My thoughts are that's completely fine if you a recreational user, however as a medical user I disagree with those imposed limitations and will continue to exercise civil disobedience.
I disagree that recreational and medical users should have different laws to abide by. The level of THC in your system that makes you a danger on the road should be determined, and then everyone should have to abide by the restrictions.My thoughts are that's completely fine if you a recreational user, however as a medical user I disagree with those imposed limitations and will continue to exercise civil disobedience.
I disagree that recreational and medical users should have different laws to abide by. The level of THC in your system that makes you a danger on the road should be determined, and then everyone should have to abide by the restrictions.
Whether or not Cannabis helps medicinal users is irrelevant when it comes to the safety of others.
I thought you meant that the restrictions on blood THC content were ok for recreational users and not medicinal ones.I never said they should have different laws to abide by. I said as a recreational user, that's fine to reduce consumption to .02g a day if you want but as a medical user I won't stress myself out over such small tolerances. Consider the alternatives - now someone who is afraid to medicate for fear of police checkpoints instead has a seizure while behind the wheel and drives through a school zone cross walk. Is that safer?
There is no generic magic number that makes someone "safe"
Statistically it's currently irrelevant to even debate such when so many other dangers to driving could be mentioned. I'm a million times more concerned with people texting while driving than those using cannabis. If statistical numerical data can demonstrate it is a leading problem amongst drivers I'll change my mind, but until then there is a lot of BLAME amongst cannabis and impaired drivers, but not a lot of factual evidence. Just propaganda.
Also, while you may not "feel" high, I do believe there are dangerous (for driving) effects of Cannabis, that are dependent on blood levels of THC.
I wouldn't be surprised if minute amounts of THC in the blood causes slowed reaction times, and increased focus, the latter of which isn't ideal when you need to be aware of the entire environment, and not just the space directly in front of you.Such as?
There are lots of people period that aren't good at quick thinking or fast reactions but they can still get a driver's license and pass the test LOTS of people ... should we have minimum fitness and intelligence levels to drive? (we sort of do but they are very, very low)I wouldn't be surprised if minute amounts of THC in the blood causes slowed reaction times, and increased focus, the latter of which isn't ideal when you need to be aware of the entire environment, and not just the space directly in front of you.
I think Cannabis has lots of benefits, but I don't believe it is safe to drive while under its influence. It would be great to have more legitimate, unbiased studies on the effects of residual THC in the body, at different time periods after your last ingestion of it. In my opinions, the long lasting calmness (however mild) you get from Cannabis use (especially daily use which keeps the THC levels in your body at higher levels), can't be good for quick thinking and fast reactions.
Well, I do believe we should have stricter tests for licenses. Some of the people we allow on the road are clearly unfit for driving. I also think we should have repeated retesting after a certain age. Just because you managed to pass a test when you were 20 doesn't mean your reflexes haven't slowed to dangerous levels by the time you are 60-80yrs old. I've mentioned a lot this stuff in the Driving While High thread, in the past.There are lots of people period that aren't good at quick thinking or fast reactions but they can still get a driver's license and pass the test LOTS of people ... should we have minimum fitness and intelligence levels to drive? (we sort of do but they are very, very low)
I kinda' agree with a lot of what you say, but the part about residual THC levels and calmness is too far IMO ... there is probably a time frame after consumption for safe limits, but the level for chronic users and residual levels from repeated use unnecessarily penalize chronic (and thus medical) users. I have much less residual effects after consuming .1-.2 two hours prior to driving than a non-chronic user, and would pass all roadside type tests, but would fail the saliva and blood tests I imagine.
THC content vs alcohol content in blood do not equate to the same thing ... the levels are not relatively linear in the same way I don't think ...
Yea, I agree. Maybe we should revive that thread, and the can of worms that lives in itAn interesting topic for sure, but I think the effects of cannabis on driving would be better suited for its own thread instead of a thread on micro-dosing (where we're still after desired effects but with reduced amounts).
An interesting topic for sure, but I think the effects of cannabis on driving would be better suited for its own thread instead of a thread on micro-dosing (where we're still after desired effects but with reduced amounts).
Yea, I agree. Maybe we should revive that thread, and the can of worms that lives in it
There are lots of people period that aren't good at quick thinking or fast reactions but they can still get a driver's license and pass the test LOTS of people ... should we have minimum fitness and intelligence levels to drive? (we sort of do but they are very, very low)
I kinda' agree with a lot of what you say, but the part about residual THC levels and calmness is too far IMO ... there is probably a time frame after consumption for safe limits, but the level for chronic users and residual levels from repeated use unnecessarily penalize chronic (and thus medical) users. I have much less residual effects after consuming .1-.2 two hours prior to driving than a non-chronic user, and would pass all roadside type tests, but would fail the saliva and blood tests I imagine.
THC content vs alcohol content in blood do not equate to the same thing ... the levels are not relatively linear in the same way I don't think ...
