Discontinued Healthy Rips FIERCE

[His_Highness]

I know those 'suits', or at least many like them. In the end they are a necessary part of the team, without them you have no customers.....and then no job?

I think the world of HR, and have said so many many times. Still do. Outstanding outfit, but it doesn't mean they're scientists or really understand the claims? They have their opinion here, I have mine, I've given the reasoning behind mine...... I'm betting they (or the other makers and 'expert reviewers' who make this claim) can cite such support. How many of them honestly paid that much attention in science classes, enough to remember the important details these days? I sure don't blame them for that, not think they're being intentionally dishonest. The almost certainly believe what they say is true.
OF

Gotta disagree with regard to the "suits". Selling refrigerators to the Eskimos stopped working in my industry decades ago. They aren't a necessary part of the team anymore and in reality can BS their way into an uptick in short term sales before the BS causes the company to shut down based on reputation. They don't create jobs, they destroy them. Sales is the lifeblood of any company and in this day and age that tainted blood is terminal for the company. Goodwill is actually an intangible asset in accounting for a reason. There are still some dinosaur like BS sales people out there but thanks to the internet they no longer succeed in the long haul. I've personally seen these sales types shown the door in corporate America and many are now selling things like cars and audio equipment because corporate America won't go near them. This is why I made a point to call out your implication that HR was making false claims to increase sales. Glad to see you walked it back to be that their incorrect scientific views are an honest mistake.

I believe HR did their homework before making their claims. So now the only thing left to debate is whether HR is correct or you are. IMO opinion HR got it right but everyone is entitled to their views.

 

[OF]

Sales is the lifeblood of any company and in this day and age that tainted blood is terminal for the company.

This is why I made a point to call out your implication that HR was making false claims to increase sales. Glad to see you walked it back to be that their incorrect scientific views are an honest mistake.

I believe HR did their homework before making their claims. So now the only thing left to debate is whether HR is correct or you are. IMO opinion HR got it right but everyone is entitled to their views.

I think I said sales types ('suits') are a necessary part of the team? In fact, in the very text you quote me saying:

"I know those 'suits', or at least many like them. In the end they are a necessary part of the team, without them you have no customers.....and then no job?"

I didn't say they were lying to boost sales, simply that since 'everyone else' is making those claims they can be expected to? In fact it would subjectively malpractice not to do so? It's in the nature of the job.

There is, of course, the traditional tension between Sales 'promising the moon' and blaming Engineering and Production for not delivering.....also part of the pageant.

FWIW, I don't see any 'walking back' my opinion, more like trying to correct a misunderstanding no doubt caused by my inability to communicate well? I thought HR was a top notch outfit before (and said so many times), still do. I just think Sales can be expected to make such claims under the real circumstances.

I'm not so sure they 'did their homework' (studied Thermodynamics) as much as 'followed suit' with their competitors (again please read no slight there, 'par for the course'?). But you're right everyone gets an opinion, I try to back mine up with hard facts (as best I can), something not always present? I believe most modern vapes make vapor by conduction, convection not being a significant factor, for those reasons. In fact heated air coming in at less that load temperature lessens not increases vapor production (by 'stealing heat' that would otherwise make yet more vapor). Clearly others differ, although why (past wanting to think so) I'm not sure. Perhaps it's just what they've been told?

I remain open to evidence I'm mistaken. Anyone?

Thanks for the frank discussion, I think it's been very good and useful for those who care.

Regards to all.

OF

 

[MothChewMoth]

I think I said sales types ('suits') are a necessary part of the team? In fact, in the very text you quote me saying:

"I know those 'suits', or at least many like them. In the end they are a necessary part of the team, without them you have no customers.....and then no job?"

I didn't say they were lying to boost sales, simply that since 'everyone else' is making those claims they can be expected to? In fact it would subjectively malpractice not to do so? It's in the nature of the job.

There is, of course, the traditional tension between Sales 'promising the moon' and blaming Engineering and Production for not delivering.....also part of the pageant.

FWIW, I don't see any 'walking back' my opinion, more like trying to correct a misunderstanding no doubt caused by my inability to communicate well? I thought HR was a top notch outfit before (and said so many times), still do. I just think Sales can be expected to make such claims under the real circumstances.

