CalyxSmokr
Well-Known Member
To be fair I did edit to add that vape qualifier. My original post was self contradicting without "from vaping". Although I won't disagree entirely with the spirit of your statement
Driving whilst high
- Thread starter bluenavey00
- Start date
biohacker
H.R.E.A.M
I respect your view, but IMO weed is way more powerful than caffeine or nicotine. I understand tolerance can occur for all three, but in general everyone knows that those are stimulating. I'm not sure many students use cannabis to stay alert and awake compared to other said poisons. But as always, it comes down to how new a person is to that substance. I personally would feel way safer and choose for someone to have a smoke, or couple of cups of coffee over a joint. I guess it depends on the quality of cannabis though!
You make a good point, but the "stoner kid" who is so high he doesn't notice a stop sign because he's "zoned out" isn't just bad driving. He may have thought he knew his limit.
That's what I thought too, but it's not as easy as you think, and be prepared to spend alot of time in court, which most officers hate. I personally feel all police cars should be stealthy and unmarked. Even the unmarked ones here are pretty obvious.
Irrelevant if they feel very little. Your argument is no different than a caffeine, nicotine, or sugar "buzz". Honestly, I never understood how a true chronic "stoner" could catch a buzz with tolerance. Same with some members here like @ataxian who gets uber medicated daily.... I don't understand it myself, but everyone's brain chemistry is different.
Have you not heard the term smoke yourself sober??? IME, that is REAL.
Ahhhh, now I understand! I can't believe I never even considered that. What about the red eyes though?
I haven't had bloodshot red eyes in years, same with the munchies, due to tolerance of vaping daily. If my tolerance is virgin like after a break, that changes. There must also be massive differences between vaping and combustion, so with combusting you're not inhaling a whole slew of nasty chemicals that not only cause cancer, but also surely affect your reaction time, etc. An entire different can of worms.
And all the other non-pharmaceutical drugs too eh? You can't have your cake and eat it too man.
I agree completely, but see my statement right above. You can't cherry pick, which is exactly what you're doing here.
I'll tell you this, it's 4:20am (how ironic), I am a month cannabis free (fuck my life), and I slept maybe 3-4 hours last night, I have a headache, I feel like i'm going to throw up, and need to drive today. Due to these issues my psychological state is "not happy", and i'm sure my reaction time, etc. isn't what it should be.. however, I can shake it off and do my best, and yet will be legal enough to drive, and never go to jail if I kill someone due to "fatigue". If I just vaped a microdose right now, i'd feel awesome, headache vanish, mood skyrocket, and focus increase on the road. But, i'd be legally fucked. That's fucked. So I guess I should poison my brain with caffeine, and not be able to sleep tonight repeating the cycle further. Some people simply need their meds to function, and the saliva testing prevents this, while essentially encouraging other dangerous drugs and practices. It's not about our wellbeing bro. It's a system, and a fucked up one at best.
It sure sounds like it!
Respect, those times are pertinent to you, and you only...everyone is different and should know whether they have passed the line, just like alcohol. It's not like people self administer a breathalyzer themselves before driving, they go by "feel". Due to my body mass I can theoretically get away with drinking 2 beers in an hour. I still personally feel that there are strong "effects" even within the legal limit.
There is a difference between edibles and vaping/combusting. And regardless, with different potencies, how much food is in your stomach, state of mind, etc. it gets far too complex.
This is starting to get ridiculous on the verge of trolling, and pointless IMO. Imma gunna go back to
Hazy, even just letting us know if you're in your 20's or 30's helps IMO. Not sure whussup with the paranoia about stating your age, you're still very quite anonymous man.
EDIT: Redact difference between edibles and vaping if out of context due to the edit mentioned.
Baron23
Well-Known Member
Wow.....well, I would say that given the distance between parties and the passion with which people feel toward their position...well, I think we have all been pretty peaceable considering. LOL
This is how it breaks down for me:
1. My current understanding is that there is no effective test to prove cannabis intoxication. With alcohol (and broadly speaking...so please don't throw the maintenance drinking alcoholic into the mix), blood chemical levels are very indicative of intoxication. Yes, its a second order function, once removed from intoxication, but BAC still is pretty indicative of intoxication along with other road side tests. Personally, I don't care what's in your blood, but I do care if you are on the road with me and are intoxicated. Unless and until a test for cannabis intoxication (not THC blood or urine levels) has been developed and proved, I don't believe that there can be a fair driving test for driving under the influence.
2. I actually do believe....and a belief really is just an opinion with a bit of passion....that the "I drive better when vaped" crowd really stretch to justify their behavior because...well, because they want the convenience of driving (wanting to have your cake and eat too, yeah?). Very understandable. I'm not particularly sympathetic to this argument, however, and to me its a lot like very elderly people defending their right to drive (also for their convenience) when they simply do not have the capacity to do so safely anymore. Want to have a fraught conversation, talk to one of your elderly, blind as Mr. Magoo, family members about giving up their driving license.
