Arizer ArGo

[invertedisdead]

Shame this is not and on demand convection portable. I dont do electric conduction anymore.

Arizer make some great products if they did decide to do a convection portable sure it would be great.

Those on demand convection vapes eat so much battery though that it tends to compromise their portability. My Grasshopper was very portable but only got like one bowl per charge, so it needed a whole carry kit of accessories to sustain its portability.

 

[OF]

I hope it has the same amount, or more.
Enough to make a difference.
Not enough to argue with people on the internet over.

I get it I'm saying some unpopular things, but I don't see it as arguing. It's a discussion, the very reason this (or other) Forum is for? Discussions, hopefully 'backed up' with facts.

That's what I feel I've done. I've said it's conduction and there is basically no such thing as conduction/convection hybrids at the levels we use here. Thermodynamics simply doesn't allow it. That's the science here I think (and would welcome a discussion on that level).

Opinions are fine, great even at times. But here the discussion is using technical terms incorrectly, IMO that should be called out. We owe it to each other to be honest (and polite) in such things so folks can get information they can trust to base decisions on.

Feel free to post your opinions about what is going on, but you should expect me to disagree (and provide evidence) as I hope others would do with me. If you say something important that I think isn't so (and can demonstrate)I feel it's important to do so.

If you have any 'evidence' to back up the opinion, please bring it on? TIA.

Once again, I point to PIU who was honest with '......after careful inspection we conclude there is no convection going on'. They have every reason to 'sing the party line' and make more sales, but chose honesty? Hopefully folks trust Randy?

Shame this is not and on demand convection portable. I dont do electric conduction anymore.

Arizer make some great products if they did decide to do a convection portable sure it would be great.

I understand there is a strong demand for this idea. I've used some convection vapes, and still do in many cases, but don't share this opinion here. It's just not practical I think?

There are existing options, of course, that avoid Butane power (which seems taboo in some circles). GH and ESV come to mind. I don't have a GH but understand they have some reliability/use issues? I do have an ESV (two in fact, I got one real cheap.....). They can, with enough fiddling, vape a bowl very well but you won't like the battery life. Convection eats up the power, also making the vapor hotter (not easy to cool in compact vapes) and the vape itself hotter to hold.

If you allow Butane, VGs are excellent examples of 'on demand convection vapes'. They 'get around the power consumption issue by using gas which has huge energy capacity.

If it could be done well, I agree, Arizer would be right there in the lead. But since they aren't doing it I suggest there are technical issues, not marketing decisions, that are preventing that?

And remember, even with conduction (as in Summit) just the 'on demand' part can hammer battery life big time. My Summit OG sometimes gets only one complete bowl on a charge if I hit it over and over and over. It takes a lot of power to get that first hit from cold. And if every hit is a 'first hit' from a power consumption POV, power capacity becomes a critical point real fast.

If you must have an on demand convection vape you have a couple of choices in the market, but the very fact they are not taking over the vaping world says there are problems with the idea? No, not problems, but 'undesirable trade-offs' to get there?

Have you tried VG, GH or ESV? What did you think of them?

Capitalism is great IMO. If it was possible, Arizer or some other 'smart outfit' would smell the profit and bring it to market. Competition makes that happen if we let it. It's definitely not for lack of desire or trying.

Regards,

OF

Edit:

Those on demand convection vapes eat so much battery though that it tends to compromise their portability. My Grasshopper was very portable but only got like one bowl per charge, so it needed a whole carry kit of accessories to sustain its portability.

This is interesting, I stopped following that thread a while back as deadlines came and went on a nearly weekly basis. Kind of glad I never 'bought in' I think. This battery is the one they advertised as providing HOURS of vaping early on (when they wanted folks to put down deposits on the promises)?

