Divine Tribe atty's

[divinetribe]

Is the $25 FC special over?
Seems the link no longer works.

Wow y'all cool pioneers are a hard-working bunch!
I can't wait to get the V3 that I ordered.
There are things I'd like to try to even out temp.
Thermocouples at the ready.

I'm more interested in being able to reliably
control vaporizing temperature than getting big clouds.

I still have a REAL MAN's oil rig for those big clouds

Actually that's a big torch, the perspective don't do it justice.

BTW, instead of o-rings on all these ceramic atomizers, if you have
some (standard heat resistant) silicone tubing, I've found that
slices of the tubing make good seals between the top and the base.
They can be cut to different widths that stick out more or less
out of the grooves, allowing more mix 'n match on the tops.

The link is still up
Not exactly sure why it went down http://ineedhemp.com/product/divine...mic-donut-atomizer-fcombustion-discount-link/

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

I finally did it....open up a vimeo account to share my dab demo vids with you guys.

If anyone is still sitting on the fence or doubtful of what the large V3 donut is capable of, this is a conservative demo. You could still go hotter yet, with more watts, or load up more oil and cycle the button if you have more breath than I do.

1st vid a fresh load of black domina shatter on the cuboid, 2nd vid finishing the reclaim. There was hardly anything left after that

fern ! ! !

Wow y'all cool pioneers are a hard-working bunch!
I can't wait to get the V3 that I ordered.
There are things I'd like to try to even out temp.
Thermocouples at the ready.

Nice We could use some help in measuring real world donut temps. Since everyone seems to be using temps lower than what they would use on the 2.5 with the same TC mode / settings, I think we have to lower our TCR #'s if we want the screen to match actual donut temps.

FWIW, I put my IR thermometer over a clean V3 set to 330-360F and watched the thermometer screen fluctuate between 390-420F when the donut had reached temp. This may be somewhat accurate because the bore of the case on the V3 matched the inlet bore of the thermometer perfectly.

I tried the same thing on a clean v2.5 shallow bowl, set to 400F with 245 but the temps on the thermo only got to about 320F. That's not because I think TCR #245 is not accurate, but because of the much smaller bore of the cup on the 2.5, my thermometer was reading the (cool) temps of the outer housing as much as the hot donut

I'm more interested in being able to reliably
control vaporizing temperature than getting big clouds.

I still have a REAL MAN's oil rig for those big clouds

Actually that's a big torch, the perspective don't do it justice.

oh noes! a real man's oil rig?

more like a real caveman's oil rig

Of all the people that post on this thread, that seems the most uncharacteristic, coming from you. I thought you were "mr. precision" . . . . Mr. "i dispose of my 2nd hit reclaim"

You sound more like Tim "The Toolman" Taylor right there.

uugggh! ME IS MAN! Want MOAR power! ! ! F I R E ! ! ! uuugghh ooohh

I know that you know that when you heat up that big metal slug with fire (or e-nail) to plop dabs on it, and you draw "big clouds", there's nearly as much smoke coming into that rig as much as vape.

So does that mean DT donuts are only for girls? Or girly men? How bout the trans-gendered or androgynous?

I thought DT donuts were for boys and girls that like clean tasty vape. Maybe once you get your hands on your V3, broken in, settings found, hooked to that rig, you will reconsider whose big clouds are better?

I'm barely testing the limits of the V3. It can easily hold 200, 300mg or more of oil. Anything close to that, on my donut, and it's being wasted or degraded for the 2nd reclaim hit. I'd love to see someone with much healthier lung capacity than me put this thing to the test.

Those big "barnyard fire" clouds from the V3 can also be very smooth, tasty, and pure (medical grade) unlike those heated metal or glass slabs that most people are still dabbing on

BTW, instead of o-rings on all these ceramic atomizers, if you have some (standard heat resistant) silicone tubing, I've found that
slices of the tubing make good seals between the top and the base.
They can be cut to different widths that stick out more or less
out of the grooves, allowing more mix 'n match on the tops.

Yup I've been doing that for a while. Seems like the only feasible way to connect the V3 to any rig with readily available parts, but I'm already thinking of some more customized glass bulbs that might allow me to eliminate the bottom silicon strip, hopefully o-rings on the base straight to a 18mm female short tapered joint (if such a thing exists?)

If not that, then maybe we can convince Matt to make some alternate V3 bodies or mouthpieces that connect to glass joints with no adapter needed?

Question: The screws in the posts are just for lead retention, correct? They aren't crucial to the operation of the atty?

One would assume yes. The purpose of the post screws is just to make sure the wires on the donuts stay put and in good contact.

 

[fernand]

================ In the cave ====================

@Vape Donkey 650 congrats on the video clips and the clouds !

Comes now Fernand to plead the immortal soul of the Titanium nail. T'is true, my liege, that many a caveman wails on a red hot nail, to waste and burn. But if you observe connoisseurs like Bubbleman at the tiller, you may observe how 'tis done. The torch is set aside, and a cooling period is allowed, often 20 seconds. At this point the titanium has dropped to about 600 degrees F, and, thanks to its mass, quite uniformly so. The erl is added with a skilled swipe of the carb cap tip, the carb cap is inverted using a deft twirl about the index finger, and the cap carbs the nail - just as vapor bubbles through the water. The erl never burns because it's insulated at first from the hot titanium by a layer of sublimating material. Then the temperature drops into the 400-450 deg F range, where the remainder can safely boil off. Very little is left, so it's not suitable for the fractional type distillation we get with electronic temp control, but it's not as crude as it seems.