3. I medicate these days. Look, I smoked my first J when I was 14 and there wasn't anything "medical" about it then or for a very long time after. But after a successful and demanding career, I'm now 64, have chronic pain issues that cause chronic sleep issues and I almost exclusively vape for medical reasons and do so just prior to going to bed. HOWEVER, medicated to me is definitely fucking stoned on my ass. I want to knock myself out so I can get some sleep. I would not take kindly to someone denigrating my medical usage of cannabis unless they have a back MRI like mine. LOL What constitutes "medication" takes many forms depending on the malady.
4. WRT to driving while intoxicated on cannabis, I posted earlier that most of us wouldn't want the pilot of our A-300 or our surgeon to be intoxicated on cannabis or any other damn thing else, whether they think it makes them better pilots and Dr.s or not. The response I got was that driving was not flying an A-300. True. But you may feel that driving still needs the same level of sobriety, caution and skill after an intoxicated driver t-bones your teenage daughter in traffic. Piloting an aircraft...performing surgery...no, driving is not as demanding of an activity as that...but it does demand attention, situational awareness, alacrity in cognition and reactions, etc...none of which are enhanced by any intoxicant IMO...and the consequences failure is often as devastating.
5. There has been some talk of how long after vaping one is sufficiently 'sober' to drive. Dunno really. But I can tell you that while in the USAF there was a hard and fast rule of 12 hours from bottle to throttle. Not because we were still drunk. Alcohol is metabolized at about an once per hour. But this rule is in place simply because intoxicants tend to have a deleterious impact on our recognition, coordination, and reactions well beyond the time that real intoxication has ended. I have no good measure for how to apply this view to MJ.
Ok, defend yourselves at all times. Ding, ding, ding. Round 10!
This is how it breaks down for me:
1. My current understanding is that there is no effective test to prove cannabis intoxication. With alcohol (and broadly speaking...so please don't throw the maintenance drinking alcoholic into the mix), blood chemical levels are very indicative of intoxication. Yes, its a second order function, once removed from intoxication, but BAC still is pretty indicative of intoxication along with other road side tests. Personally, I don't care what's in your blood, but I do care if you are on the road with me and are intoxicated. Unless and until a test for cannabis intoxication (not THC blood or urine levels) has been developed and proved, I don't believe that there can be a fair driving test for driving under the influence.
2. I actually do believe....and a belief really is just an opinion with a bit of passion....that the "I drive better when vaped" crowd really stretch to justify their behavior because...well, because they want the convenience of driving (wanting to have your cake and eat too, yeah?). Very understandable. I'm not particularly sympathetic to this argument, however, and to me its a lot like very elderly people defending their right to drive (also for their convenience) when they simply do not have the capacity to do so safely anymore. Want to have a fraught conversation, talk to one of your elderly, blind as Mr. Magoo, family members about giving up their driving license.
3. I medicate these days. Look, I smoked my first J when I was 14 and there wasn't anything "medical" about it then or for a very long time after. But after a successful and demanding career, I'm now 64, have chronic pain issues that cause chronic sleep issues and I almost exclusively vape for medical reasons and do so just prior to going to bed. HOWEVER, medicated to me is definitely fucking stoned on my ass. I want to knock myself out so I can get some sleep. I would not take kindly to someone denigrating my medical usage of cannabis unless they have a back MRI like mine. LOL What constitutes "medication" takes many forms depending on the malady.
4. WRT to driving while intoxicated on cannabis, I posted earlier that most of us wouldn't want the pilot of our A-300 or our surgeon to be intoxicated on cannabis or any other damn thing else, whether they think it makes them better pilots and Dr.s or not. The response I got was that driving was not flying an A-300. True. But you may feel that driving still needs the same level of sobriety, caution and skill after an intoxicated driver t-bones your teenage daughter in traffic. Piloting an aircraft...performing surgery...no, driving is not as demanding of an activity as that...but it does demand attention, situational awareness, alacrity in cognition and reactions, etc...none of which are enhanced by any intoxicant IMO...and the consequences failure is often as devastating.
5. There has been some talk of how long after vaping one is sufficiently 'sober' to drive. Dunno really. But I can tell you that while in the USAF there was a hard and fast rule of 12 hours from bottle to throttle. Not because we were still drunk. Alcohol is metabolized at about an once per hour. But this rule is in place simply because intoxicants tend to have a deleterious impact on our recognition, coordination, and reactions well beyond the time that real intoxication has ended. I have no good measure for how to apply this view to MJ.
Ok, defend yourselves at all times. Ding, ding, ding. Round 10!
