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Gunky

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I must say it is truly stunning to me. If clearly intelligent people can't manage to ignore a newsgroup troll, how could we as a nation possibly fight organized disinformation from professional liars and politically expedient criminal deceivers at the very pinnacle of our government.

We are good and truly fucked. No need to chase me away, I am outta here. Again.
A troll? At least two. Probably quite a few. The latest trick is to pare down the number of covid deaths: if there was a "co-morbidity" well then the death doesn't count. So if your relative has high blood pressure or asthma or whatever, their death doesn't count as covid, even if covid precipitated their death. It's more bullshit from people who are trying to redefine Trump failure as success. Endlessly moving the goal posts. You are right. Our country is in terrible shape. Not so much because of Trump - he'll eventually fade from the scene. But all these people willing to make any and every excuse for their cult leader no matter how bizarre his utterances are - we're gonna be stuck with this group, their conformism, lack of respect for data and truth, bigotry, etc for a long time.
 

ClearBlueLou

unbearably light in the being....
To be fair, most covid trolling happens elsewhere: the most flagrant example I know of is/was the push to differentiate pneumonia deaths from covid deaths...when pneumonia is one the chief ways covid has for killing. “X had covid but died of pneumonia” strikes me very much as an effort artificially suppress covid deaths - and effort officially supported by my backward state.
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
If clearly intelligent people can't manage to ignore a newsgroup troll, how could we as a nation possibly fight organized disinformation from professional liars and politically expedient criminal deceivers at the very pinnacle of our government.

I'm not sure that ignoring disinformation is a winning strategy for the human race going forward. In fact, I'm pretty certain it is not. While I agree that getting into multi-page back and forths over nonsense isn't useful, I am going to provide another perspective from time to time if I see something that is either misleading or plain wrong. I'll try and keep it to one post.

A lot of this goes back to our educational system. That's where we need to install an intellectual "immune system" against bullshit. Namely, by teaching Science. Not just memorizing the periodic table. But the Scientific Method. That's still the best way to separate what is true from what is bullshit that conforms to your existing biases. I'd start the class with this Feynman quote: “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.”
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
COVID-19 Can Wreck Your Heart, Even if You Haven’t Had Any Symptoms

Beyond its scientific backing, the notion that a COVID-19 patient might wind up with long-term lung scarring or breathing issues has the ring of truth. After all, we hear the stories, right? The virus can leave survivors explaining how they struggled to breathe, or how it can feel, in the words of actress Alyssa Milano, “like an elephant is sitting on my chest.”

We’ve also known for a while that some COVID-19 patients’ hearts are taking a beating, too—but over the past few weeks, the evidence has strengthened that cardiac damage can happen even among people who have never displayed symptoms of coronavirus infection. And these frightening findings help explain why college and professional sports leagues are proceeding with special caution as they make decisions about whether or not to play.
 
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cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
But but but... Herd immunity. If we all get it we can all have permanent heart and lung damage, together like a nation. What could be better?
I'm not sure that ignoring disinformation is a winning strategy
Yep, that has always been the argument for feeding trolls. Doesn't change dick, but it's the argument. Kind of like feeding stray cats. Just don't complain when you have lots of stray cats.
 
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florduh

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But but but... Herd immunity. If we all get it we can all have permanent heart and lung damage, together like a nation. What could be better?

I just read somewhere that about half of American adults have hypertension. Like 100 million Americans are either diabetic or pre-diabetic. That's the problem with this idea that "Americans without risk factors can just go about their daily lives like they did in the Before Times". It makes sense until you think about it for more than 3 seconds. If you subtract every American who has high blood pressure, blood glucose issues, heart disease, or are fat, or old, or lives with someone who is, you're left with about 7 vegan yoga instructors in Boulder. That's about it.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
A troll? At least two. Probably quite a few. The latest trick is to pare down the number of covid deaths: if there was a "co-morbidity" well then the death doesn't count. So if your relative has high blood pressure or asthma or whatever, their death doesn't count as covid, even if covid precipitated their death. It's more bullshit from people who are trying to redefine Trump failure as success. Endlessly moving the goal posts. You are right. Our country is in terrible shape. Not so much because of Trump - he'll eventually fade from the scene. But all these people willing to make any and every excuse for their cult leader no matter how bizarre his utterances are - we're gonna be stuck with this group, their conformism, lack of respect for data and truth, bigotry, etc for a long time.
Conformism? One only has to look at this thread to know which "cult" requires conformity. (How's your mask?) As to the goalposts, see "flatten the curve".