================ The 21st century ===================

Now to the V3 that I greeted at the mailbox today. Thanks, Matt, and congrats on a great package.

I forget which of present company, in a flash of insight, told it like it is. This is a completely different animal, more a good e-nail than a precise TC atomizer.

I don't find it as suitable for Temp Control as smaller diameter donut devices, if nothing else because the larger heater area, its insignificant mass, and the air blasting from below guarantee the presence of hot and cold spots, and that air flow really cools everything down. Unless the TC regulation can work a miracle, I THINK that that requires artificially high target temp settings.

It takes about 20 watts to glow my donut, so for safe operation I wouldn't set wattage above 16-18 watts or so, in case it escapes temp control. The donut probably can operate indefinitely at 16 watts like the small ones do at 12 watts. For me, that gets 'em hot soon enough. My settings tonight on an eVic mini VTC:

Mode Temp M1
TCR M1 = 125
Wattage 18 watts
Target temp 550 deg F

Clearly 550 deg F would be very hot if it actually maintained that temp, but it doesn't, as discussed below.

================ The lovely V3 construction ===================

The replaceable donut is shown here directly on the power posts, for testing. For re-assembly the leads of the donut go through the tits in the cup from the other side, the cup+ donut go onto the posts, the screws are tightened gently while the tits are held on the metal posts. The other 2 holes in the cup are the air inlets. Air hits below the hottest spots on the heater donut. The ceramic base then goes over the donut-cup assembly and the 3 screws fasten it to the metal foundation with its bottom 510 connector. NICE!

============= More TCR detail, for those who like detail ==========

A TC mod can only derive and control the average temp, it's impossible for a big donut to be equally hot all over.

If the TCR is set correctly we can get readings with a thermocouple that match the temp on the display. And an IR gun with the Emissivity set to 0.50 will also agree with the thermocouple. An IR gun must be calibrated to the heat source material, and for the white donuts an e value of 0.50 seems to work well.

But there will be areas on the donut that are colder and the likely result is that higher peak temp settings must be used to get a good vape. Either that or fake it by using a higher TCR. @Vape Donkey 650 looks like you getting some hellacious clouds at 340 degrees -- not.

Using a TCR around 245 is driving the donut way hotter than shown on the display, because the correct TCR, that makes the display and the actual temp agree, works out to around 125.

----------------------------- Calculating a TCR --------------------------------
Why 125 ? An example derivation taking my V3 from 25 deg C to 204 deg C (400 deg F) as measured with a thermocouple in vaseline in a ceramic cup pushed against one of the hotter spots, goes like this:

The initial room temp is 25 deg C, the top temp is 204 deg C, for a temp change of 204 - 25 = 179 deg C.

The initial resistance is 0.44 ohms, and at 204 deg C (400 deg F) the display shows 0.54 ohms,
for a resistance change of 0.54 - 0.44 = 0.1 ohms.

Notice how critical the resistance change is in the calculation. All we can do is trust the displayed R values, because it's too hard to directly measure resistance during operation.

Now we calculate the TCR as

( (Resistance change / initial resistance) / temperature change ) x 10^5

(0.1 / 0.44) / 179 = 0.00127 , then move the decimal point 5 over,
and we get 127 to set a TCR memory to. I made M1 = 125.

Check it, @OF ! Anybody else ? Try this value and see ?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I set the eVic mini that way, the displayed temp at Temp Protection agrees with most thermocouple readings, same as what I read from my IR gun (with its emissivity "e" set to 0.50), although readings are never perfectly stable.

I've repeated this enough over different temp ranges to believe that TCR somewhere between 115 and 130 is good enough. Certainly nothing like 245, which I think is high even for the V2s. We can do the arithmetic in reverse, but it's intuitively obvious that using a TCR of 245 is driving the donut way WAY hotter than what the mod's display shows.

If I try to put stuff in an alumina ceramic cup, even on the best hot spot, and pull air, the temp drops hard and fast. Putting erl directly on the donut works better, that's the intended use, but still TC regulation is nothing like on a V2 device in which the donut stays hotter as air is swooping in from above to fan the "steam".

For my purposes the generic Chinese ceramic donut devices with a 7.5 mm well diameter, where the air inlets sit 5 mm or so above the donut, work great, and a 6.8 mm diameter 4 mm high alumina cup keeps the erl in the pan, don't have to keep cleaning the non-rebuildable stove. The V2.5 and V2.7 work super, as we know, with erl applied directly to the donut, and a TCR around 185-240.

The V3 solves the cleaning problem, so it can be enjoyed as an e-nail with no worries. It's just a matter of how to best set the mod to give satisfying clouds without burning. Personally I'd rather set TCR so the display reflects peak temp on the donut, and work from there.

 

[clearlight]

Getting interesting results from net TCR calculators here and here using Fernand's measurements. The two I tried were in agreement of a ~1200 TCR to take a material from 0.45->0.55Ohm from a starting temp 25C to a target temp pf 204C.

Weird. But then I noticed isn't PPM 10^6? which would change Fernand's 125 to 1250? respectfully..

