Experiences with $200+/- PID Controllers

[Phreman]

I haven't had much luck trying to find a reliable source of information regarding PIDs (if I missed a thread, please link and I'll give it a look over). I am wondering if anyone can share their experiences/opinions regarding what would be good purchase for a light user. I imagine I would only need one port, as even if I have multiple coils, I wouldn't be needing them on at the same time. I am looking mostly for reliability/$, aesthetic is a plus.

DHGate https://www.dhgate.com/product/port...-dab/410939634.html#s1-22-1b;searl|2841251630
Its is probably the cheapest option. Maybe not the most accurate temp, but would get the job done. If it burns itself out... just order a new one. Could I get 5-10 years of use out of this thing with only light weekend use?

NewVape https://www.newvape.com/enail/enail-coils-controllers
I expect to be purchasing a Newvape shower head, so I would save on the shipping if I went with their PID (international customer). I expect the controller quality would be the same as something brought straight from China, though the warranty might last a tad longer. I don't like the idea of a unique connection for their coils as if I need to replace a coil, I am forced to go through NewVape, assuming they still sell them at that point.

RDK 200/300 https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=45
I am leaning towards this as I am... guessing... the quality might be a bit more reliable. Despite being more expensive, I imagine I would go with the 300, overheat control sounds like a plus, better looking, and then the shutoff timer is dealt with. I hear these coils are somewhat proprietary as well, despite being the same type of connection as most others. And if that is the case... why not just get the NewVape?

HighFive https://highfivevape.com/e-nails/e-nails-electric-nails.html?coil_output=12
I don't really know anything about these. They look just like the Chinese ones.

Are there any products or features that I'm missing which are worth consideration? The hex-coil is neat looking and is moreso a computer but... I think I just want a reliable device that provides somewhat accurate heat.

 

[Ramahs]

I don't have any advice for the OP, because I'm still looking to get my first enail controller.

I've had my eye on a HighFive (LED #2) for a bit, as HighFive seems to have a great reputation for that sub-$200 range.
That's just what I've gathered reading discussions and reviews.

 

[jojo monkey]

Auber's have screens that face up and use knobs. The rdk300 is the only one with a built-in off timer.

The rest face out and use buttons.

The highfive and newvape are wired/jacked differently than what is considered the norm. They will be your heater seller for all future purchases.

A PID is just maintaining a temp. Some can read the temp more times a second than others. The omron e5XX is the king of features. The manual is a book.

I'd go with what is cheapest. If you are handy it is easy to make a PID box and it will be more serviceable than any of the controllers. The relay will most likely be the first part to go. From what I've seen, none have user replaceable relays.

 

[ensabbahnur]

I haven't had much luck trying to find a reliable source of information regarding PIDs (if I missed a thread, please link and I'll give it a look over). I am wondering if anyone can share their experiences/opinions regarding what would be good purchase for a light user. I imagine I would only need one port, as even if I have multiple coils, I wouldn't be needing them on at the same time. I am looking mostly for reliability/$, aesthetic is a plus.

DHGate https://www.dhgate.com/product/port...-dab/410939634.html#s1-22-1b;searl|2841251630
Its is probably the cheapest option. Maybe not the most accurate temp, but would get the job done. If it burns itself out... just order a new one. Could I get 5-10 years of use out of this thing with only light weekend use?

NewVape https://www.newvape.com/enail/enail-coils-controllers
I expect to be purchasing a Newvape shower head, so I would save on the shipping if I went with their PID (international customer). I expect the controller quality would be the same as something brought straight from China, though the warranty might last a tad longer. I don't like the idea of a unique connection for their coils as if I need to replace a coil, I am forced to go through NewVape, assuming they still sell them at that point.

RDK 200/300 https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=45
I am leaning towards this as I am... guessing... the quality might be a bit more reliable. Despite being more expensive, I imagine I would go with the 300, overheat control sounds like a plus, better looking, and then the shutoff timer is dealt with. I hear these coils are somewhat proprietary as well, despite being the same type of connection as most others. And if that is the case... why not just get the NewVape?

