BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
As long as American glass blowers are charging $300+ for their work... if I find a knock-off, or a glass blower that will recreate it for half the price... I'm going to snatch it up.
Discuss.
Discuss.
Knock-offs and originals
- Thread starter BigDaddyVapor
- Start date
SVuser
Well-Known Member
IME glass blowers worth their salt have more dignity. If you know a glass blower I suggest you discuss with him the functionality you desire in a piece, then he/she can see if they can incorporate it. E.g diffusion. To come along and ask one to outright copy another's design is not only inconvenient but insulting, imo.
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I believe money talks and...well you know the rest.
If I'm offering someone money to do a particular job, to my specifications, they can be insulted, or obliging. If I don't have $300, I'm not entitled to own a piece I want, if I find an alternative? Well, that's certainly counter to a free market, supply and demand system.
So I'm supposed to buy what someone else tells me I can buy, with my own money?
If the glass blower is insulted, well he loses out on a sale, just as is his right.
If I'm offering someone money to do a particular job, to my specifications, they can be insulted, or obliging. If I don't have $300, I'm not entitled to own a piece I want, if I find an alternative? Well, that's certainly counter to a free market, supply and demand system.
So I'm supposed to buy what someone else tells me I can buy, with my own money?
If the glass blower is insulted, well he loses out on a sale, just as is his right.
SVuser
Well-Known Member
I don't understand the fascination with an imitation product. You tend to get what you pay for with glass so yep, you know the rest.
BTW You seem to have replied to my post rather defensively; I meant no offence. I wish you good luck on finding a custom made knock off for yourself however a production line would be inconceivable for blowers worth their salt, imo
BTW You seem to have replied to my post rather defensively; I meant no offence. I wish you good luck on finding a custom made knock off for yourself however a production line would be inconceivable for blowers worth their salt, imo
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
Didn't say I didn't like the pieces. I can't afford them. Your feelings on someone else's feelings on imitation, isn't really a valid point.
ilovebOObs
can i stick my male joint in there?
i wouldn't mind getting a knocking for cheap if its the same quality, but sadly in most cases this is not true 
havealight101
Norski
I come from a construction background and I see it as this, your trying to build a custom home on a prefab budget, and going to the prefab guys to do it. I'm a firm believer in that saying "you get what you pay for" if one does their research prior.
I've seen tile guys at less than half my price, but I've also seen their work(when I get called to fix it). To do a job right, no matter what you do, there are many steps along the way. If you leave out a few, usually the product looks the same in the end, but the quality is compromised. The quality of product used is usually better from an originator. Let alone on the artist aspect, who do you think will put more care in while making it, the guy who has his name(reputation) on the line, or the guy who was asked to stop making his own stuff and try and copy someone else.
I also agree that any self respecting glass artist would have a hard time stomaching copying someone all day long. As he would no longer be an artist, but merely a dime a dozen manufacturer.
I've seen tile guys at less than half my price, but I've also seen their work(when I get called to fix it). To do a job right, no matter what you do, there are many steps along the way. If you leave out a few, usually the product looks the same in the end, but the quality is compromised. The quality of product used is usually better from an originator. Let alone on the artist aspect, who do you think will put more care in while making it, the guy who has his name(reputation) on the line, or the guy who was asked to stop making his own stuff and try and copy someone else.
I also agree that any self respecting glass artist would have a hard time stomaching copying someone all day long. As he would no longer be an artist, but merely a dime a dozen manufacturer.
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
Didn't say I didn't like the pieces. I can't afford them. Your feelings on someone else's feelings on imitation, isn't really a valid point.
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
Dammit! Let me get off this damn phone. It keeps screwing up my posts. Came on to strong and is messing up edits.
SVuser
Well-Known Member
I thought you said discuss knock offs...? TBH I don't get the bit about my feelings about someone elses feelings.... please elaborate.
BTW this is an ancient debate. Plenty of examples out there. Hurricane vs basil bush; Jet Flash and Helix... the list goes on.
Bottom line: money talks, as you put it.
havealight101
Norski
I do all my FC ing on my phone, dont know why, hate it sometimes, but always do.
Edit: editing is the worst
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
Eh... Disregard... I'm an idiot typing on my phone. Ok... I'm generally an idiot. I'm worse on my phone.