Now we calculate the TCR as

( (Resistance change / initial resistance) / temperature change ) x 10^5

(0.1 / 0.44) / 179 = 0.00127 , then move the decimal point 5 over,
and we get 127 to set a TCR memory to. I made M1 = 125.

note that those calculators are set to do +-TCR so you have to just ignore the bottom end of the results. This 1200 is wildly different from what others are getting experimentally, but the device is still very new. I've personally not tried over 600TCR on the 13mm donut.

Are we even certain the donuts have a linear TCR? Theoretically one may imagine that the functional TCR of a ceramic donut heater may be complicated by the fact that the heater is not a homogeneous material. It is instead a complex of conductive metal and insulating ceramic, so you end up with two different functions combined. First, the shapes of these two functions may be different, along with their placement on the graph. Second, the way the two functions combine may be complicated.

couple blurbs from wiki to add evidence that ceramic portion of the heater may not have a TCR that changes linearly with temperature:
"Most ceramics exhibit negative temperature dependence of resistance behaviour. This effect is governed by an Arrhenius equation over a wide range of temperatures" FYI, Arrhenius equations graph out like "At first, the value increases exponentially, then it levels off as it approaches a limit."

again respectfully. i am not a scientist, only a hobby mathematician. thanks to fernand for all your great work!

 

[Steven]

@Vape Donkey 650 nice videos but not really impressed. Especially after all your bragging and gloating on massive vapor clouds. I literally get twice as much vapor with the same amount of wax. I use tcr 245, 22w, and 420F. Because of the air draw, the mod doesn't really hit temp protection but floats around 390-400. I use a hydratube and I regulate my draw speed, much slower than what u did in the Video. That's how newbies hit my v3/hydratube until I tell them to slow it down and they r rewarded with massive vapor. Whenever I or any other friends hit my v3, the hydratube is still white walled with vapor and its our breath that gives out. Vapor seems to be very wispy by the time you finished your hit. My friends usually take 2 hits on ur same load and blow out 2 clouds twice as abundant. And this vapor Is smooth and flavorful (not the second hit). I get perplexed complements all the time.

I still love tc on the v3. @fernand says he doesn't want to go over 20w because that's when the donut gets red. However I use 10.5w for cleaning in the v2.5 because that got the donut red but I used 12.5w for vaping. I also been using 22w in tc mode on the v3, going through 5 grams or so already with no issues. Does the v3 go out if tc for you? Never seems to be a problem for me. Thanx for your efforts for the tcr though. Not trying to argue, just giving info

 

[BLACKENEDPLAGUE]

Could someone do a video on the rebuilding aspect?

 

[fernand]

@clearlight You raise damned good points. IMHO this is a fascinating thread. Yes, of course it's non-linear. With @OF and others we are all trying a 2 pass. The calculation gets you a starting value. By setting the mod to that TCR we can try it, and probably touch it up.

If we test it on the same temp range, we're expecting the display to agree with our temp measurements And since it does, setting the TCR 10 times higher makes no sense.

========== the verbose detail ===================

If you test on a wider range you'll see it doesn't exactly follow. Not surprising, as you point it it couldn't possibly be linear.

And if we want to get into it, what region of the donut is the mod measuring? If it's an average, it's hard for a thermocouple or an IR gun, or a mercury thermometer, to read the same "average". That's why I was saying we're reading something like "peak" temperature. While the mod can only see something like an average temp. But for the display maybe they compensate?

Besides, what Joyetech calls a 0-999 TCR is their own method for telling the firmware how steep to expect the rise in R to be. They could have expressed it as a number from 00 to 99 or a letter from A to Z, and we'd have to scale our calculation result accordingly.

Temperature is the only thing we can actually measure. And even there we have a lot of slop. As @Vape Donkey 650 noted, we see a lot of fluctuation. Move the thermocouple, point the IR gun a little differently, and it changes. On top of that the mod is oscillating, trying to regulate. This isn't anything like reading a melting point to 4 digits with a thermometer in an oil bath.

We could conceivably wire things up so we could measure current & voltage and get closer to measuring resistance. We could even measure resistance of the donut outside the box by heating it with an external something that could provide a constant temp. But that'd be beyond getting wonky, since a) what the mod displays isn't exact anyway and b) what we're doing seems close enough to be usable.

With a small donut in a narrow well, with air swooping in from above it makes sense that temp would be more stable. But the way I read the V3 situation we want to keep the hot spots from decomposing the erl, if we can read and control that, we're doing OK.

@Steven good points. Personally I can believe Matt, that running a donut "in the red" for any significant time is going to cause failure. Yes, I've had it jump out of TC. If the wattage is over 20 watts then all the erl disappears in a flash and we're left with a donut that's glowing. If we keep pulsing to bypass the 10 second limit I'd expect it to fail. Maybe the Power mode wattage can be set below 20 to cover that case, and the TC mode wattage limit set higher as you're doing? But I'm happy enough with the warm-up time when using TC wattage around 16-18.

I think we have different requirements. Not surprising, and not a problem. The way I see it, vapor produced by boiling it off at around the boiling point of THC and other actives wouldn't even be visible but for a specific interaction with the air flow. The air does chase more vapor off the heater. But also I think that opaque clouds develop when air hits the wispy vapor because that causes micro-droplets to form from condensation. Like fog. It doesn't mean more THC. And at higher temps some portion will be more like smoke, but even that isn't a simple thing. I mean why is even smoke opaque? It's not all soot.

