who doesn't. Who lives, who dies. What gives them the right? What gives anyone the right? It's wrong morally, and people with a conscience know this. Why do the Obamacare opposers think this is ok? Is it ok for you to be treated like that as well?

 

[lwien]

LOL ! TeaParty quoting WSJ who is owned by the same right winged conservative group that owns Fox News. You may as well quote Hannity. Hell, I can quote you stats from left wing groups that would state just the opposite.

Too funny..............Now................gimmie some grapes.

 

[Tweak]

Too funny..............Now................gimmie some grapes.

U keep asking,

 

[Tea Party]

LOL ! TeaParty quoting WSJ who is owned by the same right winged conservative group that owns Fox News. You may as well quote Hannity. Hell, I can quote you stats from left wing groups that would state just the opposite.

Too funny..............Now................gimmie some grapes.

Hannity is not an economist.

 

[lwien]

U keep asking,

Yum. Now off to the freezer they go.

I should have said, "No thanks, but do ya have any lemonade?" but then, I can't turn away from frozen grapes.

 

[Gandalf]

For the people who don't like Obamacare, are you more opposed to universal healthcare or specifically the way healthcare is addressed in this bill?

If you're opposed to universal healthcare as a concept, would you agree that the current, private healthcare system is not the best way to run a healthcare system in the United States?

Healthcare costs have become insane, to the point where an operation that cost $5,000 a few years ago now costs $50,000+. People who are sick cannot even get healthcare for the conditions they actually have and are forced to pay out of pocket. Clearly this is not a fair system either, and has nothing to do with whether you are freeloading or not. The prices are simply way too high.

Now about freeloading, since that seems to be a popular topic on this thread. What about all of the people who AREN'T freeloading who just don't have healthcare because of the aforementioned ridiculously high prices?

Believe it or not, there are many, many jobs in the United States that don't currently offer healthcare. Do these people deserve to die as well Tea Party? Because they can't afford the insane amount of money it costs to treat a condition that they wouldn't be able to get insured for in the first place?

Is the answer REALLY just "life is hard, so try not to get sick and die"?

For the people who oppose Obamacare so strongly, what do you see as a better alternative aside from the obviously terrible current system?

 

[Vicki]

Is the answer REALLY just "life is hard, so try not to get sick and die"?
For the people who oppose Obamacare so strongly, what do you see as a better alternative aside from the obviously terrible current system?

They can't seem to offer up an alternative, and I asked them over and over. Apparently, I'm suppose to "get over it," and just die. That must be their alternative. Nice, huh? I sure would love to hear a more compassionate alternative because I'm not ready to die just yet.

 

[t-dub]

The human condition is needs>resources. The question is who do you want rationing your healthcare? The government and their bioethisicts or the private sector? The point is your care is going to be rationed, especially since it is getting priced out of reach. It upsets me that the government would ask me to vote away others rights by tempting me with something I need so desperately. The ends do not justify the means.

 

[WatTyler]

The question is who do you want rationing your healthcare? The government and their bioethisicts or the private sector?

"For the people, by the people" or "by the manager, for the shareholders"....? At that fundamental level I know which I would choose.

Neither has a particularly good track record, but at least the government are transparently held to account by you for your best interests. You have such little influence on the decision making of the alternative- it's becomes about profits rather than ethics, as we've seen; it's required legislation to hold insurers to their responsibilities.

 

[dannkk]

For the people who don't like Obamacare, are you more opposed to universal healthcare or specifically the way healthcare is addressed in this bill?

If you're opposed to universal healthcare as a concept, would you agree that the current, private healthcare system is not the best way to run a healthcare system in the United States?

Healthcare costs have become insane, to the point where an operation that cost $5,000 a few years ago now costs $50,000+. People who are sick cannot even get healthcare for the conditions they actually have and are forced to pay out of pocket. Clearly this is not a fair system either, and has nothing to do with whether you are freeloading or not. The prices are simply way too high.

Now about freeloading, since that seems to be a popular topic on this thread. What about all of the people who AREN'T freeloading who just don't have healthcare because of the aforementioned ridiculously high prices?

Believe it or not, there are many, many jobs in the United States that don't currently offer healthcare. Do these people deserve to die as well Tea Party? Because they can't afford the insane amount of money it costs to treat a condition that they wouldn't be able to get insured for in the first place?

Is the answer REALLY just "life is hard, so try not to get sick and die"?

For the people who oppose Obamacare so strongly, what do you see as a better alternative aside from the obviously terrible current system?

