You need to realize that most of the people in the US are brainwashed to at least some extent. People are used to believing in things that aren't real. You, and I, and everyone else has been conditioned to believe what we are told.
Obamacare
- Thread starter Rick
- Start date
You need to realize that most of the people in the US are brainwashed to at least some extent. People are used to believing in things that aren't real. You, and I, and everyone else has been conditioned to believe what we are told.
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
No, I didn't miss it. Pretty much stopped reading at that point. Didn't much care what you had to say. I recognize the tactic, I don't play the game.
Deflection, belittling noted.
Back on topic...
The ugly truth about ObamaCare
To get ObamaCare passed, the dems claimed it fell under the Commerce Clause. This allowed 2 different versions to exist. The House had forced one through and the Senate another. To avoid sending their bill to the Senate and then having to take it back to the House and vote AGAIN, the House reconciled the two bills into one and deemed it law.
They claim its NOT a tax. Fast forward to argument before the SCOTUS. The WH claims its not Commerce Clause, but a tax (they know the court will throw it out as unconstitutional if they use that). Since the bill does not claim any usage of the Commerce Clause... the court agrees. Its a TAX. A tax, is NOT under juridiction of the SCOTUS. Roberts does the smart thing and agrees, its a tax.
The dems rejoice, OBAMACARE LIVES! Party, Party, Party! All night long. Next morning dems wake up and realize, "Oh @#$%! The SCOTUS just saddled us and Obama with the largest tax increase in the history of the WORLD (not the US... the WORLD).
The dems also realize that you can NOT raise taxes, through reconciliation, thus making ObamaCare an INVALID tax. Null and void. No repeal needed... just a change of who's driving the car and ObamaCare goes, *POOF*.
Now the dems claim, the SCOTUS made the right decision, but for the wrong reasons... "its not a TAX".
Too bad, so sad.
lwien
Well-Known Member
That's why I really try to watch news programs that DON'T support my preconceived ideas on how things should be, along with those that DO support my preconceived ideas on how things should be.
But yes, I agree that all of us are brainwashed to one degree or another, but those who just watch Fox News and that's the only place they get their info and opinions from, only because it supports what they already think, are more prone to be TOTALLY brainwashed in the dogma that FOX news presents. Same thing holds true for those that just watch MSNBC.
And to DBV and Tea Party, to head you guys off at the pass, both FOX and MSNBC do the exact same things. The ONLY difference is, is that they represent opposite sides of the same coin, for they both seem to be news proxies for each party.
Tea Party
Boro Connoisseur
Wouldn't surprise me, but that is the first time I've heard of that. Not to mention Tel Aviv is apparently a big LGBT tourist destination. Not to mention that majority of jews have pretty much replaced liberalism as their religion.
On the other hand, if you do something offensive in public it shouldn't be out of the realm to expect someone to come back at you with something you may find offensive. I couldn't care less about the LGBT crowd as long as they don't throw their beliefs and lifestyle in my face. The participators at gay pride events really do like to push the envelope.
As far as obama care? I'll pay for my health care, you pay for your.
Health Insurance
Internet
Cell Phones
College education
Those things I just listed are luxuries, not human rights.
Slightly Medicated
(SliM) Iron Lungs
I took a class on the philosophy of human rights. It could be argued that the 4 things you listed there could be human rights. Not saying I think they are human rights... just saying that you can frame it in such a way that would make them legitimate human rights.
There is a concept of Positive and Negative Human Rights. They have to do with rights given to you by someone, and rights inherent to you as a person.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights
It is an interesting read.
Also I posted this one but I will do it again. If anyone really cares and wants to read the bill for themselves you can go to: http://www.healthcare.gov/law/full/
I am slowly reading it... but lets face it it is not exactly Tom Clancy. I breezed through it a long time ago when it was first made public. I had forgotten most of what I read though.
There is a concept of Positive and Negative Human Rights. They have to do with rights given to you by someone, and rights inherent to you as a person.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights
It is an interesting read.
Also I posted this one but I will do it again. If anyone really cares and wants to read the bill for themselves you can go to: http://www.healthcare.gov/law/full/
I am slowly reading it... but lets face it it is not exactly Tom Clancy. I breezed through it a long time ago when it was first made public. I had forgotten most of what I read though.
Vicki
Herbal Alchemist
How can a person have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness if they are sick all the time? Internet, cell phones, and a college education are not necessities, but being healthy is a necessity.
Slightly Medicated
(SliM) Iron Lungs
aesthyrian
Blaaaaah
So poor people have no rights? Too bad you were born to a poor family, dumb kid should just die when they get sick, oh wait they will go to the E.R. and we will all pay to offset that cost anyway...