We can definitely feel cann actives from a transparent vapor. When we first encountered vaporizing many were surprised at this. Some were disappointed and went back to mo' manly blunts Personally I see massive clouds as mostly a sort of placebo. It's cool. I like vaping e-liquid even with no nicotine, because of the clouds.

 

[clearlight]

Could someone do a video on the rebuilding aspect?

notice the one he's cleaning in the video has a broken out ohm symbol. those deals pop right out if you twist too hard in there with a rag. be careful unless more airflow is what you're after.

 

[BLACKENEDPLAGUE]

Looks like a piece of cake, and avoiding blowing out the ohm symbol would be to just let it soak in your desired cleaner

 

[OF]

Mode Temp M1
TCR M1 = 125
Wattage 18 watts
Target temp 550 deg F

Clearly 550 deg F would be very hot if it actually maintained that temp, but it doesn't, as discussed below.

A TC mod can only derive and control the average temp, it's impossible for a big donut to be equally hot all over.

If the TCR is set correctly we can get readings with a thermocouple that match the temp on the display. And an IR gun with the Emissivity set to 0.50 will also agree with the thermocouple. An IR gun must be calibrated to the heat source material, and for the white donuts an e value of 0.50 seems to work well.

But there will be areas on the donut that are colder and the likely result is that higher peak temp settings must be used to get a good vape. Either that or fake it by using a higher TCR. @Vape Donkey 650 looks like you getting some hellacious clouds at 340 degrees -- not.

While I agree with you on power levels, my current setting (pun intended) is 18W as well (worked up from 16), I'm getting expected results (very similar to V2.5) using the same 245 value calling for 370F (a bit less than the 390 I run the smaller units at, but I'm enjoying, I think, better flavor at the same vapor volume.

I agree 125 should give the same sort of results as 245 (twice the value, give or take) if you dial up 550F. That is setting the target temperature to a level we're obviously not reaching. A bit like using the kM scale on your car's speedometer against MPH?

Hopefully more folks will log in, but I'm getting what I think is good (and similar) performance at 245 and 390F (give or take) and a power limit of 18 Watts. It will go over temperature eventually at that power, same as 12 Watts can drive some V2.5s too hard eventually, but with those settings I reach temperature limit as expected (within the ten second limit for a warm unit without too large a load. For now, that's my advice.

Weird. But then I noticed isn't PPM 10^6? which would change Fernand's 125 to 1250? respectfully..

Are we even certain the donuts have a linear TCR? Theoretically one may imagine that the functional TCR of a ceramic donut heater may be complicated by the fact that the heater is not a homogeneous material.

Yes, indeed, TCR values are traditionally expressed in PPM. 10^-6. However, these mods, probably to save a digit of display use an 'oddball' 10^-5 instead. We've discussed this before. 245 as a setting represents 2450 PPM as a 'real world' value. Like the ones you'd look up on the web.

In broad terms most metals have a positive TC (resistance goes up with temperature) of something like 1/4 or 1/3 of a % per degree C. Doing conversions the 245 setting represents 1/4% per degree C. We want something like 180C rise? That means about a 45% total rise in resistance? Starting at .44 Ohms we should read (.44 X 1.45) about .64 which is what I recall seeing (I don't have the unit handy)

What are others seeing? TIA.

While the Thermodynamics of the doughnut might be different (I don't believe so) TCR for the metal is most definitely linear. It's expressed in PPM per degree C. Same change for 100 to 200 as for 50 to 150. Or likely 200 to 300 if we dare go that high. Linear over wide temperature ranges, or it wouldn't be as useful as it is. Look it up? They give tables, not graphs.

Ceramics can have very large changes in conductivity with temperature, at least some can. An insulator that's just fine cold can breakdown if overheated. We're not there, conduction by the ceramic is not a significant factor here. We're sensing, and controlling, the average metal temperature change. I was, at first, concerned the geometry might be much different (heater metal that doesn't get as hot, say where the leads attach, can be a 'spoiler' here). Fortunately it seems that's not the case?

@clearlight You raise damned good points. IMHO this is a fascinating thread. Yes, of course it's non-linear.

'Of course it's not linear'? On what do you base this? While we seem to be talking different scales here the slope of the graph is a straight line isn't it? That's what linear means. A straight line? A classic linear equation in one variable. That is a y=aX+b deal with X being the TCR value, a the delta (change) and b being offset? Since we're talking temperature change here b=0 and we tend to ignore it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_equation.

Or so they taught in school when I went there so many years ago.

Those that haven't ordered V3 are definitely missing out. It comes with spare doughnuts, spare screws (suckers are small and easy to use) which fit both the body and contacts (all 5 are the same......good move!), even a bitty screwdriver. My only complaint so far is the WTA doesn't fit anymore. Hopefully that will be fixed soon, I tried mine through my little bubbler (very ugly rig up, trust me) the results were most encouraging. I know Matt and the DC guys are mighty busy, but I hope they get to that soon.

Regards to all.

OF

 

[tharealmclovin]

Do the 19mm hydra tubes still work with the V3? I was gonna grab one off dhgate.

 

[fernand]

@OF, I love you unconditionally, but we both know that the TCR of a section of wire is only linear under ideal conditions. Less predictable/linear is the overall behavior of a V3 on a TC mod as a whole, as that's involving hundreds of additional factors, including the donut surface and the firmware in the mod.

With your 245 TCR setting, and 370 target temp, what temp range are you measuring at the donut?