This is why this bill is so clever. The media tells you it does one thing, when it reality it does another. As I said before, all this stuff you guys are mentioning is bullshit, and it's not the way things should be. This bill isn't going to do what you think it will, though. It will not lower insurance costs. There will be cheaper insurance plans, but they'll be garbage just like the cheapest car insurance plans are. Some of the stuff I've been reading has been talking about $10,000 deductables. How's that affordable if they have to pay 300-500 a month, and then have to rack up 5-10 thousand dollars in out of pocket expenses before they get coverage? Nothing you are forced to buy is going to be cheap, no matter what they say, because they can raise the price, and you still have to buy it.

Unless you can see passed these hot button issues, and see the influence this gives the federal government, you'll never understand our argument.

 

[Vicki]

This is why this bill is so clever. The media tells you it does one thing, when it reality it does another. As I said before, all this stuff you guys are mentioning is bullshit, and it's not the way things should be. This bill isn't going to do what you think it will, though. It will not lower insurance costs. There will be cheaper insurance plans, but they'll be garbage just like the cheapest car insurance plans are. Some of the stuff I've been reading has been talking about $10,000 deductables. How's that affordable if they have to pay 300-500 a month, and then have to rack up 5-10 thousand dollars in out of pocket expenses before they get coverage? Nothing you are forced to buy is going to be cheap, no matter what they say, because they can raise the price, and you still have to buy it.

Unless you can see passed these hot button issues, and see the influence this gives the federal government, you'll never understand our argument.

What about pre-existing conditions???? Why do you refuse to acknowledge the fact that part of the law will HELP ME?? You keep avoiding it, and I can't help but wonder why! Why??????

 

[Gandalf]

As I said before, all this stuff you guys are mentioning is bullshit, and it's not the way things should be.

How is anything that I mentioned bullshit? The high price of healthcare in the U.S.? The fact that millions of people don't have access to healthcare?

Unless you can see passed these hot button issues, and see the influence this gives the federal government, you'll never understand our argument.

I understand your argument. It's simple: "Obamacare isn't what you think it is. It won't make healthcare more affordable and it gives the federal government too much control."

That's fine. Maybe it won't make healthcare more affordable, that is yet to be seen. But the current system isn't improving by itself either.

So what do you propose as an alternative?

 

[lwien]

This bill isn't going to do what you think it will, though.

And this bill isn't going to do what you think it will either.

Here's what I think. I think that what you guys on the Right are saying about how this bill is going to play out is all conjecture. Btw, I also think that how the Left thinks it's going to play out is all conjecture as well. The fact is, is that we really don't know how it's all going to play. Wayyyy too many moving parts here for any of us to say, THIS IS HOW IT"S GOING WORK, regardless what the economists and pundits on either side says.

My take? Give this bill a chance. Let it play out for a bit. It WILL need tweaking. Maybe major tweaking, but we're not going to know how to tweak it till we have some experience under our belt with it. What we DO know, is that our current system is broken. It's isn't working, and hasn't worked for awhile. So now we have something new to work with. Rather than just trash it, how 'bout both sides of aisle get together to make it better than it is over the next few years.

Health care has now become a political tool that get's thrown about by both the Left and the Right purely for political reasons to win the battle of the day. I think we can ALL see that, eh? The Republicans are NOT right on this issue, and neither are the Democrats. Neither are they wrong. We got a new program. How 'bout we just work it, tweak it, change it, do whatever we need to do to make it better than what we have now and leave all the talking heads, be they economists, politicians, whatever.........let them battle it out through their verbal masturbation. What BOTH sides need to do is to fucking put all this dogmatic rhetoric aside and do what's best for the country. Take the bill that has just passed thru the Supreme Court and make it better than it is today. Don't fucking destroy it just because all those talking heads got ya all riled up.

Change causes fear and fear causes anger, and THAT is what is happening now.

Change, ANY change, is not easy. Never is.

(hey, being on the soapbox is kinda fun..............now, gotta eat some grapes.)

 

[Tea Party]

To lower the cost of health care you need tort reform and to have hospitals quit doing charity work that has its costs past on to others.

I'll take private insurance over government rationed healthcare any day.

Obama care also gives businesses the ability to opt of giving their employees insurance by payin a $2000 "fine" ( tax). Many employers are going to drop coverage because it'll save them an insane amount of cash.

One friend of mine whom I have been working with has recently set up a new and thriving business. I may go work for him later in the year but he already told me up front, straight salary, no insurance benefits. I'm willing to wager you will see this quite a bit.

Even if you don't want government health care and buy your own insurance you have to pay additional tax on it because of rules in obama care.

