Is Brass Safe?

[lwien]

Ya know, what I don't understand is why there has to be condescending posts such as the last one on the previous page. Can't valid discussions like this take place without dissing or invalidating those that don't agree with your way of thinking about things?

 

[stickstones]

Moe...just pm your questions to vtac.

 

[max]

Just over a month ago you nearly kicked people off the board (I wasn't one of them) for even bringing up the subject.

I guess I'm not allowed to question a Mod, so I won't, but I do have my questions.

That was a mod note, and not a post by vtac, so you don't know which staff member posted it. And did you not catch his last sentence- "And as a side note, any discussion of material safety belongs in the general section and NOT directly in the related model thread(s)." If you need an explanation of why we don't want topics like this continually popping up in the vape specific threads, send me an email and I'll explain the reasons.

You can't please everyone, and with this topic, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. One thing to remember is that you can go to extremes to make sure you find and buy the safest vape to use, and end up getting poisoned quicker and more thoroughly by toxins in your home, in your town or city, in your workplace, or in chocolate, apparently. Even with known toxins, in a lot of cases we don't know what levels are safe and how bad we're getting hit. And everyone has a different comfort level with known or potential toxins, just like how much dirt you're comfortable with, whether it's in your home or on your body.

But when it is a question of board policy it shouldnt be something that changes.

As lwien said, policies and rules are always subject to change. It used to be, in the US, that 18 yr. olds could legally buy beer, but not vote. Now it's the opposite. Forums rules certainly change. There was a rules change just this past week at marijuana.com, and that forum's been around for about 10 yrs. This forum is certainly a work in progress. It's only about 2 yrs. old and unlike most other forums, we allow posting by manufacturers and resellers. Toss out those two groups and we'd have a lot fewer unique problems. But I think everyone can see that allowing them to participate has benefits for members. You can't have it both ways. You don't get the positive aspect (benefits like inside info and discounts on vapes) without having to put up (to some extent) with the negative. It's our job to maximize the benefits while minimizing the downside. Sometimes that means making a change, trying something new, or even stepping on someone's toes in order to improve the forum experience for the majority of the members.

 

[vtac]

Thank you, max.

I feel that people may have missed the contents of my 're-opening post' so I will repeat some key points here.

This will be a civil discussion. If you can't post without breaking our be nice rules then do not post here. Infractions will be issued without warning.

Please also do not post if your comment consists of essentially: "I think it's safe" or "I think it's unsafe".

This thread was closed the last time because it turned into a hostile back and forth, consisting mostly of opinion. This time it will be civil, and factual.

To those who are upset by me re-opening this thread: Yes, I realize this is a touchy subject. The loyal following behind vaporizers is very cool, I totally understand that. However, this is a valid concern that should not be swept under the rug because of that. If you will go back and carefully read my post (#60), you will see that I am not being belligerent. I am asking for a civil discussion of facts.

Lead is a poison. Period. This much we DO know for CERTAIN. We also know that the brass in question does contain SOME lead. Much of this discussion will hinge on what the percentage is.

Rick, I know you'd like to see this put to bed as much as I would, so why don't you please share that information with us.

NOTE: Any posts that are off topic, consist solely of opinion, or that disregard the points outlined above will be removed until further notice. This thread will not be derailed.

 

[reece]

Is it safe to inhale fumes from any metal? Any metal will give off fumes if heated to the right temperatures, right?

Is it safe to inhale any metal that "could be scraped free and end up in the air stream as particulate?"

 

[vtac]

The thing is, lead is not just any metal. That's kind of the point.

Please stay on topic.

 

[lwien]

Yup. Lead has been outlawed in many products due to it's dangers. Hell, it's even outlawed in paint and I don't know of anyone who heats up paint.

Another point that needs to be made that is that there is such a thing as lead free brass. Lead is added to brass because it makes it easier to work with, but one can find brass that is lead free.