Unless your donut is entirely different from mine, I respectfully doubt it's 370 degrees. To each his own, but I don't see the point of using a TCR value that makes the display have no relation to actual temperature.

=========== Memoirs ================

My settings tonight, I was pleasantly surprised:
Wattage for TC mode: 17.0 watts
TCR M1 = 120
Target temp: 380 deg F
Temp measured at donut 340-390 deg F

For a Target temp of 550 deg F
Temp measured at donut 520-560 deg F

When would anyone use a higher temp setting than e.g. 450?
If your air flow quickly cools the donut/oil.

============= Misc folklore ============

Make sure you lock your resistance in, and only when it's cold.
How?

• 3 power clicks to enter menu, long left click twice to reach resistance line,
• right click to lock/unlock R.

I believe the screw terminals at the posts will be causing problems. Happened to me tonight: loose connection causing wrong readings and very crazy (high!) actual temps.

One solution is to remove the donut, cut two ~ 1/4 " lengths of e.g. 24 gauge stranded wire, strip insulation and stuff a bundle into each post hole. Then straighten the donut leads gently and re-reinsert them into the post holes amidst the bundle wires, then tighten screws, not too hard. This will help maintain contact and prevent the screws crushing/breaking the donut lead.

When reassembling take note of where the posts and the hottest spots (between them) will fall. On mine I line up the 3 of "V3" in the middle of a hot area where it's glowed brightest in wattage mode, so I know where to put dabs for high and for low heat.

@tharealmclovin, no, unfortunately, seems that nothing but ... kludges have been proposed so far.

 

[Steven]

Do the 19mm hydra tubes still work with the V3? I was gonna grab one off dhgate.

Yes the hydratube dt donut will always be my go to combo. No matter the situation I will make it work and already have. U can attach the v3 to 19mm Hydratubes with either some silicon tubing on the orings or the mouthpiece, ur pick. Depending on the thickness of your tubing, you may need to switch to the v2.5 orings or remove them altogether if the tubing is too thick. Most preferably, get some thin silicon tubing to cover the sharp edges of the ceramic housing right below the orings. I say this because I broke my hydratube because I shoved the v3 too hard into the Hydratube and it grinded against that part and broke the Hydratube.

I use these because my friend has a bunch of these I can grab from him. This time I used the thinner bottom portion part of the mouthpiece and cut 2 bands. 1 to go over the sharp edge, the other over the orings. Fits perfectly to my hydratubes

sorry too lazy to clean the glass for now. Actually just got another one on the way from dhgate to replace the one I broke

Edit: since I like to regulate my draw instead of add more heat, I just push the silicon band down lower and cover half of the ohm and v3 logo. Too lazy to post pics. U get the idea

 

[fernand]

OK, ok, Sorrreeee! I didn't say "fugly", just ... kludges!

Where there's a will, there's a way. I guess I don't have fat enough tubing "in stock", and my watertool is a female that so far resists. Duct tape? I'm sure each of us will find something just right ...

 

[PPN]

With my unit I forgotten to change the power limit I used for the"Project" (a dry herb atty using TC), so I used mine for an half gram at 50w and I didn't noticed the donut was turning red although my hits are rather short (5-6s). My settings are TCR 245 and t° around 320°F, resistance is 0.45

 

[fernand]

@PPN if you use TC mode on a mod like the eVic, and it stays in TC mode, the 50w only sets the power applied until temp is reached, and then it backs off, so no way it would glow red.

With a TCR of 245 and a temp setting of 320 your actual temp on the donut was close to 600 deg F. I just tried it with TCR = 220 and it was ~ 550. But the massive air flow coming under the donut was cooling it massively so in the end that wasn't outrageous. No harm done.

 

[Artesia]

So, I believe I've been loading my 2.7 wrong for a while...I've been putting my 'bb' load in the center of the coil, and vaping as usual. However, it seems I get a lot less use out per product than with a typical nail. I'm worried that the majority of my concentrate is getting built up underneath the coil, as I've noticed there's a big of a gap between the coil and the 'floor' of the tank.

Using a tool, i'm able to carefully scrape some claim up - some is an understatement. What's the best way to get this back, and properly load the device?

 

[Bad Ocelot]

center of the coil is pretty standard for that model, certainly how I do it, ha. One way to vape the under-the-donut stuff is to tilt the mod as you apply power so that it liquifies & pools up on in one area. You can also turn the mod upside down, apply power & drip it out. Or you can soak the 2.7 base upside down in ISO (iso level should only be up to the floor of the base) & evap for reclaim. I do the latter. Though I use my 2.7 more like a vape pen than as a one hitter. One bb in the center tends to get me 5-10 wispy but very flavorful hits, after that it starts to taste a little reclaimy so I'll just reload. After a little bit it gets pretty goopy in there so I'll do the upside down soak (20min to a couple of hours), let dry overnight, then do a burn off (usually around 12.5-13.5 watts in power mode) the following day and it's practically good as new. Seems like kind of a hassle but i've got half a dozen or so 2.5 & 2.7 bases laying around so there's always a couple clean ones at least.