My take? Give this bill a chance. Let it play out for a bit.

So first we need to pass it to find out what in it? then we need to give it a chance to see how well thousands of pages of regulations and bureaucracy will work? Yeah sorry but fuck that.

Sorry but we need to be striking the federal government ( mostly their budget) before we can worry about something off the wall like socialized medicine.

 

[lwien]

^^ It's all conjecture. YOU don't know how this is going to play out and neither do I. Quit being led around by the nose by those who are yankin' your chain either for political reasons or for ratings. This bill is HUGE. What in the hell makes YOU think that YOU know how this is all going to play out when the fact is, that NO ONE knows how this is going to play out, regardless what they say. Obama doesn't know how this is going to play. Hell, the Supreme Court even said that THEY don't know how this is going to play out. What makes YOU or DBV or anyone else here on this board think that they have the inside track on this.

We need to work it. Tweak it. Change it. Make it better than what it is, but we're not going to know how to do that until we see the ramifications. If we see that parts of it is causing a negative impact, THEN change it, but until then, all this talk, be it here or on TV, regardless of the station that you are tuned to is total bullshit and is meant to do one thing. Rile the listeners up for ratings. Nothing more, nothing less.

On another note, check this out. Me thinks it's just the tip of the proverbial iceberg: http://money.cnn.com/2012/07/02/news/companies/GlaxoSmithKline-settlement/index.htm?hpt=hp_t1 3 BILLION dollar fine. Hey, I got an idea. How 'bout we use the fines levied on drug companies and insurance companies for illegal practices to fund our health care system? How ironic would THAT be. lol (I'm kidding, but it does kinda have a nice ring to it, eh?)

 

[dannkk]

How is anything that I mentioned bullshit? The high price of healthcare in the U.S.? The fact that millions of people don't have access to healthcare?

I meant you're right. All those things you mentioned are wrong(bullshit) and need to be dealt with.

What about pre-existing conditions???? Why do you refuse to acknowledge the fact that part of the law will HELP ME?? You keep avoiding it, and I can't help but wonder why! Why??????

I've answered you several times. I've said that denying people with a pre-existing condition is wrong. I've also said that boiling down a 3800 page bill down to 1 single hot button issue is wrong. Now, please stop replying to me unless you're actually going to read what I say.

 

[Vicki]

I've said that denying people with a pre-existing condition is wrong.

If this is so, why do you think I am a bad person for being happy that I am now protected from that??? For making my case for this exact point? This is what I have been talking about the whole thread! I already know Tea Party wants me dead, but I hope he's the only one, at least here in this forum.

And, for the record, I didn't see one person acknowledge my plight, and understand how this helps me. That fact was ignored, over and over and over, and all I read was hatred towards me for being happy that I am now protected. That is SO FUCKED UP!

 

[Tea Party]

We both can read the laws and make a reasonable assumption as to what the effects will be. In this case, dire.

So because you can't look at the facts and see how something such a massive power grab by the federal government in regards to health care may be bad, everyone else should just get fucked so you can see if it works?

Obama does know how this will play because he sat in on the closed door meetings to get this bill pushed through ( hurp derp transparency!)

I'm not watching this on tv BTW.

When the federal government can balance their budget and cut out some of the social welfare spending then we can consider things such as obozo care.

If this is so, why do you think I am a bad person for being happy that I am now protected from that??? For making my case for this exact point? This is what I have been talking about the whole thread! I already know Tea Party wants me dead, but I hope he's the only one, at least here in this forum.

No where did I say that. quit making such disgusting and absurd allegations. I said life is terminal and at some point, everyone dies.

All you posts have one thing in common you yelling Me!! ME!! ME!!! you're only concerned about yourself. hell for all you know the public option could fuck you over even harder because instead of having a high delectable the government may say sorry vicki in the name of keeping costs down we can't provide you with the surgery you want.

 

[Vicki]

No where did I say that. quit making such disgusting and absurd allegations. I said life is terminal and at some point, everyone dies.

All you posts have one thing in common you yelling Me!! ME!! ME!!! you're only concerned about yourself. hell for all you know the public option could fuck you over even harder because instead of having a high delectable the government may say sorry vicki in the name of keeping costs down we can't provide you with the surgery you want.

You're damned right I'm worried about ME because no one else will, and certainly NOT you. See? Here we go again. I am being bashed because I am happy I am now protected, NOTHING MORE. And, when I asked you earlier if you think I should die, YOU NEVER EVEN RESPONDED until now, why is that?

Let me refresh your memory....