There are some good articles out there on the coding of Covid deaths. When we look at how to prepare for the next pandemic, we should probably look at getting some better uniformity on death certificates. There are a ton of guidelines and rules, but, states seem to vary in reporting. As I've said before, George Floyd is a Covid death under the rules. There are also some complaints over funding differences if Covid is on the death certificate that gives a benefit to the reporting party if Covid is listed. While the issue(s) should not be that big of a deal on the overall numbers, recognizing the problem is not a trick to redefine failure as success. (Especially when we look at the success/failure at the state leadership level in regards to the pandemic.)

But then, we get back to...what? Lockdown again? In the UK they're saying 40% of the deaths from Covid are actually from their lockdown.
Coronavirus: For every three COVID-19 deaths, lockdown may have caused another two

The national lockdown may have indirectly caused 16,000 excess deaths in two months, according to government analysts.

The new report says a reluctance to attend A&E and difficulties accessing medical assistance likely meant that for every three deaths from coronavirus itself, a further two occurred because of the wider impact of the lockdown.

The findings provide a possible explanation for the prime minister's recent claim that another full national lockdown would only be considered as a "nuclear option".

The estimates, made by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) and analysts from several government departments, suggest there were 38,500 excess deaths in England connected to COVID-19 between March and 1 May.

However, the report concludes 41% of those deaths were the result of missed medical care rather than the virus itself...


The U.S. does not have such official statistics. However, there is an argument that much the same is here (WSJ OpEd, but this has it without paywall):
The Failed Experiment of Covid Lockdowns

Six months into the Covid-19 pandemic, the U.S. has now carried out two large-scale experiments in public well being—first,…

in March and April, the lockdown of the economic system to arrest the unfold of the virus, and second, since mid-April, the reopening of the economic system. The outcomes are in. Counterintuitive although it could be, statistical evaluation reveals that locking down the economic system didn’t comprise the illness’s unfold and reopening it didn’t unleash a second wave of infections.

Contemplating that lockdowns are economically expensive and create well-documented long-term public-health penalties past Covid, imposing them seems to have been a big coverage error. Originally, when little was identified, officers acted in methods they thought prudent. However now proof proves that lockdowns had been an costly therapy with critical unintended effects and no profit to society
....
 
Tranquility,

florduh

Well-Known Member
In the UK they're saying 40% of the deaths from Covid are actually from their lockdown.

No, that's what a Sky News writer editor says in a headline. In the rest of the article, he goes on to disprove his own headline. There is nothing in the article about "lockdowns" causing excess death. It says people were reluctant to go to the hospital in the middle of a pandemic. Not that the hospitals were closed. They chose not to go. Apparently a government report estimates that up to 16,000 people died due to not seeking out prompt medical care. Not because their local pub was closed.

I'm guessing the writer wrote an article describing excess deaths resulting from people choosing to forgo medical treatment during a pandemic, and a Sky editor decided to make the headline some bullshit about the dreaded LOCKDOWNS. Unfortunately it appears the editor didn't actually read the article he wrote a headline for.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
No, that's what a Sky News writer editor says in a headline. In the rest of the article, he goes on to disprove his own headline. There is nothing in the article about "lockdowns" causing excess death. It says people were reluctant to go to the hospital in the middle of a pandemic. Not that the hospitals were closed. They chose not to go. Apparently a government report estimates that up to 16,000 people died due to not seeking out prompt medical care. Not because their local pub was closed.

I'm guessing the writer wrote an article describing excess deaths resulting from people choosing to forgo medical treatment during a pandemic, and a Sky editor decided to make the headline some bullshit about the dreaded LOCKDOWNS. Unfortunately it appears the editor didn't actually read the article he wrote a headline for.
I'll agree with you the real problem is the panic porn people keep putting out to keep others in fear. Is that your claim? That it was not the lockdown's that caused the death, but the fear of the disease?