That (unrealistic battery life claims) was the clue to me. They were 'winging it' and didn't have the experience with Production to see it? Wishful thinking over provable technology. I used ESV as an example of why real world power demands wouldn't allow such performance (I think I estimated 6 minutes total heating time?). Gratifying to know the rules of Physics are still in effect, I'm getting too old to learn new ones for sure. Thanks for the timely data point.

OF

 

[Just Justin]

Just got my ArGo! Put a load through it and I am impressed. This is my first Arizer product and I cannot compare it to the Solo or Air but I have tried, own many different vapes and I think this will be a favorite of mine. I prefer mainly on demand / convection vapes, most recently the Ghost Mv1 and I can't say forsure but I believe the ArGo uses the same style heater as the Air and Solo vapes, mostly conduction heat and the chamber looks the same, just smaller. I vaped on 356F my standard for trying new vapes and the results were excellent. First of all, the ArGo is TINY! Body is a nice anodized aluminum upper and a smooth / softish plastic lower and it feels high quality, doesn't rattle and its quite light. The diameter of the Glass chamber is 11mm outside and 9mm inside by about 15mm deep, it holds quite a bit, more than I typically use at a time. The heat up was fast, I'll time it next time but it was around 30-45 seconds to 356F. I got vapor on the first draw and it quickly became denser but smooth, super flavorful and cool. The draw resistance is really good and free flowing. The vape got warm but not hot and is very comfortable to hold and use. The ABV was perfectly tanned and even throughout.

I will try to add pics today, so let me know if there is something in particular you are wondering about. Overall, the ArGo is a real winner for me so far!

 

[KeroZen]

@OF: There are more than a couple on-demand convection vapes, and it's the only type I use these days. Not listed above are (at least): Firewood 4, Milaana, Zion, MistVape Touch, The Project (3 versions), Alan's iHeat, Tubo Evic/Dual and soon the Nomad, as well as the new Ghost MV1.

For sure battery life is less than with conduction but all the above (minus the Ghost) use standard 18650's and are nowhere near as bad as the Grasshopper. With removable cells, you just need to carry a two-pack plus the cell inside the vape and it should get most users through the day without any problem.

In the Mighty/Crafty thread as well as S&B literature they sure claim their devices are mostly convection with some conduction to get going faster. They use the term hybrid I think.

 

[Sh4dy15]

Just got my ArGo! Put a load through it and I am impressed. This is my first Arizer product and I cannot compare it to the Solo or Air but I have tried, own many different vapes and I think this will be a favorite of mine. I prefer mainly on demand / convection vapes, most recently the Ghost Mv1 and I can't say forsure but I believe the ArGo uses the same style heater as the Air and Solo vapes, mostly conduction heat and the chamber looks the same, just smaller. I vaped on 356F my standard for trying new vapes and the results were excellent. First of all, the ArGo is TINY! Body is a nice anodized aluminum upper and a smooth / softish plastic lower and it feels high quality, doesn't rattle and its quite light. The diameter of the Glass chamber is 11mm outside and 9mm inside by about 15mm deep, it holds quite a bit, more than I typically use at a time. The heat up was fast, I'll time it next time but it was around 30-45 seconds to 356F. I got vapor on the first draw and it quickly became denser but smooth, super flavorful and cool. The draw resistance is really good and free flowing. The vape got warm but not hot and is very comfortable to hold and use. The ABV was perfectly tanned and even throughout.

I will try to add pics today, so let me know if there is something in particular you are wondering about. Overall, the ArGo is a real winner for me so far!

Thanks for the review! Good stuff!

Hoping to have mine by Friday but we'll see! I would like to see what it looks like size wise with something to compare it to. Happy to hear its smooth and the vapor is somehow cool. That is shocking to me considering how small the vapor path is but Firefly 2 pulls it off also.

 

[OF]

@OF: There are more than a couple on-demand convection vapes, and it's the only type I use these days. Not listed above are (at least): Firewood 4, Milaana, Zion, MistVape Touch, The Project (3 versions), Tubo Evic/Dual and soon the Nomad, as well as the new Ghost MV1.