HighFive https://highfivevape.com/e-nails/e-nails-electric-nails.html?coil_output=12
I don't really know anything about these. They look just like the Chinese ones.

Are there any products or features that I'm missing which are worth consideration? The hex-coil is neat looking and is moreso a computer but... I think I just want a reliable device that provides somewhat accurate heat.

Trying to answer in order

PIDs can last pretty much forever as they have no moving parts and most are originally from industrial applications so they have an extensive track record (as long as your wiring is quality)

When buying from newvape/high5/any other china PID with an american front......you are getting the same box you'd get from china, but with whatever company you buy it from doing the front line service and replacement if you have any issues, newvape especially is known to be very forthright and transparent in their operations and Id have zero worry from buying from them (although the different jack size for the coils is a huge turn off for me)

The Auber units come highly recommended, in fact Id be hard pressed to think of a time anyone had anything negative to say about their experiences with the Auber units. Its prolly the most "advanced" of the "basic PIDs" offering auto turn off and a few other features beyond just temp control. They make a lot of thermal control systems and as a matter of fact Im pretty sure they designed a lot of the "no name chinese" PIDs and just had them rebadged as generic. Also their coils follow the "standard" dnail wiring setup so Im not sure in what way they are proprietary, they do feature an uncommon design on their flat coils that I personal find to be vastly superior to most other flat coils on the market. Their units are also good to at least 250w and while other controllers may be able to support that much, they don't make it a known feature.

High5 is solid gear, I myself have a few of their controllers and have had no real issues to speak of minus a small configuration tweak I had to do in order to silence an unneeded clicking. The main "drawback" to High5 is their coils use their own pinouts and do NOT (without an adapter) support the "standard" wiring that dnail, Auber, Hex, AugustHaus, Disorderly Conduction, and many other use. Performancewise the coils (all else being equal) will perform the same but you are forced to buy coils from High5 and can't use any custom sized coils without additional equipment/purchases.

TLDR:

If I had it to do over again, my first controller would have been an Auber, having said that I have zero complaints with my High5 (Omron e5cc based are their LCD units, pretty much the top of the line PID based unit with an enhanced display that is EASILY worth the few extra bucks a unit with that PID will command) other then Id have rather not had to mess with 2 pinouts on my various cables/coils. If you want a good blend of looks and perf www.ewaxcanada.ca makes a unique unit featuring the e5cc PID and wired to the dnail standard, true automotive grade paints (including real metal flake), real walnut end caps and really slick silicone coated coils for not a whole lot more than the other units you were considering (bear in mind his prices listed are in CAD so USD is gonna be a bit less and shipping from Canada is very reasonable)

 

[Phreman]

Thanks Jojo & Ensabbahnur, I never considered making my own controller. Good to know its quite possible. Shame its not easy to repair commercial devices as the DIY ones look so easy to work with.

eBay sells basic PIDs including SSR, thermocouple, and heat sink for $15 ( https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_BIN=1&_nkw=pid+controller&_sop=15 ).

After looking around a bit, this is the most step by step video walkthrough building a similar controller for those interested.

While watching people use DIY enails, I noticed the temp would drop 30-45 degrees when the person was taking a longer draw. (

) It would be good to know if this temp drop can be seen on any controllers using a basic PID, including a RDK300, or is this due a poor build.

Omron E5xxs are selling for around $65 stand alone. I am not sure what this PID offers over a basic unit. But if it allows a more constant temp and keeps a timer to turn the device off, that could make it worth the price difference. I'm going to look more into these and try to find out their benefits.

Finding more threads as I continue to look, I do feel the Auber is probably the best commercial controller for me. I am trying to find out if the relay is external. If not, how much that matters. No self repairs I imagine. But on a quality unit... [more reading]

 

[biohacker]

they do feature an uncommon design on their flat coils that I personal find to be vastly superior to most other flat coils on the market

Curious, what is this design and why do you find it superior?