 

[Rick]

OK crew. I must say, VTAC, you prompted me to do something I have not yet done because I have always felt the same way about this issue. AZ/MZ is safe and I know it. A bit presumptuous but what I knew.
So I Email K&S engineering who makes the brass I have used for almost ten years. Wow, he gets back to me very quickly. I will copy/paste his reply to my query. Before I do though, I would like to say that this information was/is available to anybody that really even cares about lead in brass because these guys make most of what is available in the US. Yes, I could have done the same but I did not til today. Whoo hoo, there goes some drama on FC. We do not even need to talk about "not hot enough to release......" anymore. The tubing size quoted was everything I use that is in the vapor path except the heatsink which(just checked) is the same alloy.
Sure hope there is not some false info going around out there on some busy website.
Put this in your vape and suck a bit. And go ahead and chew my ass for not getting this out there earlier. I deserve it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From: Rick <myrtlezap@hughes.net>
To: ksmetals2@aol.com
Sent: Wed, Mar 31, 2010 2:37 pm
Subject: Brass tubing

Hi
I have been using your brass tubing for close to ten years in a product I make. I use 9/32, 5/16 and 11/32, 3 ft pcs. Could you please direct me to any information that will have the lead content, if any, of the tubing I use.Maybe an alloy number with % lead or whatever you can come up with will be a great help.
I love your brass.
Thank you

Our brass is alloy 260 which is lead free. Thank you for your kind words.

J.C. Pell
National Sales Manager
K&S Engineering

 

[SkeletonLips]

Awesome news, Rick!

 

[lwien]

Does your brass heat exchanger come from the same supplier?

 

[wthanna]

Excellent. I will not hesitate to recommend your product.
I think you'll find that releasing that small bit of information is going to make Rick a busy (busier) man

 

[steiner666]

OK crew. I must say, VTAC, you prompted me to do something I have not yet done because I have always felt the same way about this issue. AZ/MZ is safe and I know it. A bit presumptuous but what I knew.
So I Email K&S engineering who makes the brass I have used for almost ten years. Wow, he gets back to me very quickly. I will copy/paste his reply to my query...

...Our brass is alloy 260 which is lead free. Thank you for your kind words.

J.C. Pell
National Sales Manager
K&S Engineering

Good to hear, way to lay this discussion to rest!

 

[FEAR420]

Does your brass heat exchanger come from the same supplier?

did you miss the part where he said its made of the same alloy?

The tubing size quoted was everything I use that is in the vapor path except the heatsink which(just checked) is the same alloy.

 

[lwien]

Does your brass heat exchanger come from the same supplier?

did you miss the part where he said its made of the same alloy?

While the brass used in the tubing may not contain lead, alloy 260 can contain lead. See the following: http://www.onlinemetals.com/brassguide.cfm

The query that Rick posed to his supplier was specifically regarding the brass tubing, not the heat exchanger, and just because the heat exchanger is made from the same alloy does not automatically make it lead free.

 

[momofthegoons]

Now we can finally put this to rest.

 

[lwien]

Now we can finally put this to rest.

Not quite. See post above.

But we're getting a bit closer. Would like to see the chemical breakdown of alloy 260 from K&S in a similar format that is shown in the link above.

Are we being asked to jump thru validation hoops here? Well, yeah, but I think that's what this thread is supposed to be about, eh?

 

[reece]

The thing is, lead is not just any metal. That's kind of the point.

Please stay on topic.

I understand the point and I do believe I was on topic (but I've been wrong before). However, I was a bit pushed for time and couldn't fully elaborate on my questions but Rick's posts make it all moot now. Sorry if it seems like I was derailing.

Hell, it's even outlawed in paint and I don't know of anyone who heats up paint.

Are you serious? Because kids and pets can ingest any paint that chips/peels away. Isn't it?

I'm not disputing that inhaling or ingesting lead is dangerous. The question is are we inhaling or ingesting any lead. My point is, inhaling any metal fumes isn't good for you, but if you aren't inhaling those fumes blah blah blah....Like I said, moot point now.

 

[lwien]

I don't see it as a moot point at all, at least, not yet. See my last few posts above, for alloy 260 still may have lead content. I can definitely see a sales manager stating, after he saw that table, say something to the affect of, "well yeah, the lead content is so small that for all practical purposes, it is lead free." Again, I'd like to see the chemical breakdown of not only the tube alloy but the alloy that is used in the heat exchanger as well, like what was in that link (Online Metal's Guide to Brass), which clearly showed alloy 260 having lead content.

And I fully realize that I'm being kind of picky on this, but we are searching for the truth here, are we not, for the fact remains that national sales managers, regardless which company they are working for, are primarily salesmen and not technicians. So rather than just taking a salesmans word on this, I'd like to see the chemical breakdown of the alloy in question.

I found this on another site as shown in that link, and being as large as K&S is, I have no doubt that they too have something like this that is available to be viewed online.