I'm just going to make this a simple question. Do you agree with the private health insurance industry using pre-existing conditions such as asthma and yeast infection's that you may have had as a child and using that as a reason to NOT provide the coverage that you have been paying into for the past few years? Is this really about your right to get ripped off by huge health insurance companies with CEO's such as Steve Hemsley of United Healthcare who is the wealthiest CEO in America..
So you honestly believe that his rights to make millions upon millions of unnecessary wealth justifies his companies practices of literally taking money from American citizens for a service and then not providing that service when needed? Wealth over health... what a fucked mindset.
Just remember these sick people can be your neighbors, friends, co-workers, it can be all of us here. They are your fellow citizens, and you wish no good or help to come to them? Patriotic much?
It times like these that I can't help but laugh when I'm told that American is a Christian nation, yeah a Christian nation that is not Christ like at all.
You can't make it a simple question. This is a very complex issue. You're doing what politicians do. No one thinks that what you're talking about is right aside from maybe the shareholders in the insurance companies.
It's not like anyone can stop it, so you'll see as time goes by. Instead of all these people having a nice health insurance plan, they'll have some SR-22 version with a $10k deductible and still be unable to afford their healthcare.
This bill isn't about helping people. It's about getting more control over people and the states.
It's not like anyone can stop it, so you'll see as time goes by. Instead of all these people having a nice health insurance plan, they'll have some SR-22 version with a $10k deductible and still be unable to afford their healthcare.
This bill isn't about helping people. It's about getting more control over people and the states.
Tea Party
Boro Connoisseur
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
Comparing Fox to MSNBC, is like comparing John Stossel to Dan Rather (oh... ooops). Ummm... Like Stossel to Olbermann... ooops.
Never mind. Get over the evil "Faux" News crap. Its numbers, shit all over MSNBC, which is a NON-ENTITY in the game. Pew Research shit all over the biased crap, during the last election.
Funny thing is, the last Pew Research Poll, found "Faux" News the most unbiased of the bunch. See... this is where the lib propaganda comes into play. Instead of focusing on newscasts... libs will focus on Hannity, O'Reilly (who's a @#$%ing moderate) and other OPINION shows. You know... just like Olbermann on MSN oh wait... nevermind.
So you get the NEWS and the CORRECT NEWS on FOX. Libs, just don't like the news they do report, nor the opinions their OPINION shows have.
Who and where have the BIGGEST "faux" (you know... REAL, FAKE news)... reports come from in recent history? <cough>Rather</cough> Anyone? Anything you can think of?
When you catch "Faux" News reporting news as fact, using falsified documents as "proof"... then you come back and we'll talk. You won't ever sell the "faux" news crap here. I will shoot that ridiculous argument down, rip it to shreds, spit on it, then bury it in a shallow grave, every. single. time.
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
[merged]
Vicki
Herbal Alchemist
Fox News aside, I'd love to know how people would answer these questions.
Tea Party
Boro Connoisseur
The pursuit of happiness is a the chance to do well for your self, not a guarantee.
health insurance and liberty aren't really related.
No where in the bill of rights does it say that your life will be peachy and there will be a solution for your every problem.
I already answered the other question.
health insurance and liberty aren't really related.
No where in the bill of rights does it say that your life will be peachy and there will be a solution for your every problem.
I already answered the other question.
Vicki
Herbal Alchemist
I know you did, and I was appalled. I'm not interested in seeing your opinion on this matter again. I was talking to other people.
I pity you if you ever get sick with a major illness.
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
So the Government should take care of us, "Cradle to Grave"? Is that what you're saying?
I'm sorry... but I don't feel like giving that much control. Again... can't see the forest for the trees. All you know, is "I WANT HEALTHCARE" and then blindly throw your faith into, this is going to give it to you.
Its not. What I think about what everyone is or isn't entitled to, isn't the issue. That you believe the government is, or is even empowered to, is absolutely ridiculous and really, pretty sad.
Cracks me up, that people that want repeal of a Class 1 drug, want "the man" to stay out of their bedrooms, want peace and freedom... yet every single time you jump in front of the Feds and say, "More porridge please, Sir?" They chuckle, give you a pittance of what you ask for, while greasing their own palms and exerting that much more control over you. You don't even know what's in the damn bill.
I'm sorry... but I don't feel like giving that much control. Again... can't see the forest for the trees. All you know, is "I WANT HEALTHCARE" and then blindly throw your faith into, this is going to give it to you.
Its not. What I think about what everyone is or isn't entitled to, isn't the issue. That you believe the government is, or is even empowered to, is absolutely ridiculous and really, pretty sad.
Cracks me up, that people that want repeal of a Class 1 drug, want "the man" to stay out of their bedrooms, want peace and freedom... yet every single time you jump in front of the Feds and say, "More porridge please, Sir?" They chuckle, give you a pittance of what you ask for, while greasing their own palms and exerting that much more control over you. You don't even know what's in the damn bill.