I LOVE my high5 lcd w/ omron. My d-nail sic halo heats up in a minute (or less) and the response from it is much better than my previous vapecode from newvape (hated that one).

 

[ensabbahnur]

Curious, what is this design and why do you find it superior?

I LOVE my high5 lcd w/ omron. My d-nail sic halo heats up in a minute (or less) and the response from it is much better than my previous vapecode from newvape (hated that one).

Check the last couple pages of the Hex nail thread and I posted a pic of Hex's coils and they look the same.

Its like they took a flat ribbon of heater coil, laid it on its edge and wrapped it so when it heats up and will tend to expand, it will unroll horizontally instead of swelling vertically as most other coils that are ovals or tubes will do. Plus you have much better coil coverage as you end up with a lot more coil touching your dish/nail

Edit: Yeah i can't stress enough how boss the Omrons are, the speed of heating up and not over shooting, the stability and speed of heat recovery......if you ever get a chance to see one function side by side with something else, I all but assure you the Omron would make whatever other nail you have aside from a Hex or Kube, look and perform like a high school science project. Even if you feel you need to save a few bucks by building your controller yourself (which s really simple) you'd do yourself a disservice by using any other PID for the "brain"

 

[invertedisdead]

@ensabbahnur have you used an Autonics TC4S PID?

 

[ensabbahnur]

@ensabbahnur have you used an Autonics TC4S PID?

Nah, can't even say I've ever seen one after looking it up. Their TX series looks similar to the e5cc though I think the omrons display still looks much better

 

[invertedisdead]

Nah, can't even say I've ever seen one after looking it up. Their TX series looks similar to the e5cc though I think the omrons display still looks much better

That's the PID Powers Plates is building into his controllers for his rosin set. Seems pretty nice.

 

[Ramahs]

I don't have an enail controller, and very much want one soon, for both the Flowerpot and a standard nail (titanium or otherwise). But I'm not a wealthy man, so I'm looking for a budget enail controller at the lower end of the price spectrum. That's why I've been looking at Highfive.

So, either way, I'm going to be watching this thread closely.

 

[Baron23]

IMO, this

RDK 200/300

Mostly because the performance meets all my requirements (which I personally don't think need to be too rigorous to boil off concentrates well) but especially because they have good tech data and support that I can call up in the USA and understand them.

But I also have an Omron E5CC with external SSR controller and it also works perfectly. @Phreman, if you look at Omron's manuals, they pretty much tell you how to wire these things up (plus more than I can understand haha). If you do build one, consider putting in two switches; 1) for main power to the box and; 2) another in line with the power to the coil so you can turn your coil off without turning the whole unit off (not really needed but I think its a nice addition and if you are building the box, why not).

if you do go Omron, I do have a set of PID settings that seem to be rather universally acclaimed for working with enails. Got it from my friend @mutten840 but have seen it many places on the net since.

But, since you are in CAN, this really may be interesting. Looks like a very nice unit. Comes out to about $233 but includes the coil and Ti nail (I personally could live without the nail part for less $$). Auber's equiv package is about $166 USD. Really up to you.

If you want a good blend of looks and perf www.ewaxcanada.ca makes a unique unit featuring the e5cc PID and wired to the dnail standard, true automotive grade paints (including real metal flake), real walnut end caps and really slick silicone coated coils for not a whole lot more than the other units you were considering (bear in mind his prices listed are in CAD so USD is gonna be a bit less and shipping from Canada is very reasonable)

 

[Flower of empathy]

It would be good to know if this temp drop can be seen on any controllers using a basic PID, including a RDK300, or is this due a poor build.