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3r8utq.jpg
 
Tranquility,

florduh

Well-Known Member
I'll agree with you the real problem is the panic porn people keep putting out to keep others in fear. Is that your claim?

No, that's your claim. I think a widespread disease that's still killing a fairly large number of people, and causing organ damage in even more is a "real problem".

That it was not the lockdown's that caused the death, but the fear of the disease?

Yes, that's the claim from the article you posted. It is completely different from the claim in that article's headline. Pretty obnoxious that I managed to read that article but the guy who came up with the headline couldn't. Claiming 40% of COVID deaths are from LOCKDOWNS is plain Fake News, not even backed up by their own writing.

Also, if the people in question were so sick that putting off medical care for a few weeks killed them, that means they were likely either old, or had a pre-existing condition. Did we want THE MEDIA to downplay the risk to those groups of people from March-May?

Some have argued that it's no big deal when people die, so long as they are old or have any pre-existing medical condition. I disagree with that of course, but it's certainly a prevalent sentiment recently. I'm glad everyone here agrees that it's tragic even when older people and those who weren't perfectly healthy die.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
No, that's your claim. I think a widespread disease that's still killing a fairly large number of people, and causing organ damage in even more is a "real problem".
Don't ever go to a place with gambling. They, too, try to fool people in regards to risk.
 
Tranquility,

florduh

Well-Known Member
Only like 2% of US Soldiers died during WW2. If you fought in WW2, you were statistically likely to survive. So the Germans and Japanese weren't a "real problem".

Also is the science behind helmets really settled yet? Why did they wear them? Like I said, you were very unlikely to die as an American in WW2. Did you know helmets can cause dandruff? Think of all the scalp related diseases soldiers suffered down the road because they were forced to wear a helmet while fighting in a war they were very unlikely to die in.
 
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Shrike

Flower Potted, Maxed, & Rio'd.
^^^Is that 2% number for all soldiers that were in combat situations or is it for all in the military regardless of whether they ever picked up a weapon?
 
Shrike,

florduh

Well-Known Member
^^^Is that 2% number for all soldiers that were in combat situations or is it for all in the military regardless of whether they ever picked up a weapon?

The latter. Around 16 million served. Around 400,000 died. Roughly 2 COVIDs.
 
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Gunky

Well-Known Member
Using memes to support your opinions. <yawn>
Regardless living in fear appears to me to be the official Right way.

Afraid of everything, and proud of it.
Hey we're in a situation where a if you are older a bad decision can pretty easily result in death from covid. So fear is healthy.
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
COVID in Children
Recent evidence suggests children can be carriers of SARS-CoV-2, which has implications as schools reopen this Fall.


We don’t know exactly what the risk is of asymptomatic children passing on the virus, but this study suggests it is not negligible. This, of course, would be the worst-case-scenario for opening schools – that children can be asymptomatic carriers and spreaders of the virus, bringing it back to the adults in their home. Meanwhile, the American Academy of Pediatric is urging a “safe” return to school this fall, especially for younger children. They are concerned about the learning and socialization of children, especially since we have essentially already lost a semester. How do we balance these two concerns?

In countries where the pandemic is still spreading, like the US, we need to carefully consider our strategy for returning children safely to school while containing the pandemic. Here the South Korea model may be instructional – use extensive testing and contact tracing to detect any spreaders and isolate them quickly. No such system is in place in the US, however.

Basic precautions will help to some degree. Many schools are reducing the number of days children will be in school and instituting rules for social distancing, mask wearing, and hand hygiene. This will help. Younger children may find it harder to comply, but they are also less likely it appears to contract the virus and spread it in any case. Shifting as much as possible to online learning is also one strategy.

Many schools, however, lack the resources to fully implement a COVID strategy for this fall. This is all a massive experiment, and we may not like the outcome.
 

macbill

Oh No! Mr macbill!!
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Penn State University football doctor: 30-35 percent of COVID-19-positive Big Ten athletes had myocarditis

New data helps illustrate what Big Ten Commissioner Kevin Warren might have meant when he described “too much medical uncertainty and too many unknown health risks” as reasons for postponing the Big Ten’s 2020-21 fall sports season.