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Farid
Well-Known Member
Surgeons and fighter pilots are jobs which are extremely selective. If we take away sick people's ability to drive, they have to rely on others and alter their lives significantly. I was forced to drop a semester, and live at school the following semester when I lost my license from a seizure. That's a lot of money I wouldn't have had to spend otherwise.
No reasonable person is saying we should be able to drive intoxicated, they are saying we should be able to drive with THC in our blood, because otherwise people who use cannabis daily (even those who only use before bed) would have high THC levels in their blood, and wouldn't be allowed to drive.
No reasonable person is saying we should be able to drive intoxicated, they are saying we should be able to drive with THC in our blood, because otherwise people who use cannabis daily (even those who only use before bed) would have high THC levels in their blood, and wouldn't be allowed to drive.
Baron23
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I do get that but find that to be a pretty self-centered view. And I'm not unsympathetic to people's medical conditions as I am a medical MJ patient myself. But at the end of the day, whether from your medical condition or your medication, its still sort of "sorry, and its too bad you are sick...but you still have no right to endanger others no matter how much you would like to drive like a healthy person". And you certainly can endanger MANY others by your driving (would you like me to cite accident reports with deaths and casualties from car accidents). Others on the road depend upon your correct action just like in more critical professions.
And frankly, while I regret your having to spend money to live at school when you couldn't drive, what if you hurt someone in an accident as a result of having a seizure. What about their time, money, and basic well being? What about them losing their job and their families livelihood due to not being able to work and a direct result of an injury from an accident you cause? This happens every day and is a valid concern IMO.
Did you read my post...especially the part where I discussed my view that there is no current test that can distinguish between intoxication and merely presence of THC in your body? Here is the relevant part:
I'm still good with my post and I do thank you for your reply even if we don't agree on this issue.
Farid
Well-Known Member
You are misinterpreting my post. I am NOT saying that I should have been able to drive following my seizure. I am just saying that I have experienced 1st hand what it's like to not be able to drive for a reason out of my control, and it makes life very difficult.
You might think my view is self centered, I just see it as advocating for sick people. We used to be sterilized (something else which was justified for the "greater good"), so we have come a long way, but we still have an uphill battle.
You might think my view is self centered, I just see it as advocating for sick people. We used to be sterilized (something else which was justified for the "greater good"), so we have come a long way, but we still have an uphill battle.
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Farid
Well-Known Member
I am advocating that sick people should not lose their license for THC being in their system if they are not intoxicated. I understand you agree with me on that point, but then you bring up that people claim that being intoxicated makes you a better driver. Nobody reasonable is making that claim, and it is muddying the waters of an otherwise thoughtful discussion.
Thank you for the apology. I would advocate for you as well if they said people over 60 should not be able to drive.
Thank you for the apology. I would advocate for you as well if they said people over 60 should not be able to drive.
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CalyxSmokr
Well-Known Member
Hey it sounds like a great solution - because somebody with no tolerance can't drive (maybe) then it is OK to arrest smokers anytime we want if they dare get behind the wheel.
Sounds like a plan cooked up by the distiller's trade association and Richard Nixon.
Driving is not a right. If you want to get all stoned out then you give up the chance to do something you are not impaired from doing. Sorry, Hippys
Sounds like a plan cooked up by the distiller's trade association and Richard Nixon.
Driving is not a right. If you want to get all stoned out then you give up the chance to do something you are not impaired from doing. Sorry, Hippys
Agreed for the vast majority of those making it. It is a selfish thing they are doing and gives legit, non impaired, maintenance dosing, medical users a bad name.
What we should do:
Establish a minimum baseline for overall functionality in order to be able to drive. Some people, even at their best, have no business behind the wheel. Others have enough wiggle room that a bit of allergy meds, tired, whatever, and they are still "safe drivers".
Obviously the devil is in the details. We are nowhere near being able to establish/enforce such a thing. Neither tech or social/societal responsibility wise. But with advances in self driving ve-hickles and black box tech we may get there eventually.
The thing is ... the police have full authority to press impaired charges without anything but roadside sobriety tests (walk straight line etc) and observation (slurred or confused speech, eye movement, etc). There is absolutely no need for any type of hard blood level limit or other (although if a fair test could be established than by all means)
Police even frequently succeed with the impaired charge if the >.05 or >.08 charge can't be pushed through for whatever reason
Police even frequently succeed with the impaired charge if the >.05 or >.08 charge can't be pushed through for whatever reason
CalyxSmokr
Well-Known Member
the problem is that smokers don't fail sobriety tests.
Sadly, that IS the problem with most "under the influence of cannabis" drivers.
Also why statistics and news stories love the term "marijuana related".
Baron23
Well-Known Member
I think you may want to read, or re-read, this thread from the beginning because exactly that has been claimed.