I'm not so sure they 'did their homework' (studied Thermodynamics) as much as 'followed suit' with their competitors (again please read no slight there, 'par for the course'?). But you're right everyone gets an opinion, I try to back mine up with hard facts (as best I can), something not always present? I believe most modern vapes make vapor by conduction, convection not being a significant factor, for those reasons. In fact heated air coming in at less that load temperature lessens not increases vapor production (by 'stealing heat' that would otherwise make yet more vapor). Clearly others differ, although why (past wanting to think so) I'm not sure. Perhaps it's just what they've been told?

I remain open to evidence I'm mistaken. Anyone?

Thanks for the frank discussion, I think it's been very good and useful for those who care.

Regards to all.

OF

I'm curious to hear your thoughts about the results of the test done by @Solomon . I should actually be able to try this out tonight too if we're looking for a larger data set. This debate definitely has me intrigued and looking more at some of the teardowns to get a better understanding of how the heat is being applied. I'll post up my results tonight.

Unrelated to this, I had reached out to HR regarding the nichrome heater and "robot fart" taste, based on their post a few weeks ago. They offered to have me send in my Fierce for the Fierce 2 once it releases, since the new heater will be SS (and theoretically not share the taste). Has anyone heard anything yet about the Fierce 2?

 

[Wolf46]

The fierce is here.

Is it normal that the battery inside is absolutely dead?? Like 0 volts? My cousin is kinda an expert with batteries and he said to me that a totally drained lipo battery is not a good thing at all for the battery life.

I mean yeah you have to charge the device for 3 hours before the first use but my cousin still think that a totally drained lipo is bad news.

I'm probably gonna try the device tomorrow, tonight i have the first charge and numerous burn off cycles to do.

 

[OF]

I'm curious to hear your thoughts about the results of the test done by @Solomon . I should actually be able to try this out tonight too if we're looking for a larger data set. This debate definitely has me intrigued and looking more at some of the teardowns to get a better understanding of how the heat is being applied. I'll post up my results tonight.

Very substandard vapor, at least it's been so when I've tried it. As I'd predict. Folks get vapor 'in the low 300s' but what you get at that level is modest by 390 standards.

Certainly not what you'd expect given the temperature setting?

If the load is already at 390 (by conduction), introducing air heated to any temperature below that actually lessens production of vapor. Since in passing through the load it must 'steal' additional heat to get to 390 to exit the load, heat that would otherwise make yet more vapor. The closer we can preheat the air the less this effect.

Please understand it has to all cool before we inhale it or we'd cook our mouth, throat and lungs.....ironically by convection. What we call vapor really isn't. Vapor is individual gas molecules distributed throughout the air. What we call vapor is really an aerosol. Fine particles suspended in the air. In our case liquid THC (and other stuff), sort of a 'THC fog' that happens as it's cooled and there can no longer be individual molecules. Instead it forms 'clouds' or 'fog' of droplets from less than a micron (1000th of a mm) to a dozen or two. The smaller particles, say less than 2 microns, pass out again without a statistically useful chance of hitting a wall somewhere and being absorbed (as opposed to 'glancing off'). Ones larger than several microns (fortunately pretty rare I'm told) stick uselessly on the first damp tissue they find. We end up swallowing them for the most part. This 'ideal size range' is, I'm told, the reason some vapes seem more effective with the same loads......and it makes sense to me based on what I already 'know' (which is how adults learn, building on skills from before, children learn by rote).

BTW. I think the observation by another Member above that an idle (from cold) load will blow vapor backwards through the heater is an excellent one. One that supports the idea that that vapor was produced by conduction, not convection?

Thanks for asking, enjoy your experiment and the understanding it'll hopefully bring you.

Regards,

OF

The fierce is here.

Is it normal that the battery inside is absolutely dead?? Like 0 volts? My cousin is kinda an expert with batteries and he said to me that a totally drained lipo battery is not a good thing at all for the battery life.

I mean yeah you have to charge the device for 3 hours before the first use but my cousin still think that a totally drained lipo is bad news.

Congratulations, good choice IMO. Subject to your exact 'wants' perhaps the best available?