During a State College Area school board of directors meeting on Monday night, Wayne Sebastianelli — Penn State’s director of athletic medicine — made some alarming comments about the link between COVID-19 and myocarditis, particularly in Big Ten athletes. Sebastianelli said that cardiac MRI scans revealed that approximately a third of Big Ten athletes who tested positive for COVID-19 appeared to have myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle that can be fatal if left unchecked.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
If you live to be 100, Covid does not seem the thing to fear.
The Mystery of Why So Many 100-Year-Olds Are Surviving Covid-19
The article says:
...Now focused on those older than 95 who defeated Covid-19, Zatz is already recruiting and collecting blood samples from people in that age group who were either diagnosed with Covid-19 or were in very close contact with symptomatic Covid-19 patients. “When people ask me why these people are surviving, I usually answer that it’s probably precisely because they are centenarians,” Zatz says. “Apparently, these people have a huge resistance to any challenge coming from the environment, including Covid-19.”

Through whole genome sequencing, she hopes to identify possible genetic mutations associated with Covid-19 super-resistance. “We suspect it’s not a single gene, but a combination of genes,” Zatz says. And if such mutations exist, she wants to know what they do. Are the mutations responsible for altering the function of a certain protein that might contribute to the body’s defense against the virus, for example? If scientists can find a way to trigger that same effect in people without such mutations, that could be a potential new treatment strategy to be explored....


But, we know:
3fa49b838c4d0444c971a74b2f2aabef.jpg


Edited to add (for the fearful):
coronavirus-affect-stonres-weed-memes-758x437.jpg
 
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florduh

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Penn State University football doctor: 30-35 percent of COVID-19-positive Big Ten athletes had myocarditis

New data helps illustrate what Big Ten Commissioner Kevin Warren might have meant when he described “too much medical uncertainty and too many unknown health risks” as reasons for postponing the Big Ten’s 2020-21 fall sports season.

During a State College Area school board of directors meeting on Monday night, Wayne Sebastianelli — Penn State’s director of athletic medicine — made some alarming comments about the link between COVID-19 and myocarditis, particularly in Big Ten athletes. Sebastianelli said that cardiac MRI scans revealed that approximately a third of Big Ten athletes who tested positive for COVID-19 appeared to have myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle that can be fatal if left unchecked.

Yeah the Scientific American article I posted mentioned this. There are otherwise asymptomatic patients whose hearts are getting damaged by the virus. Now, normally this probably wouldn't be enough to cause immediate harm to a healthy 20 year old. But if you're adding grueling football practices in hot weather on top of it... not hard to see how could this could land some athletes in the hospital. Tough choices for college athletic directors.

This is also another fun reminder that COVID ain't the flu. Influenza can cause myocarditis but it's pretty rare. You certainly don't see it in over a third of college aged kids with the flu. Probably because the evidence is mounting that unlike influenza, COVID attacks heart tissue directly. What a creepy ass disease.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
Yeah the Scientific American article I posted mentioned this. There are otherwise asymptomatic patients whose hearts are getting damaged by the virus. Now, normally this probably wouldn't be enough to cause immediate harm to a healthy 20 year old. But if you're adding grueling football practices in hot weather on top of it... not hard to see how could this could land some athletes in the hospital. Tough choices for college athletic directors.

This is also another fun reminder that COVID ain't the flu. Influenza can cause myocarditis but it's pretty rare. You certainly don't see it in over a third of college aged kids with the flu. Probably because the evidence is mounting that unlike influenza, COVID attacks heart tissue directly. What a creepy ass disease.
The CDC lists myocarditis as one of the similarities between flu and Covid. But, there is some suggestion it is greater in Covid from the current studies. No double blind study with numbers to actually compare, but greater. But, it's not like it doesn't happen with the flu (at least certain ones) at a pretty high rate.
Myocarditis Associated with Influenza A H1N1pdm2009