Cheers
Farid
Well-Known Member
The problem is there are several debates going on in this thread. The people making the claim that being intoxicated makes them a better driver are in the minority. There are others who are saying that having some % of THC in their system (negligible amount from a session several hours ago) is safer than having no THC in their system and having symptoms of their conditions emerge.
And I think you need to reread my posts as well, because I agree with you, but you say that my view "self centered" which is absurd considering we agree...
I disagree with your portreyal of driving being in the same league as jet flying or any other high responsibility task which required 12+ hours free of all substances. That's now how driving laws work for most drugs, thank God. That would give law enforcement a carte blanche to arrest anybody drinking a coffee or smoking a cigarette who looked at them the wrong way.
And I think you need to reread my posts as well, because I agree with you, but you say that my view "self centered" which is absurd considering we agree...
I disagree with your portreyal of driving being in the same league as jet flying or any other high responsibility task which required 12+ hours free of all substances. That's now how driving laws work for most drugs, thank God. That would give law enforcement a carte blanche to arrest anybody drinking a coffee or smoking a cigarette who looked at them the wrong way.
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DirtyD
Well-Known Member
I travel for work and I honestly can't remember last time I drove on a work trip without my vapes all loaded up and ready till I get out of city , on the highway and start puffing. A couple bowls on a 5 hour trip ain't too crazy with my tolerance. Helps with the long ride. Put on some good tunes, ice cold ice water, I'm all set. Happy and safe driving to all and cheers, D
Aimless Ryan
Came to read about grinders; fucked combustion
I haven't driven in just over a year. Does being high on my power chair at 6 mph count? I could fuck some shit up with that thing.
I think if you've vaped within the last week or so and are driving that chair they should definitely throw you in jail and throw away the key. Or at least long enough to seriously fuck up your life. After all, there's nothing like punishing the hell out of someone for a victimless crime.
And just think, you could do something that distracts a driver and causes an accident. Hell, sounds like we should throw people in jail for walking within a week of being medicated. In order to use cannabis one should probably be strapped down for the month just to make sure they don't hurt themselves or anyone else!
DirtyD
Well-Known Member
I read somewhere recently (here?) About a ' pico' laser beam thinghy the man can just point at you and get a readout of every chemical in your system. I hope to Jesus or whoever that that was a nightmare tho. But i think maybe not...Seems they already have one going in Arizona or some shit. Yikes! Just picked up on the thread, excuse my coarseness if this has been discussed. Cheers ,D
Aimless Ryan
Came to read about grinders; fucked combustion
Everyone (Americans) please get to know the US Constitution's 4th Amendment very well. It is your friend. NEVER cooperate with a cop if he/she doesn't have a search warrant or hasn't already witnessed you commit an infraction of the law. And in those cases, maybe still don't cooperate. Assume everything they say is a lie, because it usually is. Lying/intimidation is pretty much the only way these fucking idiots are able to get evidence. Nothing you say can help you. It only helps them bust you.
If you have not committed an infraction, or if cops do not have a search warrant for you, they have no right to know ANYTHING about you. That includes your name/identification.
It's very fun to fuck with cops by knowing their game better than they know it, but it also might land you in jail like it has me a couple times. I got to know their game because when you walk very long distances with a large backpack, as I have, you get fucked with by cops a lot.
C No Ego
Well-Known Member
Cops should have to pass a PEACE course before given a Gun or badge... and go back to keepers of peace or peace officers....
biohacker
H.R.E.A.M
Don't forget guys, not all cops are fucking idiots or assholes, although I can see why when they deal with fucking idiots all day long.
There are cops and there are cowboys.... no different than all the cowboys and yahoos on the volunteer fire departments that get themselves killed.
It just reflects poorly on the good ones that are actually really good hard working people when you generalize. They have families to come home to and support as well, and don't actually do the job for an "identity" but rather for just a means to make a living.
Unfortunately, the good ones get labelled the same as the bad ones.
There are cops and there are cowboys.... no different than all the cowboys and yahoos on the volunteer fire departments that get themselves killed.
It just reflects poorly on the good ones that are actually really good hard working people when you generalize. They have families to come home to and support as well, and don't actually do the job for an "identity" but rather for just a means to make a living.
Unfortunately, the good ones get labelled the same as the bad ones.
C No Ego
Well-Known Member
I have so much respect for those guys and how they can stay sane while dealing with constant low life type people.... I guess most cops are silent judges all the time... even when off duty..
Aimless Ryan
Came to read about grinders; fucked combustion
During my long walk, in about the middle of Missouri (about 20 or 30 miles east of Jefferson City, I think), there was a sheriff deputy who stopped and asked me if I was OK; if I needed any help. He didn't fuck with me or anything; just did what cops are supposed to do. When I told him I was fine, he left. That guy was awesome. I thanked him as he began to pull away.