 

[Rick]

Gee whiz lwien, you might have asked a bit more about the heat exchanger before getting so picky. The tubing NOT in question is pressed through the middle of the brass heat sink(sorry,different supplier), after I drill a hole through the middle of the heatsink. So the heat exchanger is "lined" with the NO LEAD brass tubing. That is where the Ohmhite 25j20re, the heater, (same as the PD) sits(in the middle of the no lead brass tubing). The air is then heated and passes thru the NO LEAD brass heatport tube and through the NO LEAD stem tip, into the contents of the NO LEAD brass stem tip and wala, vapor is produced......all with no lead in the vapor pathway.
Isn't that nice that we are not poisoning anybody? What a surprise!
Wonder if this is an example of "be careful what you ask for"?

 

[lwien]

Ok Rick. Being picky is what this thread is about, is it not. If we want to get down to the truth of the matter, being picky is mandatory. Secondly, no one here is claiming that you are intentionally trying to poison anybody, and that kind of condescending crap just isn't gonna fly, at least with me. Ok, enough of that rant. Back on topic.

Here is my stance on this. I posted up a link to a table that showed the chemical analysis of various types of brass, including 260 alloy and in that table, it clearly shows that that alloy does indeed contain lead. Although you may take a salesmans word that that alloy does not contain lead, I will continue to be suspect until I see detailed documentation, like what I posted above, that shows the chemical breakdown indicating that 260 alloy, indeed does not contain lead. So for me, the jury is still out.

Am I being picky by not taking a salesmans word on this? You betcha.
Am I open to being totally off base here and that the national sales manager, did in fact, give you correct information? You betcha.

Just have them supply us with a chemical breakdown online similar to the breakdown that I posted up here that shows that alloy 260 is in fact lead free and I will no longer challenge this issue. But in lieu of such documentation, and considering the information from the link that I posted above, for me, this issue is far from being put to bed.

Also, please keep in mind that prior to me mentioning in post #82 that there was such a thing as lead free brass, it was previously assumed, in all of the previous posts in this thread, that all brass had lead in it and it wasn't until I mentioned this that you then stated that your vape used lead-free brass.

Rick, I am not suggesting that your are intentionally trying to hurt anyone here. What I am suggesting is that the information that was provided to you "may" be inaccurate.

Edit: Ya know, after getting a bit vaked and thinking about this a bit more, I think I'm just gonna bow out of this debate. Said all there is to say really. So Rick, hope there's no hard feeings. As someone has so famously said, I'm just keepin' it real man. All the best.

Laters.........

 

[obelisk]

It is my understanding that lead-free brass in plumbing anyway doesn't mean the alloy has zero lead in it. It means lead is restricted to 0.25% of the alloy's composition.

the link posted up shows the lead percentage in brass allow 260 as 0.07% maximum.

Lead-free brass as defined by California Assembly Bill AB 1953 contains "not more than 0.25 percent lead content

source: http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/05-06/bill/asm/ab_1951-2000/ab_1953_cfa_20060818_134053_sen_floor.html

as far as i recall, the maximum lead content allowed in paint is 0.06%. this is 0.01% higher than the lead content in the brass that Rick uses. but once you consider that 0.06% lead is supposed to be safe in paint-- something that little children can potentially ingest-- i think the small lead percentage in the alloy Rick mentioned should be very safe. This is not a scientific fact. However, one may use a bit of logic, no?

Paint is something that creates the risk of your children ingesting it, with isn't good cuz paint has lead in it. So the govt said hey no lead in this shite man. Paint manufacturers said, hey lead, we need it, no lead no paint at these prices big brother. So the govt said, hopefully after some scientific testing, OK, but keep lead percentage below 0.06% please.

(check the third question in this faq: http://www.cpsc.gov/about/cpsia/faq/101faq.html)

If 0.06% of lead in paint is ok for children to eat, apparently (i'm pretty sure that if lead is allowed in a substance that is being consumed by children now and then, that the lead allowed in paint is at a safe ingestible level), then how is 0.07% in an alloy that none of us eat, in a heat port that arguably doesn't get hot enough for lead to be released and inhaled considered dangerous?

anyway, i am a writer, not a scientist, so i might have misunderstood or misrepresented those two links and other facts, or my ignorance of other scientific matters might be obscuring my ability to use logic, but this is what i understand and i hope i haven't made a fool of myself yet. hehe. but thus far, i don't really see a problem. there is no need for Rick to post a composition breakdown to be posted because the composition of alloy c260 has already been posted by Lwein. And it is the link that he posted that absolves the MZ of this whole brass issue as far as i can tell. does this all make sense or am i incorrect by a mile again (story of my life)?