Tea Party, I said THIS:

WTF?? That's your answer to a legitimately sick individual that is happy that they are now protected?? Again, you don't give me an answer as to what the sick children and adults will do? Why??

Why can't you just answer this one question for me without insulting me or side stepping the issue (or calling me a "wet dream"), like the politicians are? Is it just that you have no answer to my question? Or, you just don't care? The sick people deserve an alternative, and I am not bad for saying so.

I don't like the mandate, I really don't. But, what am I supposed to do if this is repealed? I don't understand why this is so hard for some people to get. Maybe it is because they aren't sick like me, and could not possibly understand what it's like for an illness to bankrupt them. Please, give me a feasible alternative.

You replied with this:

Eventually you, like billions of other people, will die. Life is terminal get over it.


What exactly did you mean by this then? When I asked specifically what legitimately sick individuals were supposed to do for a feasible alternative, including myself, you say, "life is terminal, get over it." Did you mean I, and the other sick people, were just supposed to "get over it and die?" I specifically said I would be fucked if I was not protected by this law. So, I need some clarification on that statement, please.

 

[lwien]

We both can read the laws and make a reasonable assumption as to what the effects will be. In this case, dire.

It's a fucking 3800 page bill. ALL those moving parts affect all the other parts. You have no idea what the effects will be. You are doing nothing but making assumptions.

Reasonable assumptions? Those reasonable assumptions are painted and spiced with preconceived ideas about how you "think" this is all going to work out. YOU have NO IDEA how this is all going to play out. To totally trash this bill based upon "assumptions", when what we have now, we KNOW is not working, is asinine and more than that, myopic.........to say the least.

How 'bout we put the bill in place and work on the parts that need working based upon actual experiences. This isn't working..........change it. This is working............keep it. Hell, even the most staunch Right Winged Conservative Republicans will admit that there are certain things in this bill that are worth keeping.

Fucking Romeny stating that the first thing that he's going to do when (if) he takes over is trash the bill in it's entirety, and if you can't see that he is doing nothing more than playing to his base with that remark, than there's really no use in me continuing this conversation with you.

Work it, tweak it...but don't fucking trash it, for it's the classic example of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[Tea Party]

How about we ( meaning the USA) get our finances in order by balancing the budget and then look at this.

Also the this of taxes I posted is real, the sections and page numbers of where they can be found in the bill are listed.


To vicki, just because you may be covered doesn't change the fact that what ever services you expect to just fall out of the sky may not come because the government insurance may not provide those.

Not to mention if this bullshit law is a good thing what have over 2000 companies received waivers from complying with the law? why is it that many of these companies were major democratic supports as well as unions.?

 

[dannkk]

If this is so, why do you think I am a bad person for being happy that I am now protected from that??? For making my case for this exact point? This is what I have been talking about the whole thread! I already know Tea Party wants me dead, but I hope he's the only one, at least here in this forum.

And, for the record, I didn't see one person acknowledge my plight, and understand how this helps me. That fact was ignored, over and over and over, and all I read was hatred towards me for being happy that I am now protected. That is SO FUCKED UP!

I bashed you for basically saying, that the bill helped you, so you don't care what else it does. You also called people that disagreed with obamacare heartless. Pretty insulting, considering i also have pre-existing conditions and zero health insurance at the moment. If anything goes wrong with that, I'm in the same boat as you.

 

[Vicki]

To vicki, just because you may be covered doesn't change the fact that what ever services you expect to just fall out of the sky may not come because the government insurance may not provide those.

I never said or implied I want services to fall out of the sky. Can you please answer the question I asked you about "getting over it?" I'm serious! Here, let me copy and paste again because I really want to understand what you meant by this:

Tea Party said:

Eventually you, like billions of other people, will die. Life is terminal get over it.

My questions to you:

What exactly did you mean by this then? When I asked specifically what legitimately sick individuals were supposed to do for a feasible alternative, including myself, you say, "life is terminal, get over it." Did you mean I, and the other sick people, were just supposed to "get over it and die?" I specifically said I would be fucked if I was not protected by this law. So, I need some clarification on that statement, please.

 

[Vicki]

I bashed you for basically saying, that the bill helped you, so you don't care what else it does. You also called people that disagreed with obamacare heartless. Pretty insulting, considering i also have pre-existing conditions and zero health insurance at the moment. If anything goes wrong with that, I'm in the same boat as you.

I never said I didn't care about the rest of the bill. Go back and re-read. I said I was not for the mandate. I merely said I am happy I am now protected. How can you bash me for that, and only that? That makes no sense to me. I called people heartless because I was being likened to a terrorist, and that is FUCKED UP, and heartless!!