WatTyler
Revolting Peasant
I think you could draw a strong parallel to the world of clothing fashion. The big fashion designers don't expect everyone to walk down the street in that seasons designs as they appear on the 'runway'. Instead they alter the course of popular culture- their ideas and innovation for that season trickles down to designs sold in the shops that year. And isn't that a very big part in how they make their name and get their kudos- not necessarily because people are buying their designs directly, but because they're excellent and influential designers? It's certainly the way to get remembered in history, and the way to see the current value of your original designs sky rocket. Bong makers shouldn't fear this IMO- it's still a rapidly growing market, with significant and increasing international demand for US made pieces.
Tweak
T\/\/34|<
I keep hearing "US glass" and "Chinese glass", is there really only two countries in the world that blow glass?
And I may come off sounding stupid but what is the big knock on "Chinese glass"? Is it just not as solid and with less polished welds and percs? Is there not a point of diminishing returns where a simple perc miss-firing is just going to ruin a piece?
I'm with Stu on this one:
And I may come off sounding stupid but what is the big knock on "Chinese glass"? Is it just not as solid and with less polished welds and percs? Is there not a point of diminishing returns where a simple perc miss-firing is just going to ruin a piece?
I'm with Stu on this one:
Tea Party
Boro Connoisseur
Chinese glass is not made as well.
Chinese pieces typically do not have solid welds, many stories out there about Chinese pieces literally falling apart. Most of the work is incredibly sloppy ( which is should be for sweat shop labor). Many of the percs are no reinforced.
Also it's hard to tell if a Boro tube from china has been properly annealed which has quite a bit to do with the structural integrity of the glass.
While pipes are made in many place around the world, The major high end glass workers are in the United stated.
Chinese sweat shop factory glass is what you find in 99% of head shops around the world.
No head shop owner makes a ton of money selling quality American work. The guys who own shops who make a killing sell only cheap china tubes because the profit margin is so high.
Chinese pieces typically do not have solid welds, many stories out there about Chinese pieces literally falling apart. Most of the work is incredibly sloppy ( which is should be for sweat shop labor). Many of the percs are no reinforced.
Also it's hard to tell if a Boro tube from china has been properly annealed which has quite a bit to do with the structural integrity of the glass.
While pipes are made in many place around the world, The major high end glass workers are in the United stated.
Chinese sweat shop factory glass is what you find in 99% of head shops around the world.
No head shop owner makes a ton of money selling quality American work. The guys who own shops who make a killing sell only cheap china tubes because the profit margin is so high.
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
OK, SV... back. Sorry, for the sloppy writing and poorly communicated ideas.
Anyway. I look at it like this... if I have the money for a Mobius Matrix and one is actually available, I would buy it in a heart beat. Wouldn't even bother looking at the Cheap Glass thread, except to laugh at all those cheap ass suckers. But, I don't have $300. I may never have a spare $300. Right now, my life and future don't have a rosy outlook. It won't ever. I might improve my financial standing and I'll certainly be able to afford whatever I want, if home-based business can catch on.
However, right now. I don't have that luxury. So Mobius... isn't going to get a dime from me. But, what if I'm surfing the web, I go to Planet Vape and they have a Mobius knock-off, good reviews, 5mm glass... why is there such discouragement from others, in fact... pure resentment, because I can afford that and its basically what I want in theory (probably not 100% in function)? Also... if someone can craft that piece, for that price that's in my price range... what's wrong with that?
As for local blowers and any craft trade. I get it. Before my dissection, I was going to start making custom knives. I knew damn well they weren't going to be cheap. But, someone can run down to Walmart and probably buy a pretty close replica form or function. That's their choice. Or they can come to me and say, "can you make exactly this, at this price". Some artists would be rightfully offended. Me? Especially in this economy? If it was a reasonable offer, I'd give them a date to pick it up. I'm not that proud and besides... I wouldn't be putting my damn name on it.... because I am that proud.
Simple supply and demand, really. I just don't get why some people (and I'm not accusing you, I think you've been quite polite) get literally hostile, when people talk of knock-offs or "cheap glass". Heck, do I have to quote the Wilson brother again?
Anyway. I look at it like this... if I have the money for a Mobius Matrix and one is actually available, I would buy it in a heart beat. Wouldn't even bother looking at the Cheap Glass thread, except to laugh at all those cheap ass suckers. But, I don't have $300. I may never have a spare $300. Right now, my life and future don't have a rosy outlook. It won't ever. I might improve my financial standing and I'll certainly be able to afford whatever I want, if home-based business can catch on.