How good/bad a controller reacts does not depend on built quality, it are the settings of the 3 PID values (Proportional Integral and Differential) that determine how it reacts. It works with some standard values, but for perfect values it would need specific optimization for the personal setup and draw speed...
Actually for those systems the Differential value is not that important and could be set to 0, so it's only a PI controller that makes adjusting a bit easier... (and keep value changes small, wrong values can destabilize/amplify the system reaction )

 

[jojo monkey]

I never considered making my own controller. Good to know its quite possible.

Hell yeah! I made my 1st one with parts from lightobject.com. It can be a bit cheaper when you don't use ebay or amazon and the seller has less fees. I went with the jld612 which has a nice amount of features.

Here's my first box:

Be sure to get a SSR that has at least 2X the amps you need if you go with chinese parts. You can prob skip the heatsink if you just put it at the bottom of a case.

I actually frankenstien'd that PID to make an aurduino based one.

Best of luck.

Id be hard pressed to think of a time anyone had anything negative to say about their experiences with the Auber units.

If a vape has a responsive heater, the overshoot protection cannot be turned off and the vape will just cut off the relay if you go over the set temp. The workaround is to tune it a little under the set temp. A non-auber PID will go over the set temp and the relay won't cut off (unless you tell it to with a setting).

So I'd say the auber has the least amount of configurable settings compared to most of the other chinese controllers. I am sure they did this to keep it simple for folks. The auber also lacks an autotune for PID settings. Many controllers have it and some don't even document it.

3 PID values (Proportional Integral and Differential) that determine how it reacts.

I agree that the PID settings can change how it responds. There are other things at play too. Controllers tend to refresh 1-4 times a second. This has nothing to do with PID settings, this is just how often it can read from the temp probe The thickness of the temp probe wire and end can also mess with the response time.

 

[ensabbahnur]

If a vape has a responsive heater, the overshoot protection cannot be turned off and the vape will just cut off the relay if you go over the set temp. The workaround is to tune it a little under the set temp. A non-auber PID will go over the set temp and the relay won't cut off (unless you tell it to with a setting).

So I'd say the auber has the least amount of configurable settings compared to most of the other chinese controllers. I am sure they did this to keep it simple for folks. The auber also lacks an autotune for PID settings. Many controllers have it and some don't even document it.

Ive reread that first paragraph a few times now and Im not following exactly what you're trying to say. You're saying non Auber can't stop overshooting temps? Thats definitely not right. You're saying an Auber can't stop overshooting? That also isn't right. Turning down the temp? Did you mean turning down the high output limit instead? Im sure I'm just not following your post correctly.

I know the Omron after you swap nails to something different, can over shoot a bit the first time, but then it nails it every heat up afterwards, this is from a fully default state.

While the Auber definitely don't seem to hold a candle to the Omron in raw configuration options, looking through the Auber supplemental manual, and NEVER claiming to be a PID expert, I see pretty much every setting I think one would need to fiddle with to get things tight.......could you maybe point out anything, aside from auto tune, that a normal Joe Blow vaporist would be missing? Only other thing I could see would maaaaaaybe be the option to use different type thermocouples but that'd be a pretty fringe case.

 

[jojo monkey]

Auber can't stop overshooting temps?

The second the actual temp cross the set temp, the relay cuts off. It stops mid-cycle. You end up with temps that wobble more than they should because of the cutoff. I imagine most wouldn't notice with a nail - I see this when I hook a cartridge heater up to it. On any other PID I can tune the actual temp to run hotter than the set temp and it won't cut off. Imagine a rocket that has the engines cut off as soon as it crosses a certain height. Well maybe we want the engines to keep running if we accidentally cross the set height? The auber cuts off, the rest will keep the engine going if you go over. Overshoot protection vs none.

The shortest way of putting it is that the overshoot protection overrides the PID settings.

edit - i added rockets

 

[Phreman]

So your saying that if you set an Omron to 700, it will more easily overshoot, let's say 710, then come down, while the Auber will cut earlier, maybe get to 702?
If I have that right, I could imagine this would make the unit have to power on more frequently, as it will in turn, drop below the desired temp faster. Could this lead to the device failing faster?
I'm trying to work through this "wobble" factor regarding its effect during a draw, but I dont think so, as a device probably would ever get to a desired temp while cold air was passing by. Maybe on a really gentle draw the Auber could be flickering on and off. Probably a noot point.