 

[DevoTheStrange]

from my understanding of how the heatsink works, even though it has tubing going through the middle of it, the air still flows around the outside of the heatsink to get to the tubing. It has to touch the Heat sink before it even gets to the tubing. I would say that the air first begins to become heated once it touches the heat sink, not when it gets inside the middle tubing. The Vapor airway starts outside the unit, goes through the holes... Over the Heat exchanger, into the tubing up through the stem. So to say that the heatsink is not in the air path is not entirely true. . . .

 

[obelisk]

from my understanding of how the heatsink works, even though it has tubing going through the middle of it, the air still flows around the outside of the heatsink to get to the tubing. It has to touch the Heat sink before it even gets to the tubing. I would say that the air first begins to become heated once it touches the heat sink, not when it gets inside the middle tubing. The Vapor airway starts outside the unit, goes through the holes... Over the Heat exchanger, into the tubing up through the stem. So to say that the heatsink is not in the air path is not entirely true. . . .

as far as I can tell, rick did mention that the heatsink is part of the air path:

The tubing size quoted was everything I use that is in the vapor path except the heatsink which(just checked) is the same alloy.

I am not sure whose comment you were responding to, but the manufacturer of the MZ admits that everything that is in the vapor path, except the heatsink, was alluded to in the e-mail sent to the brass vendor/manufacturer. therefore implying that the heatsink is, indeed, part of the vapor path. what is the issue here?

regarding the no lead thing, I think the phrase 'no lead' is a misnomer. perhaps a more accurate phrase would be, legally safe brass I guess. who knows. the 260 alloy composition may differ (although it has to be 70/30 i.e. 70% copper and 30% zinc), depending on the manufacturer. but as of now, I am yet to find a single manufacturer that has listed the composition of alloy 260 to contain more lead than what is legally considered to be safe.

that raises the question legally safe in what applications I guess. i dunno. i am sure the info is out there somewhere but at this point i dont really care. those who question the safety of the MZ should be doing the research and pointing us to information that proves that the MZ is unsafe because of the lead in the brass used. right now it is the other way around, which is quite silly. the link lwein posted does not do anything except prove that the brass has lead in it. that is not proof of the MZ's purported toxicity, sorry. if science says paint with 0.06% lead is alright/safe, even after considering the danger of infantile ingestion, then i see no way that 0.07% or whatever is considered dangerous even if somebody took the damn brass used in the MZ and ate it as part of a 7 course steak lunch. well, you're probably gonna have a hard time taking a dump after that but you know what i mean.

as i said earlier though, i am involuntarily, and most splendidly, stupid so i could have gotten all this shite wrong. but this is how it reads out to me at this point. perhaps someone with more intelligence than what you could fit in a bulimic bee's arsehole (i.e. anyone smarter than i) could come in and direct this conversation to its fricking conclusion.

chorus: amen

 

[DevoTheStrange]

from my understanding of how the heatsink works, even though it has tubing going through the middle of it, the air still flows around the outside of the heatsink to get to the tubing. It has to touch the Heat sink before it even gets to the tubing. I would say that the air first begins to become heated once it touches the heat sink, not when it gets inside the middle tubing. The Vapor airway starts outside the unit, goes through the holes... Over the Heat exchanger, into the tubing up through the stem. So to say that the heatsink is not in the air path is not entirely true. . . .

as far as I can tell, rick did mention that the heatsink is part of the air path:

The tubing size quoted was everything I use that is in the vapor path except the heatsink which(just checked) is the same alloy.

But in the above statement He is only addressing that the tubing used is lead free, he does not answer anything about the heat sink, he even says it is from a different supplier. Just because they are the same kind of alloy does not mean that specific supplier offers lead free brass. I see what the logic of why lwien brought it up.
Rick supplied the information on only half of the vapor path. The vapor path is not just the inside of the tubing, it is also everything on the outside of those tubes as well. So that still leaves a unknown in the equation. Ricks explanation of the tubing would be sufficient if the heat stayed only in the tubing, which it does not... now if he had said it was from the same supplier I would not have an issue. But he stated it was not the same supplier.
what would put it to rest for me would be an email from the supplier, since it differs from that of tubing, of the brass for the heat sink. The tubing has already been covered.

 

[reece]

I'm confused Devo. If a particular alloy is made up of a specific percentage of materials why would it matter who supplies it? 304 stainless steel is 304 stainless steel no matter who you buy it from, isn't it? And as Obelisk points out, Rick already stated all brass is the same alloy. This could just be my ignorance of metal but
why give it a name (alloy C260) if there wasn't some sort of standardization? It seems as though you are suggesting that alloy C260 from one supplier could have a higher lead content than alloy C260 from another. If this is the case, the name seems to mean nothing.