Regarding the 3.0, has anyone been using it similar to the way I described above? i.e. taking a handful of smaller hits vs clearing it in 1-2? Don't get me wrong, I can get down with the enail-esque functionality as well, but for most weekdays that'll probably be overkill for my purposes, ha. I typically only dab on the weekends. And sometimes Wednesdays if it's a long week. And late Thursday nights because that's practically weekend anyway... you get the idea

I'm loving the high level of nerdery in this thread btw. I certainly follow the more technical posts but you guys have more knowledge about the relevant electrophysics than I, so I usually just lurk on those. However, as I understand the mod is reading the resistance & giving the calculated temp for the resistance wire, not the entire donut, correct? Obviously their temps would be somewhat similar, but they obviously have different thermal properties so I wouldn't expect the mod to correctly read the temp of the ceramic donut based on the TCR value for the wire. While it'd be cool to know the temp I'm actually vaping at, I'm far more concerned with having tasty hits that aren't harsh. Hence I'm fine with the screen reading 245F on my Tesla Nano in Ni mode even though it's clearly hotter in there.

 

[Artesia]

center of the coil is pretty standard for that model, certainly how I do it, ha. One way to vape the under-the-donut stuff is to tilt the mod as you apply power so that it liquifies & pools up on in one area. You can also turn the mod upside down, apply power & drip it out. Or you can soak the 2.7 base upside down in ISO (iso level should only be up to the floor of the base) & evap for reclaim. I do the latter. Though I use my 2.7 more like a vape pen than as a one hitter. One bb in the center tends to get me 5-10 wispy but very flavorful hits, after that it starts to taste a little reclaimy so I'll just reload. After a little bit it gets pretty goopy in there so I'll do the upside down soak (20min to a couple of hours), let dry overnight, then do a burn off (usually around 12.5-13.5 watts in power mode) the following day and it's practically good as new. Seems like kind of a hassle but i've got half a dozen or so 2.5 & 2.7 bases laying around so there's always a couple clean ones at least.

Regarding the 3.0, has anyone been using it similar to the way I described above? i.e. taking a handful of smaller hits vs clearing it in 1-2? Don't get me wrong, I can get down with the enail-esque functionality as well, but for most weekdays that'll probably be overkill for my purposes, ha. I typically only dab on the weekends. And sometimes Wednesdays if it's a long week. And late Thursday nights because that's practically weekend anyway... you get the idea

I'm loving the high level of nerdery in this thread btw. I certainly follow the more technical posts but you guys have more knowledge about the relevant electrophysics than I, so I usually just lurk on those. However, as I understand the mod is reading the resistance & giving the calculated temp for the resistance wire, not the entire donut, correct? Obviously their temps would be somewhat similar, but they obviously have different thermal properties so I wouldn't expect the mod to correctly read the temp of the ceramic donut based on the TCR value for the wire. While it'd be cool to know the temp I'm actually vaping at, I'm far more concerned with having tasty hits that aren't harsh. Hence I'm fine with the screen reading 245F on my Tesla Nano in Ni mode even though it's clearly hotter in there.

With all these talks of curves and proper temp per resistance, I really want someone to make a CSV for the DNA75/DNA200 chips for these guys. I think that'd be perfection.

 

[whatavape]

In broad terms most metals have a positive TC (resistance goes up with temperature) of something like 1/4 or 1/3 of a % per degree C. Doing conversions the 245 setting represents 1/4% per degree C. We want something like 180C rise? That means about a 45% total rise in resistance? Starting at .44 Ohms we should read (.44 X 1.45) about .64 which is what I recall seeing (I don't have the unit handy)

What are others seeing? TIA.

I've been aiming for .63 ohms, which gives me roughly 360F by my calculations, using the TRC for Alumina (closest guess). I'd imagine this is just a general ballpark since there's really a metal coil inside of this alumina of unknown percent (I assume the best, 99.6% alumina). Now, I'm not using a TC mod, just using VW. At 18.6W (my preference so far for the v3), it only takes a few seconds to heat up and approach .63 ohms, and the hits are always flavorful, just not always followed by massive clouds. Since I'm aiming on the lower end of the temp range that is exactly what should be expected, and I'm reading 340-390F on the hot/cold spots near this point.

 

[OF]

@OF, I love you unconditionally, but we both know that the TCR of a section of wire is only linear under ideal conditions.

Thanks, but I'm spoken for.......

Good that at least one of knows that I guess. For sure it's not two. That is I believe it's linear or I would not have said so? Most metals are, which is why there's tables not graphs?

If it were not linear how do you suggest the mod knows this? How does it deal with it? There are, of course, fixed resistances involved between the element and sense leads but that simply changes the TCR value as long as that factor is small and constant.

"An intuitive approach to temperature dependence leads one to expect a fractional change in resistance which is proportional to the temperature change"

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/restmp.html

It says "proportional" which means linear?

OF

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

aright you guys... I'm back, with empirical data !

What are others seeing? TIA.
Regards to all.

OF

I've been aiming for .63 ohms, which gives me roughly 360F by my calculations

That is about spot on to what I've been aiming for. I'm breaking in 9 different V3 units right now with a few more waiting their turn, with base Ω ranging from 0.42 to 0.6, but really around 0.44, 0.45 mostly. I think the 0.6Ω needs the wire trimmed or tightened.

For the temps and kind of hits I'm favoring, (relatively low-temp, tasty) I'm observing resistance rise about 0.16Ω, but I can get nice usable hits with a Ω rise ranging from 0.14-0.18 over cold.

Once my donuts are at temp and protection, my wattage flutters between 15-22w, spending alot of time around the middle at 17w alot.

Now as for the TCR....