 

[ensabbahnur]

The second the actual temp cross the set temp, the relay cuts off. It stops mid-cycle. You end up with temps that wobble more than they should because of the cutoff. I imagine most wouldn't notice with a nail - I see this when I hook a cartridge heater up to it. On any other PID I can tune the actual temp to run hotter than the set temp and it won't cut off. Imagine a rocket that has the engines cut off as soon as it crosses a certain height. Well maybe we want the engines to keep running if we accidentally cross the set height? The auber cuts off, the rest will keep the engine going if you go over. Overshoot protection vs none.

The shortest way of putting it is that the overshoot protection overrides the PID settings.

edit - i added rockets

Ok I'm following your explanation, but I really don't see why you would want to set a thermal limit, to just have a "feature" to say its ok to exceed it. Whats the point of having the altitude cutoff on your rockets if you're just gonna have them keep going.....you'd just raise the height limit? And I guess again, does Joe Blow vaporist miss this ability? Im understanding that coils are powered by basic PWM, heating for so many ms per cycle then off the rest......if my understanding is right (and it may not be) how is overshoot protection any different then the PID itself just cutting the power when the set temp is hit....one way or the other?

@Phreman Im pretty sure you're worrying too much about it for a "light user" but if you're getting into the gear or tech of it all, the choice of nail will have, IMO and when using any enail controller in a default state that I have ever used or even heard of, a much more significant impact on temp "wobbles". A PID with bunk settings can definitely cause huge fluctuations but Im talking default states. A Liger is absolutely massive compared to a Halo setup or a Highly Educated setup and will have little to no temp fluctuation where the Halo for instance will drop quite noticeably if you even blow across the dish surface. Can you fiddle (endlessly) with your PID settings to minimize any thermal fluctuations whatsoever? sure, but physics are physics and more mass on whats being heated is much easier to maintain at a set point (again, basing this on my experiences with many combos of controllers and nails over a long, long period of time) and again, as long as you wiring is solid and components are quality, a controller should last longer then you will.

 

[Phreman]

How good/bad a controller reacts does not depend on built quality, it are the settings of the 3 PID values (Proportional Integral and Differential) that determine how it reacts.

Is it correct to say that the basic Chinese PID units don't have the option to adjust any of these values so you will see more temp fluctuation on them Vs a higher end PID, or is it moreso the basic units don't have any documentation so your flying blind in its settings?

as long as you wiring is solid and components are quality, a controller should last longer then you will

Cheers Ensab, your right about me overthinking it for a basic user. Since I missed the 420 sale, I figured I would try to put together a solid understanding of the controllers for myself and others while I wait for the next sale. From what I've concluded (granted I'm new), I feel the RDK200 (US build quality and warranty) is a more reliable buy than one of the similarly priced DHgate style Chinese controllers. And a RDK300 would be a solid buy for just about any basic user. I appreciate the remarks about the coils being different as that is something I wouldn't have thought of. Don't listen to me, I'm new.

Since I am favouring a DIY build, one thing I wish I could find out is if the Omron unit has a shut down timer setting programed in like the RDK300 does. I feel like this is important feature for anyone with cats or toddlers, and having it built into the PID cuts out notable bulk from the setup. I am going to look through the manuals one more time and if I'm still lost, maybe I'll bug Mutton820 about this since it sounds like he has good understanding.

 

[Flower of empathy]

I agree that the PID settings can change how it responds. There are other things at play too. Controllers tend to refresh 1-4 times a second. This has nothing to do with PID settings, this is just how often it can read from the temp probe The thickness of the temp probe wire and end can also mess with the response time.