That goes back to the fact that "the lesser of two evils" argument isn't a sound one.FWIW, I do vape while driving pretty regularly. More an issue of how life is right now than the fact that I can't wait until I get to my next safe spot to get high. And, when the GF and I go on a road trip of more than an hour to anywhere, you know my vapes are loaded and ready to go before I even put my shoes on! Are my driving skills all they could be when I'm doing this? Hell no! Are they still better including attentiveness, reaction times, etc, than more than 75% of the idiots and assholes on the road? Unquestionably!
Monday I was 1 VC load in and feeling pretty good while cruising around on a beautiful day. The idiot in front of me (looked like a soccer mom with the fish and other religious stuff on back of mini-van) probably was not stoned. But, had the music up loud enough that she couldn't hear my repeated horn blasts to go when the green arrow was up for our turn. She was apparently texting or doing something else with her phone. I'm not saying I'm more right than her, but was easy to watch her looking down and swerving all over the road when we finally moved along after the next traffic light cycle. Who would you rather be on the roads with? Me, with a slight buzz and probably reduced reaction times and peripheral vision? Or, a typical self absorbed asshole that can't get off the texting even while in motion to the point of regularly shifting over the yellow line?
This may be true, but there has to be a set a standard to follow. It's not feasible to have a different limit for everyone, so the minimum potentially dangerous limit for the average population should be the standard. You can't set laws on DWI based those who lie on the extreme ends of the tolerance spectrum.Physical impairment, especially as measured in blood levels or swabs, has little to do with safety or ability to drive unless you're blitzed. I'm not talking about slit open eyes whether from 4 or 5 VC loads or a BAC of .15 or something. It never has, and it never will.
Do you have any studies to suggest that there is no THC (not THCOOH) stored in,and released from our fatty tissues?as to thc that accumulates in fat... the thc that does is not active metabolites but the ooh spent or burnt out waste metabolite version of the compound... once activated via heat (decarboxylate) the thc is active for a short period of time before environmental degradation takes over and that active thc is spent... there can be residuals occuring but it is not so much the active (psychoactive) form of that molecule... you can feel in your biology when thc is active and when it's not...
converting thc to delta 11 hydroxy via high thc food edibles is about as close to residual effects as possible though the time to convert thc over to 11 hydroxy is more the active effects as there is still metabolic waste derived from 11 hydroxy,, not sure if it's ooh or what?
Key results:
ACTH increased THC levels in the medium of THC-pretreated adipocytes in vitro. ACTH also enhanced THC release from adipocytes in vitro when taken from rats repeatedly pretreated with THC in vivo. Finally, in vivo ACTH exposure and 24 h food deprivation both enhanced the levels of THC and its metabolite, (-)-11-nor-9-carboxy-Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC-COOH) in the blood of rats that had been pre-exposed to repeated THC injections.
Conclusions and implications:
The present study shows that lipolysis enhances the release of THC from fat stores back into blood. This suggests the likelihood of ‘reintoxication’ whereby food deprivation or stress may raise blood THC levels in animals chronically exposed to the drug. Further research will need to confirm whether this can lead to functional effects, such as impaired cognitive function or ‘flashbacks’.
Things like stress, weight loss, food deprivation, exercise, etc., can cause this stores THC to be released in higher quantities. So far, I've yet to find a study that acurately assesses the physical effects this remaining THC has on our minds/bodies.
I've cut out many people (alive and dead) out of vehicles, and most of the time it has been related to alcohol and/or drugs.
How many due to cannabis?
The danger is real but 2ng is absolute bullshit. Scam science and law enforcement.I posted this in another thread but thought it relevent to this one too . It relates to roadside and post accident drug testing. Saliva testing here in the UK is standard now and the limit is set at 5ng following a positive result a blood test will be given and the prosecution level is set at 2ng.
Looking at scientific research carried out a few years ago it reads that amongst 10 patients* tested with 25mg of thc ( 0.1g of strong 25% thc bud ) all 10 tested below the 5ng threshold after 24 hours but 2 would have failed the test after 16 hours and 5 out of 10 would have failed after 8 hours
So in short if you smoke more that 0.1 grams you may not be safe to drive within 24hours. Safe from having to do a blood test back at station that is.
To save you guys the trouble Ive worked through the table and adjusted the diluted numbers and these are the amounts of THC found in the swabs of each of the 10 subjects after a single 25mg THC splif after 8 and 16 hours.
Patient 1- 10 Each ng number represents a side of the cheek. ie left and right .
Remember 5ng is a fail and will lead to a blood test back at station.