For sure battery life is less than with conduction but all the above (minus the Ghost) use standard 18650's and are nowhere near as bad as the Grasshopper.

In the Mighty/Crafty thread as well as S&B literature they sure claim their devices are mostly convection with some conduction to get going faster. They use the term hybrid I think.

Thanks for the additional information, I'm sure there are others but I try to confine my posts/comments to things I have first hand knowledge/experience and confidence in. I understand that's not always the case...... I don't know those vapes, so I don't comment on them? Nice to know there's no magic in there, power consumption is still an Achilles heel and a dead give away that a vape is not convection based if it has good battery life relative to other known conduction vapes. Convection is just not that efficient. Can't be technically.

I also don't know S&B gear, but will state 'for the record' they might be honest here? That is there is such a thing as convection (remember FROM A MUCH HOTTER SOURCE) heated air getting an assist from some conduction 'preheat' function, the key here is the source of heat is much hotter than the 400F or so conduction alone provides.

Air/Solo just doesn't have that hotter source to heat the incoming air enough to make convection work. TV ran about 1200F. That's not the case therefore?

In a way the superior insulation on the TV Cera does this since it doesn't allow the load to cool much between hits. Likewise the thermal core remains filled with stored IR energy saving battery life. Even so it's a serious stretch to get 25 minutes of run time off 18650s that would deliver several times that in say Air?

Fun stuff, if your mind is twisted that way (or in my case, what's left of it.....).

Regards to all.

OF

Edit:

Spec sheet lists the size as pretty near identical to a Fury 2 so you can find pictures of those to get a general idea. Also some pictures in the reddit thread linked earlier

Holy shit thats tiny. That is not what I thought at all.

Thanks for that!

Looking forward to trying this thing out.

It's the same basic size as a deck of cards (Poker, not Bridge) or Altoids tin. A the same length (with the stem installed and cover up, 10mm shorter otherwise) and a bit more narrow and a bit thicker. But about the size of a deck of cards or tin of mints?

I too am looking forward trying mine soon, I expect something very much like Solo/Air but differently packaged. Been wrong before.......

OF

 

[NizzyJones]

Spec sheet lists the size as pretty near identical to a Fury 2 so you can find pictures of those to get a general idea. Also some pictures in the reddit thread linked earlier

 

[Sh4dy15]

Spec sheet lists the size as pretty near identical to a Fury 2 so you can find pictures of those to get a general idea. Also some pictures in the reddit thread linked earlier

Holy shit thats tiny. That is not what I thought at all.

Thanks for that!

Looking forward to trying this thing out.

 

[Just Justin]

Thanks for the review! Good stuff!

Hoping to have mine by Friday but we'll see! I would like to see what it looks like size wise with something to compare it to. Happy to hear its smooth and the vapor is somehow cool. That is shocking to me considering how small the vapor path is but Firefly 2 pulls it off also.

I'll definitely do a size comparison today with a bunch of different vapes and items to show scale. I also will try to add some detail pics of the unit as well as actual warm up times, battery life etc...

One thing I am concerned about is the heater area....Its a long ways down so if it gets dirty, it may be hard to clean out. I am very careful with my vapes and keep them super clean, so I don't think it will be an issue for me but with these glass mouthpiece/chamber tubes, the bottom is open, so debris is inevitably going to fall out unless you use screens and that's another thing I will test, is using the SS screens to see if they in fact do take away from taste and make the vapor less smooth, something I have not experienced in other vapes that use these screens but we'll see....

 

[Sh4dy15]

I'll definitely do a size comparison today with a bunch of different vapes and items to show scale. I also will try to add some detail pics of the unit as well as actual warm up times, battery life etc...