I wouldn't panic just yet. While zero volts definitely means a totally trashed 'battery', it's a protected cell and the circuit has no doubt isolated it when it got to 3.0 or so to save it's little life. That is I don't think it's really zero despite what you read on the terminals. Solo packs are built this way.

You should always fully charge a new cell before use. One time. This establishes the maximum capacity it'll ever have (it only goes down from there). After that there's solid reason (like longer life) for stopping recharges a bit early. Just 10% early will DOUBLE the useful number of cycles in fact. Information on Battery University discuss this in detail.

If it doesn't recover, for sure contact HR. How it got that discharged (it should come to you at about 60% charged ideally) is a bit of a concern. It could be a defective cell or protection circuit (high leakage current). Or someone in the factory got sloppy and got saved by the protection circuit? Once you've got it going I suggest you partially charge it and let it sit for a week or so (hard to do with a new toy for sure) and see if it loses charge over time on it's own.....if so same deal, contact HR.

In the mean time, charge it up (even after it seems to have stopped on it's own the first time) then kick back and enjoy an excellent vape. That's why you bought it, right?

Regards,

OF

 

[His_Highness]

Very substandard vapor, at least it's been so when I've tried it. As I'd predict. Folks get vapor 'in the low 300s' but what you get at that level is modest by 390 standards.
OF

You asked for folks to perform a test. @Solomon did the test and noted that the test resulted in vaping well using just hot air. You report performing a similar test and were underwhelmed by the amount of vapor produced concluding it couldn't be convection or hybrid.

I've seen this movie several times before....it's not that it doesn't end well....it's that it never ends.

 

[OF]

You asked for folks to perform a test. @Solomon did the test and noted that the test resulted in vaping well using just hot air. You report performing a similar test and were underwhelmed by the amount of vapor produced concluding it couldn't be convection or hybrid.

I've seen this movie several times before....it's not that it doesn't end well....it's that it never ends.

Have you actually tried it yourself? Do you think it performs the same? For that matter, does the OP?

Back to they bicycle analogy, if you push it at a few MPH, that's not the same as riding at 20. You can't really ride and push at the same time?

I suggest this experiment confirms no useful vapor is produced by convection while conduction is going on.

OF

 

[His_Highness]

Have you actually tried it yourself? Do you think it performs the same? For that matter, does the OP?

Back to they bicycle analogy, if you push it at a few MPH, that's not the same as riding at 20. You can't really ride and push at the same time?

I suggest this experiment confirms no useful vapor is produced by convection while conduction is going on.

OF

I suggest @Solomon confirms the opposite (He said vaping well with just hot air) and your response was as expected. Nothing new here...this is how this plays out each and every time.

 

[Wolf46]

Thanks for the info @OF

My cousin is pretty sure that i have an already dead battery, he is very pessimistic about it, i hope he is wrong, i kinda hate doing rma and i have a trip where i need 2 batteries in less than a week.

I bought an additional battery for the device and this battery is already fully charged, do i have to do a long first charge for that too? (My cousin said no but i like to hear more opinions).

the dead battery at least is charging up right now, it's a good sign isn't?
edit: the fierce is kinda warm during the charge (not uncomfortable, just a little warm), is it normal?

 

[Stu]

Have you actually tried it yourself? Do you think it performs the same?

Why would you expect it to perform the same when you're not using it as it's intended to be used? Going back to the convection oven analogy, it'd be like asking someone to cook a meatloaf in their convection oven with the door open (in order to "prove" there is not enough convection alone to cook the meat loaf). No reasonable person should expect the convection oven to work the same with the door open; and expecting the Fierce to perform the same whilst not being used as designed is equally silly IMO.

 

[ohmygodimsohigh]

Why would you expect it to perform the same when you're not using it as it's intended to be used? Going back to the convection oven analogy, it'd be like asking someone to cook a meatloaf in their convection oven with the door open (in order to "prove" there is not enough convection alone to cook the meat loaf). No reasonable person should expect the convection oven to work the same with the door open; and expecting the Fierce to perform the same whilst not being used as designed is equally silly IMO.

Maybe he's also on all of those cooking appliance forums trying to rewrite 50 years of nomenclature and enforce his new rules and definitions of convection.