I know for certain using # 245 is showing us temps much lower than either the average temps, or hot or cool spots. If we know 245 to be accurate on the 2.5, and I like temps ranging from 380-420 with that figure, why would I only be calling for temps mostly around 310-360F with the larger donut now?

I haven't tried to work out the math yet (I think I have all the variables in place to try?) but I did make good use of the one tool I do have: infrared thermometer. I can't even configure it, but the bore size matches the V3 base perfect, so if I cover the thermometer opening perfectly with the V3 and point it straight, it gives very steady readings.

With 245 TCR, at 320, 330F I would be seeing around 390-420F readings flutter on my thermo, on an empty, slightly dirty donut. (no airflow of course) It could get pretty steady once it had reached protection.

So, with a lot of trial and error, on a different clean donut, loading TCR values going lower in increments of 5 and 10, I have found the figure of !TCR 190! to mostly make my screen temps and my thermometer temps agree. Observed temps on the IR do tend to overshoot a little once reaching protection, then can level off rather nicely. I would imagine that during real-world use, the airflow provided by the user will lower temps even further and can minimize the overshoot.

So I know my tool of measurement is not perfect, since I can't set 'emissivity' and I'm looking at a broad picture of the donut, not the hot and cool spots (kind of an average, thats good?) so I would love to see what you guys with thermocouples and potentially better IR thermometers will observe.



So then... I put this data to use, loaded up TCR 190 on a cuboid, with a different, broken-in V3 atty, 32w, starting at 380F (which would be on the lower end for me on the v2.5 with TCR 245) and I got a nice Ω rise of 0.16 and great, tasty, clouds that were smooth! Pretty much exactly what I was getting around 330-340F with TCR 245.

As many of us know, all this vape nerdishness is highly hypothetical and somewhat imprecise, given my tools, but it's nice to be able to call up temps on the mod that I used to use on the v2.5, and have a good adjustment range of +/- 20 or 30F to call up light, flavorful vape and thicker, hotter vape to finish the load.

Not finished yet.....

I loaded up TCR 190 in my eleaf pico, then, after obtaining these figures testing with a VTC mini and a cuboid. On my first dirty donut that I now cleaned and re-installed with the pico, my IR thermo saw temps spiking a good 30-40F over the temp called for on the screen (hitting protection) before it tapered off to actually being 10F or so under the intended temp

Went back to TCR 245 with the pico, also tried lower watts from 20, 22, 25w, and the temps on my IR would be 60, 80, 100F higher than what the mod says And it would also peak to around 430F sometimes before settling anyhere from 370-390 when asking the mod to reach 330F

So this leads me to believe the TC on an eleaf pico is not nearly as swift and accurate as the current lineup of joyetech TC mods. This poor showing could also be partially explained by my test methods not accurately representing real-world usage conditions, but this degree of temp spiking upon reaching protection was not observed at all on 2 different joyetech mods.

I had previously suspected this from using the pico for a while with the v2.5 when I had used evic's and cubes already for a long time. I liked my joyetech's TC'd @ 25w with the v2.5, but when I did 25w in TC modes on the pico, the initial overshoot would be noticeable almost to the point of charring clean donuts, so I backed down and settled on 20w with the pico to get good clouds, quick warm ups, but also not burn oil or char the donut easily.

I don't like how the picos are also doing this with the V3 apparently I'm playing around with TCR figures between 145-160 now for the pico, but, cant decide whether I want to try and minimize the overshoot / peak temp or get a more accurate post-protection temp, or how different TCR #'s in this range will actually work during real usage? More testing is needed

I'd like to see what your guys results and observations with different brands and models of TC mods are as well.

And finally... regarding TCR rates for donuts being straight or curved, IDK really, but from what I observed over alot of v2.5 bases, the Ω rise to achieve the same effects tended to be alot more on a high Ω base as opposed to a low Ω base. The high ones like 0.82 needed at least 0.33-0.36 rise to make the vape I liked. The low ones, like 0.68Ω, could rise as little as 0.29-0.32 to make vape that I like. I even got a couple flukishly low Ω bases like 0.55, 0.60Ω, that would only need to rise 0.15-0.20 to make my warmth with TCR 245!

So maybe if the rate is linear, maybe the slope of the line is different for different base Ω?

And maybe the rates are not perfectley linear, because of the heat transfer between metal to ceramic? IDK really but I'm just reading what all you guys are saying and trying to make sense

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

Thanks for reading my essays

@Vape Donkey 650 nice videos but not really impressed. Especially after all your bragging and gloating on massive vapor clouds. I literally get twice as much vapor with the same amount of wax. I use tcr 245, 22w, and 420F. Because of the air draw, the mod doesn't really hit temp protection but floats around 390-400. I use a hydratube and I regulate my draw speed, much slower than what u did in the Video. That's how newbies hit my v3/hydratube until I tell them to slow it down and they r rewarded with massive vapor. Whenever I or any other friends hit my v3, the hydratube is still white walled with vapor and its our breath that gives out. Vapor seems to be very wispy by the time you finished your hit. My friends usually take 2 hits on ur same load and blow out 2 clouds twice as abundant. And this vapor Is smooth and flavorful (not the second hit). I get perplexed complements all the time.

Glad you enjoyed my video. I'll repeat, it's a conservative demo. I called for 330F on TCR 245 for that vid, much lower than what you're using. Not sure how much you normally load or if you can accurately see what I put in mine, but I'd estimate a meager 25-30mg at most for this vid; about what I usually put in a v2.5.