Vicki
Herbal Alchemist
Um, whenever did I say that? I was just wondering if people thought it was right for people to be denied healthcare based on a pre-existing condition? Also wondering if they think it's ok for an illness to bankrupt a family?
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
Deflection noted, lwien.
Vicki. You don't have any idea what's in the bill. I am not going to discuss it with you any further, because you keep arguing points that are moot. The bill isn't even remotely close to what you think it is. I am saddened that, one of these days, it will sink in with you and you will probably deny the day you ever supported this shit.
I hope for your continued health and that you find a way to take care of you and yours. The feds aren't,
Vicki. You don't have any idea what's in the bill. I am not going to discuss it with you any further, because you keep arguing points that are moot. The bill isn't even remotely close to what you think it is. I am saddened that, one of these days, it will sink in with you and you will probably deny the day you ever supported this shit.
I hope for your continued health and that you find a way to take care of you and yours. The feds aren't,
WatTyler
Revolting Peasant
I think some think the second coming will be a dude like this, rather than a hippie:
At least he will if he wants to connect with many in the USA, I think.
What's wrong with that?
Queen Elizabeth just shook the hand of Martin McGuiness, Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, but also formerly a commander of the terrorist organisation which blew up her cousin Mountbatten (also Philips Uncle) and his grandson. I take my hat off to the Queen for that. It's called progress. And the Muslim Brotherhood isn’t even a terrorist group.
I don't think that's the goal of the policy, maybe an action to lead towards a carbon emissions objective, but not the goal in itself. And do you really care about the poor? On any other policy? Or just this one that hits business?
Wow, that seriously has to be one of the most stupid and ill informed things I’ve ever read on FC.
Have you ever actually met a muslim? Or been to a mosque? I do suggest you learn a bit more before spouting such drivel. Utter ignorance and bigotry. You’re just spreading hate. Exactly the same as the extremists do.
For some reason so many in the USA are only focused on fundamental rights established long ago and try to deny the existence of any other secondary human rights. This has put it behind the rest of the liberal developed world IMHO which has naturally progressed with and developed the concept of human rights.
It depends on how advanced you’re prepared to be in your consideration- all these additional human rights could be valid IMO, as slightly medicated said a lot depends upon how it’s framed, although I can recognise the extent to which we can effectively protect them all varies over time. That doesn’t mean that we can deny their existence though.
I would argue that some kind of access to the internet IS becoming a human right, and perhaps rightly so; no one should take it away- it’s become entwined with freedom of expression and freedom to access information (especially information on what your government are actually up to). It’s a progression from the right to be taught to talk, read and write, which no one seems to be disputing.
And why should the right to an education end at school leaving age? Education is a much longer process now than it was when this right was initially established and there's an awful lot more to learn if you are to contribute your potential meaningfully to society. Shouldn't the level of the education to which one has a right not be extended to reflect that?
What effects are those? I think you've been hearing scare stories. Muslims are most welcome in the UK and on the whole there are few problems. Their presence has enriched my life, honestly. There's only a problem for knuckle dragging xenophobes who are scared of the concept of multiculturalism (a nice video of one displaying typical intellectual insight below). The same type were moaning about Catholics for a few centuries before. There's always been a problem with extremism somewhere or other in Europe; that's nothing new nor the exclusive preserve of Islam. We had Irish republican extremists blowing things and people up for years in the UK, and arguably the worst recent case of European extremism came from the Christian far right (Brevick).
This thug has a far worse effect on Britain than most muslims.
Yes, that will be the day.
And so to the OP topic, which doesn’t affect me in the least but still brings me a smile. 300 odd million people in the world are now safer. Obamacare is a great development in the civilisation of the US and all Americans should be proud of this progress, regardless of the details. Sick people now get care. This is a better postition from which to start making any needed reforms from than the situation before. Now at least people get treated whilst politicians can continue to squabble over the detail, rather than needlessly suffering from sickness whilst the politicians squabble without any extra urgency. Who can honestly argue with that perspective in good conscience? All that remains is for the death penalty and issues in other aspects of the criminal justice system, and Guantanamo Bay, to be sorted, and then I think the US could hold its head up high(er) as the righteous global police force that some would have it be.
So much in this argument seems to be based on a fear of anything government. Are Canadians and Europeans really that much more enslaved to their governments because of their healthcare provisions? I certainly don’t think so and can’t see any actual evidence for this. They live their lives just as freely as Americans live theirs. The only real difference in that respect exists in paranoid small minds. All of these fears concerning American liberty are actually the moot points in this discussion, in reality.
Vicki
Herbal Alchemist
My pre-existing condition may be a moot point to you, that's why you don't want to talk about it anymore? It is NOT a moot point to ME, but you keep missing that point. Why can't you answer the questions? Do you think it's ok to deny people due to pre-existing conditions?