 

[ohmygodimsohigh]

I apologize. Both for back-to-back posting and the backhanded comment. It felt more funny when I typed it.
There are better ways to express my opinions.

I mean no disrespect personally. I just grow tired over the dead horse beating - especially when the point is so moot.

 

[OF]

Why would you expect it to perform the same when you're not using it as it's intended to be used?

I certainly don't expect it to as I thought I'd explained? Evidently not. It's an experiment trying to separate conduction from convection effects as much as possible (I suspect that while we can completely eliminate convection by not drawing, some conduction will occur still with the stem raised, it comes heated when I tried it with no convection). Specifically you'll hopefully note I was responding to "@Solomon did the test and noted that the test resulted in vaping well using just hot air."?

"Vaping well" is awfully subjective. I'm asking is it as well as you'd expect from that same temperature under normal conditions. I'll maintain the 'heat soak conduction with no convection' test meets that definition. You get a normal hit (without convection). Or at least I did?

I definitely don't expect it to perform the same in that mode as it normally would, that's the point???

FWIW I think the 'open oven door' argument doesn't work unless you can show hot air leaking out in this test. I think the seal is the same in the test as normal use? No leaks. Actually much more hot air should be available since the entire cup walls contribute, not just the tiny surface area of the walls of the four ports available in normal mode.

Fun discussion. Thanks.

OF

 

[GetLeft]

I'm no smarty but that link Stu provided as testimony to a hybrid vape simply supports what OF says. That patented device does not produce vapor by convection. It produces it by conduction. It's a steel bowl attached to a heating element. Does the element heat air around it? Yes. Does it heat the air hotter than it is? How could it? But it would have to to keep the air heated to temp, since as soon as cool air is introduced, the air temp drops dramatically. So the heated air is not producing the vapor. The bowl that's hardwired to the element is producing the heat. All that the air heated by the element can do is lessen heat loss caused by the airflow.

To have a true hybrid vape -- and again, the concept escapes me, why bother? and why promote a device as one? -- you would need a) an element dedicated to heating the air and b) a separate element dedicated to heating the bowl, because two different temperatures would need to be maintained. The concept is absurd.


EDIT: I enjoy my Fury. When I get friends to vape with I'll pick up a Fierce.

 

[ChooChooCharlie]

I apologize. Both for back-to-back posting and the backhanded comment. It felt more funny when I typed it.
There are better ways to express my opinions.

I mean no disrespect personally. I just grow tired over the dead horse beating - especially when the point is so moot.

Troy, that post was very cool!!

Echoes your positive spirit/intention in your recent livestreams. Not to get all Oprah about it, but accurate IMO. You continue to improve and raise the bar for vape review production. Genuine, sincere, but thankfully very funny also

Same positive vibe waves I feel from @OF , who is always there to welcome and offer advice to newcomers. His posts are both helpful and thought provoking, with wonderful teaching examples, usually served with a dash of dry wit

@Stu , however, is just a plain old bastard

Think my favorite posts on FC were debates between @OF and @Stu on this very topic years ago

HR and @OF were both super cool generous to Vito as well. Apologies to HR for riding along on this temporary derail

 

[OF]

It produces it by conduction. It's a steel bowl attached to a heating element. Does the element heat air around it? Yes. Does it heat the air hotter than it is? How could it?

To have a true hybrid vape -- and again, the concept escapes me, why bother? and why promote a device as one? -- you would need a) an element dedicated to heating the air and b) a separate element dedicated to heating the bowl, because two different temperatures would need to be maintained. The concept is absurd.

EDIT: I enjoy my Fury. When I get friends to vape with I'll pick up a Fierce.

Thanks, I think you understand my point. It obviously can't heat hotter than it is, the first Law of Thermodynamics says heat can only flow from hot to cold. The hottest thing in the system is the hottest thing in the system.

I agree I don't see an advantage to a hybrid, but think you're right such a rig would require a separate heater running at a much hotter temperature. Might be fun with both having independent controls, a guy could pick the exact balance he wants?

I agree Fury is an excellent personal vape. I use mine far more than FIERCE, but when it comes to keeping the gang happy a more powerful heater and larger load have serious advantages......