However, right now. I don't have that luxury. So Mobius... isn't going to get a dime from me. But, what if I'm surfing the web, I go to Planet Vape and they have a Mobius knock-off, good reviews, 5mm glass... why is there such discouragement from others, in fact... pure resentment, because I can afford that and its basically what I want in theory (probably not 100% in function)? Also... if someone can craft that piece, for that price that's in my price range... what's wrong with that?
As for local blowers and any craft trade. I get it. Before my dissection, I was going to start making custom knives. I knew damn well they weren't going to be cheap. But, someone can run down to Walmart and probably buy a pretty close replica form or function. That's their choice. Or they can come to me and say, "can you make exactly this, at this price". Some artists would be rightfully offended. Me? Especially in this economy? If it was a reasonable offer, I'd give them a date to pick it up. I'm not that proud and besides... I wouldn't be putting my damn name on it.... because I am that proud.
Simple supply and demand, really. I just don't get why some people (and I'm not accusing you, I think you've been quite polite) get literally hostile, when people talk of knock-offs or "cheap glass". Heck, do I have to quote the Wilson brother again?
Tea Party
Boro Connoisseur
The wilson brother wat posted cracks me up.
You know how that guy makes his money? By doing huge whole sale orders to shops. Shop's where the overwhelming majority of the money comes from Stoners buying china pipes. Of course he isn't going to say anything bad about Chinese glass because that how the people that pay him make their money to pay the Wilsons.
You know how that guy makes his money? By doing huge whole sale orders to shops. Shop's where the overwhelming majority of the money comes from Stoners buying china pipes. Of course he isn't going to say anything bad about Chinese glass because that how the people that pay him make their money to pay the Wilsons.
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
Not made as well, as what? American glass, or just certain American blowers? I can point to plenty of shit, that was made right here, in the good ol' USA.
I haven't ever had a single weld break on a single piece of Chinese glass I own (which is all of it). I've had percs break from dropping them and one met its demise, to a Zombie Annihilator (basically a hammer, axe, pry bar thingy). I had one downstem (on the body) break, from a too heavy perc. Cheap glass that one was... yes.
Oh and the cheap, piece of shit (not really) Black Leaf I just brought, with the really ugly welds (not really) and the cheap thin glass (not really)... guess what's its sporting? 10 little REINFORCED tree percs.
Is it any easier in the States? How about any of those companies that slap Made in USA on them, but are made by underpaid Hispanic laborers?
So? Its not the only place. You've admitted that.
So?
Isn't that how a free market, capitalist society is supposed to work? Just as its the right, to open one of those fancy glass boutiques, for the snobs?
SVuser
Well-Known Member
With a knock off you have to live with the fact it's a knock off. With the real mc coy, you don't. You bask in it's glory.
I should add that I do not mean that in a superficial way either in case of misinterpretation.
On a side note I can see how the fashion parallel drawn by Wat works as like the glass market, it is divided. He did not define the segment of the market in question. For example think of nike, adidas, they are sweat shop companies and piss poor quality, but are "fashionable" in a large market.
I should add that I do not mean that in a superficial way either in case of misinterpretation.
On a side note I can see how the fashion parallel drawn by Wat works as like the glass market, it is divided. He did not define the segment of the market in question. For example think of nike, adidas, they are sweat shop companies and piss poor quality, but are "fashionable" in a large market.
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
Well, wasn't that a convenient deflection. So I suppose we're not allowed to buy Wilson glass now? Does his actions make his glass any less worthy?
You sure do have a lot of rancor for an economic system, you profess by ideology to embrace.
The shops that I see LW stuff in don't carry chinese glass at all. And similarly, none of the LHSs around here carry anything but Chinese glass. So I don't really see them necessarily competing for the same clientele.
I think Luke was being genuine when he said what he did about Chinese glass.
I think Luke was being genuine when he said what he did about Chinese glass.
Tea Party
Boro Connoisseur
Tea Party
Boro Connoisseur
The shops that I see LW stuff in don't carry chinese glass at all. And similarly, none of the LHSs around here carry anything but Chinese glass. So I don't really see them necessarily competing for the same clientele.
I think Luke was being genuine when he said what he did about Chinese glass.
Where at? My local shops ( somewhat of a meca for glass blowing) that have bongs costing $2,000+ still have cheap Chinese spoons and bubblers for people who don't want the real deal
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
No, your attitude in that whole response... is kind of "snobbish" though.