After 8 hrs
Patient No- left cheek - right cheek
1* 15ng 9ng
2 * 6 6
3 4.5 2.7
4 * 5.1 3
5 0 2.1
6 0 0
7 * 6.3 4.5
8 1.5 2.4
9 1.2 2.1
10* 5.7 4.8
16 hours
1 * 6ng 6ng
2 2.4 2.4
3 2.7 1.41
4* 57 36 these number look like an error
5 0 0
6 0 0
7 2.4 3.6
8 0.9 0.6
9 0.9 1.5
10 2.1 2.4
http://www.orasure.com/docs/pdfs/pr...uana-Use-by-Oral-Fluid-and-Urine-Analysis.pdf *Numbers in the saliva test chart in the link are diluted numbers so remember to multiply by 3 to get the true figure of ng in saliva that would be detected by police.
Seeing as prosecution would be achieved using a blood test ive done some research on that too and here is a snap shot of my findings. Remember that 2ng in blood is the legal limit for Driving with drugs in the system in the UK and blood and saliva will not correspond.
I hope this is useful in helping you guys keep your licences , this is just for information purposes only and i havent double checked this info . im not a doctor or a lawyer and i take no responsibility for your choices re driving after using cannabis..
Blood test
Blood-based drug tests screen for a wide variety of illicit substances and have short detection windows for most, meaning they're typically used to establish very recent drug use. THC can be undetectable by blood test as soon as six hours after it enters your system — even though it's still there in trace amounts — and heavy smokers may test positive for up to 24 hours.
https://mic.com/articles/168783/how-long-does-marijuana-stay-in-your-system-how-thc-blood-tests-work-and-what-you-should-know#.NnFtwl4GK
Delta-9-THC concentration usually drops below 5 ng/mL within 3-4 hours post dose. Frequent users may have longer detection times. (2ng is the uk limit)
http://www.drugdetection.net/drug.htm
While patients seem to control their individual doses by varying how deeply they inhale, the average amount of THC in the blood dropped to 60% of the peak at 15 min after the last inhale and to 20% at 30 min. By the 2 hour mark, THC levels were below 5 ng/ml.
It took between 3 to 12 hours for THC to drop below detection limits (0.5 ng/ml) for the low-dose group and from 6 to 27 hours for the high-dose group of the study. However, the subjects of the study were not regular marijuana smokers, which explains why THC levels fell so quickly.
http://www.truthonpot.com/2013/03/28/how-long-does-marijuana-stay-in-your-system/
The highest THC blood concentrations — around 38 micrograms per liter — were seen just 10 minutes after smoking. But after half an hour, concentrations had decreased to about 10 micrograms per liter, on average, and by 1.4 hours, levels had decreased to about 4 micrograms per liter.
http://www.livescience.com/53578-marijuana-driving-thc-blood-test.html
Blood tests, unlike urinalysis, detect the presence illicit drugs, not inactive drug metabolites. In general, THC only remains detectable in the blood of cannabis consumers for a few hours (though low, residual levels may be detected in chronic smokers for up to 12-24+ hours if more sensitive technology is used). Because of this narrow detection window, blood tests are typically only administered in the workplace post-accident in order to estimate recent cannabis consumption. Therefore, most after-hours consumers have little to fear from a blood screen.
http://norml.org/marijuana/drug-testing/item/the-abcs-of-marijuana-and-drug-testing
it won’t stay in your blood stream long: it actually becomes undetectable by blood tests after no more than four to eight hours. In urine tests, it will be detectable for an even shorter time.
http://greenito.com/news/how-long-thc-detectable-blood/
That means a lab test would only find a trace amount of THC in the blood of occasional smokers after a few hours. "You could have smoked a good amount, just waited two hours, still be pretty intoxicated and yet pass the drug test [for driving]," says Haney. *** i have no idea what the limit is for the drug driving test he refer to here it maye not be the case wherever you are.
And if you eat the weed instead of smoking it, Haney says, your blood never carries that much THC. "With oral THC, it takes several hours for [blood THC] to peak, but it remains very low compared to the smoked route, even though they're very high. It's a hundredfold difference," she says.http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...to-make-a-solid-test-for-driving-while-stoned
So you gotta know your limits !
I try to avoid it as much as possible, but in very few situations I do have to drive after vaping. I don't think its hard though, haven't had much problems with it. I just need to concentrate a bit more than normal but other than that I'm fine.
However, I still prefer not to. That's why I try to avoid it as much as possible.
I'm not stoned 2 hours after consumption (or 4 or 6) being the quantities I typically consume in a sitting and my chronic usage because it's medical. The acute effects last from 5-15 minutes generally (maybe 30 minutes first time in the morning); to be safe try to wait minimum of 1-2 hours anyways.The cyclist in black with no lights coming down the outside, the child running into the road , the lost driving swerving across lanes etc are examples of reasons drivers need to be fully alert at all times. Tired drivers are a risk , drunk drivers are a risk and bad drivers are a risk ..why add stoned drivers to the mix just so people can enjoy herb and drive?
The cyclist in black with no lights coming down the outside, the child running into the road , the lost driving swerving across lanes etc are examples of reasons drivers need to be fully alert at all times. Tired drivers are a risk , drunk drivers are a risk and bad drivers are a risk ..why add stoned drivers to the mix just so people can enjoy herb and drive?