Yes, that adds some limitations, but those delays would be implemented as 'death-time elements' etc in the equation for the whole system to get the PID values in the theoretic approach...

Is it correct to say that the basic Chinese PID units don't have the option to adjust any of these values so you will see more temp fluctuation on them Vs a higher end PID, or is it moreso the basic units don't have any documentation so your flying blind in its settings?

Well i'm in EU and the market is pretty different (bad) over here, so i also made my own 'frankenstein' controller - i can set the values via good old RS232 with an old WinXP pc , so i can't say anything about those china stuff...
Adding to that there are different usable criterias to define a stable system - with my settings it will never reach the set temp fully but it also will never overshoot...but it does not react like it's described with the auber that sounds not PID like, just ON/OFF like the volcano bi-metall ?

 

[JCat]

Where the Omron outshines the others is in its PID algorithm. It’s not using a std one, but rather a 2-DOF (degree of freedom) PID which improves stability significantly in terms of disturbance response ... the difference is massive IMHO in terms of temp stability for our purposes.

 

[Baron23]

the auber that sounds not PID like, just ON/OFF like the volcano bi-metall

It absolutely is PID.

 

[jojo monkey]

but those delays would be implemented as 'death-time elements' etc in the equation for the whole system to get the PID values in the theoretic approach

Getting the pid values is one thing.. that's a stable system. Slow probes/controllers should make the recovery take longer. How does the system know to raise the temp when the temp is reported in a sluggish way?

Whats the point of having the altitude cutoff on your rockets if you're just gonna have them keep going

I've messed with tuning for an aggressive recovery. Sometimes you want to overshoot when you are knocked down after a draw.

I really should not be putting so much into this. It is not an issue that will mess anything up. For nails it seems fine. For my vape is works fine if the pid settings keep the actual well below the set temp.

Since I am favouring a DIY build, one thing I wish I could find out is if the Omron unit has a shut down timer setting programed in like the RDK300 does. I feel like this is important feature for anyone with cats or toddlers, and having it built into the PID cuts out notable bulk from the setup. I am going to look through the manuals one more time and if I'm still lost, maybe I'll bug Mutton820 about this since it sounds like he has good understanding.

I don't think it has a relay in it (guessing). I think you're gonna need to flip a second relay or a breaker. I don't know if the omron can do that. I once messed with a setting for omrons that used 2 deifferent PID settings based on how far the actual temp was from the set temp. The idea was to have a slow warm up and an aggressive settings for hits. IMO the omron is overkill if you are only gonna autotune.

I know an arduino will let you do whatever you want. You just need to hook up the relays to it and add a temp probe breakout board. A bit of coding is required. The arduino pid library is pretty solid. Nice read here.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

@jojo monkey - i appreciate the PID links. i'm back working on my PID algorithm for the latest iteration of my Bud Toaster ... i need to tame the startup overshoot and too aggressive recovery during a draw. the current algorithm was tuned for a nichrome wire coil and the ribbon coil is less resistance, so, faster response with 70Amp batteries.

 

[Flower of empathy]

Getting the pid values is one thing.. that's a stable system. Slow probes/controllers should make the recovery take longer. How does the system know to raise the temp when the temp is reported in a sluggish way?

well, it's still part of the control cycle which has to react on the 'disturbance function range' (drawing air)
The disturbance reaction/damping can be optimized with the PID values in different ways for preferred criterias...
but to simplify the overthinking i guess that's the condition that u mean:
T_Draw >> T_ControlCycle

Or even more overkilling would be user and watertool specific profile settings with a self learning optimizing algo but in the end i don't think there is any difference in effect if it's +/- 0,1C or +/-5C and that can be achieved way simpler (i used a 40 year old line recorder to tune my frankenstein )...

tame the startup overshoot and too aggressive recovery during a draw

that might be the result of a 'wind up' effect of the I-Part... Maybe play a bit with I set to 0, so it's only a PD controller which has a bit faster reaction by nature than PID but it's a bit of tradeoff with precision...