There's alot of factors that affect what kind of cloud you blow out.

• How long you hold it in (about 3-4 sec in this vid, more than i usually do, IDK why I did here. To make sure I aimed my exhale cloud in front of the camera?)
• whether you use the mouthpiece, dry, or through a bubbler or rig,
• what kind of rig it is (perc action, size, draw resistance)
• the water level
• the wattage level on the mod
• temp target / TC settings
• whether the locked-in base resistance of the coil is accurate
• how much oil is loaded on the donut and its' quality / potency
• how well the oil is pre-melted (needed the most for crumbles / honeycombs)
• how much the user draws breath / modulates their draw

Might be other factors, but that's all I can think of now. With what I know from you, I'd say the temp target is the biggest factor in the size of clouds you're catching. If you're setting 420F, even if only reaching 400F with your lower watts, the actual temps on the hot spot of your donut must be at least 550, maybe 600F with your slow-draw method

When first trying my V3s, I ranged from 350 to 400 and decided the taste was pretty icky at those ranges before settling lower. I'm only back at setting 380, 400F with my new TCR of 190 now.

I think we have different requirements. Not surprising, and not a problem. The way I see it, vapor produced by boiling it off at around the boiling point of THC and other actives wouldn't even be visible but for a specific interaction with the air flow. The air does chase more vapor off the heater. But also I think that opaque clouds develop when air hits the wispy vapor because that causes micro-droplets to form from condensation. Like fog. It doesn't mean more THC. And at higher temps some portion will be more like smoke, but even that isn't a simple thing. I mean why is even smoke opaque? It's not all soot.

We can definitely feel cann actives from a transparent vapor. When we first encountered vaporizing many were surprised at this. Some were disappointed and went back to mo' manly blunts Personally I see massive clouds as mostly a sort of placebo. It's cool. I like vaping e-liquid even with no nicotine, because of the clouds.

Yes....what he said.

So, regarding the cloud size....at 420F with TCR 245 on your new big donut, I think you're actually smoking, to a certain extent, bro. Like the 600F hot e-nails. That's gonna make a big difference in how light and wispy or dark and thick the clouds appear. There could surely be other differences between our mods (are you using the old presa or the new evic basic?) and your lower wattages, and the draw methods. But if that's how you like using your new donut, that's fine. Like fern implied, this new donut is proving to be at least as adjustable to different users' preferences as the old one.

Also...I tried your low-speed "Steven draw" method on a fresh load of the same oil on the same donut and mod and rig, same settings, to have all the factors the same. With the slow draw, my mod was only putting out about 12-15w at temp, instead of 17-20w with my normal draw.

Same 10 second hit, it put out a thicker cloud, but it was much smaller. Also felt hotter and not as tasty.

In my vid, it may look like I'm drawing hard, but I'm using a fairly moderate, casual draw. The water level is middle-low and the D-020-D9 has a very low draw restriction. At the same TC mod settings, with the temperature difference of the vape cloud between slow or fast draw, we're really getting mostly the same thing, just with more or less air to go with it?

I'll play around with it some more but I think I like my casual draw better. Also, since you're using hydratubes, while I'm using more traditional style rigs, with glass bulbs, elbows and silicon tubes attached, the best draw technique can perhaps be quite different between the different types?

That DHgate hydratube recycler I got a while back I don't use with my DT donuts; I like it more for flowers. If you can take some vids of your hydratube action on your big donut with your phone or camera and can post em up for eveyone to compare, that would be great. I'll have more vids on the way

I also been using 22w in tc mode on the v3, going through 5 grams or so already with no issues. Does the v3 go out if tc for you? Never seems to be a problem for me. Thanx for your efforts for the tcr though. Not trying to argue, just giving info

5 grams, Steven power-dabber! Who else posting on this thread wants to challenge Steven for biggest oil eater? @mrbonsai420? But he only does a fraction of his dabbing on DT donuts?

I've only had one new V3 donut go out of TC mode on me. This one had a high base Ω like 0.65 and a loose wire in the post. When touched, the Ω went up to 0.80, and it soon dropped out of TC when fired.

Only had to take off the case, tighten the wire leads inside the post, the Ω dropped to like 0.62, and TC's just fine again. If I compared to my other large donuts, I bet this high Ω one has a longer wire that can be trimmed, but it does sit flat at the bottom of the cup when mounted.

Now, I'm not using a TC mod, just using VW. At 18.6W (my preference so far for the v3), it only takes a few seconds to heat up and approach .63 ohms, and the hits are always flavorful, just not always followed by massive clouds. Since I'm aiming on the lower end of the temp range that is exactly what should be expected, and I'm reading 340-390F on the hot/cold spots near this point.

I would still recommend for you to get a new TC mod to use with the new V3, but I think it is now apparent, that with the larger donut and the much slower ramp-up time to get warm, it is now feasible to get good results from the DT donut in VW mode without having to be a button-pressing wizard. If your mod has a quick button action, watts set low enough, user knowing what they're doing, I can see your V3 working fine in VW.

Also, great to see lots of new users to the thread posting up and sharing their info and experiences with the new DT donut!

 

[ws420]

thanks for your sharing

 

[tharealmclovin]

So what's up with the colored v3's on the site? When will those be available? And will black be available?