@Stu , however, is just a plain old bastard

Thank you very much for the kind words, always happy to help when I can. As they say, 'if you can't inform, at least amuse'......

I disagree about our @Stu however, IMO he's a true treasure on this here Forum. Keeps things on track, a critical function if we're to enjoy such a positive place and exchange ideas. He has strongly held beliefs which he generally expresses very well. A true gentleman, even if he and I don't always agree. His contribution should not be under rated.

He's not alone, of course, lots of good folks around here. But IMO he stands out a lot. His service to this Forum is 'above and beyond' for sure. Both as a Mod and a Member. We could use more like him.

Regards to all. Time to enjoy a load and reflect on other things. Hot here, but cooling off, time to head for the garden.....

OF

 

[ChooChooCharlie]

Oops, humor is in the eye/ear/mind of the beholder

my mistake ... yet again ... a routine for me

@Stu should publish our PM debate over relative pressure change with carb capping, in the vape tech forum. I still think I'm more correct. Please note the word "more"

 

[ohmygodimsohigh]

We should vape now

 

[OF]

Oops, humor is in the eye/ear/mind of the beholder

my mistake ... yet again ... a routine for me

Great news! Glad I missed the humor, thanks for setting it straight.

That's twice you've made me happy in one night. Perhaps not a record, but nice none the same.

We should vape now

Indeed. Truth be known I got ahead of you. Now I'm going to load up and try to catch up.......

OF

 

[OF]

I bought an additional battery for the device and this battery is already fully charged, do i have to do a long first charge for that too? (My cousin said no but i like to hear more opinions).

the dead battery at least is charging up right now, it's a good sign isn't?
edit: the fierce is kinda warm during the charge (not uncomfortable, just a little warm), is it normal?

It really shouldn't be fully charged when you get it. Full charge, especially at higher temperatures, destroys capacity over time. It should be about 3/4 charged for storage (shipping and delivery).

I always recommend a full charge, even 'overcharge' before first serious discharge. Using 'chicken soup' logic, "can't hurt, might help". Potential gains are modest, but why not take every advantage?

Yes, both indicating charging and warm temperature are good signs.

Some good information on the subject at BU, like here:
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

Stuff around table 4 is perhaps the most useful. It says stopping charging 'a bit early' doubles the useful lifespan for a very modest decrease in run time per recharge. Not as important on batteries easily replaceable like here (as opposed to say Fury), but free extra life is nice.......

Good luck with it.

OF

 

[Wolf46]

Yeah ok the dead battery is working fine, i'm doing a lot of burn off cycle before use, tonight i'm probably gonna use the device with the weed finally.

So just to be clear, do you advicse a full 3 hours charge even for the secondary almost full battery that i bought, am i right?

 

[LesPlenty]

even for the secondary almost full battery that i bought, am i right?

Yep, have fun getting to know your new friend.

 

[OF]

So just to be clear, do you advicse a full 3 hours charge even for the secondary almost full battery that i bought, am i right?

Yep, have fun getting to know your new friend.

Listen to the man, LP is wise.......even if he does live where it goes the other way when you flush and the locals throw bent sticks and all. Funny rules on beer, too.

Just one time. After that my advice is to fully change then immediately enjoy a session so you don't leave it at full charge. Tough I know, but it's your duty if you want to be as nice as possible to your new friend.

Especially the enjoy your new vape part, that's the key you know. You should do that part as often as possible?

Regards,

OF

 

[LesPlenty]

Cheap user-replaceable batteries to me = ride em hard and put em away wet, my Mighty and CFX live at 80% though until needed(big inboard batteries).

 

[OF]

Cheap user-replaceable batteries to me = ride em hard and put em away wet, my Mighty and CFX live at 80% though until needed(big inboard batteries).

I understand the idea, and to be honest I usually consider easy replacement a plus. But there are reasons for the trade off. Smaller packages and 'cheaper' (lest costly) production among them. Who among us isn't a fan of cheaper cost and smaller vapes (with the same performance)? There's also reliability, extra connections can cause extra problems not found in internal powered units.

IMO this here Capitalist market thing is great, it gives us wonderful choices to pick and choose from in the marketplace. Makers are eager to build what we will buy....... How cool is that?

OF