Table 1
Detailed characteristics of 58 patients with myocarditis associated with H1N1pdm2009 influenza.
Characteristics of 58 patients with H1N1pdm2009 influenza reported in detail​
Result (%)​
Age (mean, years) (range)​
32 (3–72)​
Less than 17 years (%)​
14 cases (24%)​
Sex (% female)​
30 cases (52%)​
Death (%)​
14 cases (24%)​
Interval between influenza onset and cardiac symptoms (mean, days) (range)​
5.4 (1–21)​
 1st day to the 3rd day (%)​
51%​
Cardiac symptoms​
 ​
 Dyspnea (%)​
54%​
 Chest pain (%)​
30%​
Fulminant myocarditis (%)​
36 cases (62%)​
 Mortality rate of patients with fulminant myocarditis​
39% (14/36)​
Pneumonia as a complication (%)​
13 cases (22%)​
ECG findings on the first day of hospitalization​
 ​
 ST elevation (%)​
34%​
 T inversion (%)​
24%​
 Fatal arrhythmias (VF, VT, complete AV block) (%)​
22%​
Echocardiogram​
 ​
 Diffuse or focal left ventricular wall motion abnormalities​
90%​
 Ejection Fraction (mean ± SD)​
25 ± 11%​
Percentage of patients in whom CAD was ruled out by CAG​
41%​
Percentage of adult patients in whom CAD was ruled out by CAG​
64%​
Treatment​
 ​
Neuraminidase inhibitors​
85%​
PCPS​
10 cases (17%)​
LVAD​
1 case (1.7%)​
IABP​
11 cases (19%)​
PCPS or LVAD and/or PCPS​
17 cases (29%)​
 Mortality of patients treated with mechanical support​
23% (4/17)​
ECMO​
12 cases (21%)​
Biopsy​
10 cases (17%)​
 Myocarditis with lymphocyte infiltration (mild~moderate)​
6 cases​
 No myocarditis (according to the Dallas criteria)​
4 cases​
Autopsy​
8 cases (14%)​
 Pachy hemorrhage in the autopsied heart​
3/8 cases (38%)​
 RT-PCR positivity rate for H1N1pdm2009 virus from heart specimens​
4 cases​

ECG: electrocardiogram; VF: ventricular fibrillation; VT: ventricular tachycardia; AV block: atrioventricular block; CAD: coronary artery disease; CAG: coronary angiography; PCPS: percutaneous cardiopulmonary support; LVAD: left ventricular assist device; IABP: intra-aortic balloon pumping; ECMO: extracorporeal membrane oxygenation; RT-PCR: reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction.


The long-term risk from that "damage" is uncertain for all instances of myocarditis--let alone for Covid caused ones.

The short and medium term is that general recommendation of anyone who has had myocarditis is to avoid athletic activity for 6 months. If an athlete got Covid and got the myocarditis complication, he's out for at least a season. That's not really that bad a thing for the vast majority of college athletes (as long as no one were to mess with scholarships from that), but to the small subset that have a chance to make a career of whatever sport, it is big money.

But, there is not some hidden myocarditis that's causing a lot of problems. If someone is dying from it or from associated arrhythmias, they're already pretty sick by other criteria as well.

funny-pictures-auto-601973.jpeg
 
Tranquility,

florduh

Well-Known Member
But, it's not like it doesn't happen with the flu (at least certain ones) at a pretty high rate.

The bolded words are doing an enormous amount of work in that sentence. You cherrypicked H1N1, the strain behind the Swine Flu and the 1918 pandemic. I'm not sure that's what people who write off COVID as "just the flu" are referring to. Pretty sure they're just talking about your average seasonal flu. Find me data that shows 35% of 20 year olds who get the flu every year are experiencing myocarditis.

Edit: I didn't realize you posted H1N1 data from a specific set of 58 people, 24% of whom died. The mortality rate for h1n1 wasn't 24%. I'm not sure what this data has to do with anything.

It's also important to remember that influenza can cause myocarditis via general inflammation. It looks like COVID causes it by directly infecting heart tissue.

But, there is not some hidden myocarditis that's causing a lot of problems. If someone is dying from it or from associated arrhythmias, they're already pretty sick by other criteria as well.

There literally is hidden myocarditis though. That's what the Scientific American article entitled "COVID-19 Can Wreck Your Heart, Even if You Haven’t Had Any Symptoms" was specifically referring to. Hopefully college athletes are being tested regularly, because their hearts could be impaired before any other symptom presents itself. Or I guess they could wing it and hope for the best during a 4 hour intense football practice.
 
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macbill

Oh No! Mr macbill!!
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