One thing I am concerned about is the heater area....Its a long ways down so if it gets dirty, it may be hard to clean out. I am very careful with my vapes and keep them super clean, so I don't think it will be an issue for me but with these glass mouthpiece/chamber tubes, the bottom is open, so debris is inevitably going to fall out unless you use screens and that's another thing I will test, is using the SS screens to see if they in fact do take away from taste and make the vapor less smooth, something I have not experienced in other vapes that use these screens but we'll see....

I am the same way with my vapes. You can pick up any of them right now and they will look like new. Can a q tip reach the bottom?

I have very rarely had to clean the Solo bowl, its usually the stems that need cleaning. So I don't think it will be a problem for you. I know you were saying you havent had an Arizer unit before. I really dont think I have ever had to clean the unit.

 

[ohmygodimsohigh]

I get it I'm saying some unpopular things, but I don't see it as arguing. It's a discussion, the very reason this (or other) Forum is for? Discussions, hopefully 'backed up' with facts.

That's what I feel I've done. I've said it's conduction and there is basically no such thing as conduction/convection hybrids at the levels we use here. Thermodynamics simply doesn't allow it. That's the science here I think (and would welcome a discussion on that level).

Opinions are fine, great even at times. But here the discussion is using technical terms incorrectly, IMO that should be called out. We owe it to each other to be honest (and polite) in such things so folks can get information they can trust to base decisions on.

Feel free to post your opinions about what is going on, but you should expect me to disagree (and provide evidence) as I hope others would do with me. If you say something important that I think isn't so (and can demonstrate)I feel it's important to do so.

If you have any 'evidence' to back up the opinion, please bring it on? TIA.

Once again, I point to PIU who was honest with '......after careful inspection we conclude there is no convection going on'. They have every reason to 'sing the party line' and make more sales, but chose honesty? Hopefully folks trust Randy?


OF

Just so we are clear - I wasn't calling anyone out.
But this is exactly what I was referring to.

"It's a discussion" - But you're the jargon guy and everyone else just has opinions.
You even framed your response by labeling your side as facts and evidence, while labeling everything else as opinions without evidence.

I've learned that I'd rather be "wrong on the internet" than deal with the frustrations of "discussions" like this one.


Despite the Arizer Air/Solo's lack of dedicated convection heater, both devices have SOME benefit of heated intake air. Not enough to drive the vapor by itself, but enough to make a difference.


I am OK with my beliefs going against the grain of your semantics or scientific understanding.
If you are NOT ok with that - it's a YOU problem.

 

[stickstones]

Ultra high temps aren’t necessary for convection if it’s done efficiently. When we calibrate minivaps after repairs we set the temp of the heat exchanger to 230C. We measure the top of the heat exchanger that is located 1-2mm below the herb chamber. The Teflon walls help keep the system very heat-efficient.

If a vape needs to climb into the 900+F range at the heater to get to vape temps, it’s either an inefficient heat exchanger or there is too much heat getting lost in the journey from the heat exchanger to the herbs, imo.

 

[invertedisdead]

If a vape needs to climb into the 900+F range at the heater to get to vape temps, it’s either an inefficient heat exchanger or there is too much heat getting lost in the journey from the heat exchanger to the herbs, imo.

How low can you set the Glass Symphony and get vape temps?

 

[OF]

Ultra high temps aren’t necessary for convection if it’s done efficiently. When we calibrate minivaps after repairs we set the temp of the heat exchanger to 230C.

Sorry, I don't know the vape. But I think it's still making my point? Can you set that to 190C and make vapor? That's the maximum temperature you can expect from Solo/Air, the average will be much lower since most air doesn't contact hot metal as it goes past.

It occurs to me we should be able to sample the air temperature in Solo/Air? Modify a short stem with a tube in the center and a small pump? If the cup is 400F, there's no way it's any hotter, on average I bet a LOT less?

OF

 

[Baron23]

My Grasshopper was very portable but only got like one bowl per charge

You need new batteries, mate. That ain't the capacity with proper batteries, IME. More like 3-4

I also don't know S&B gear

There are two heaters in there...one around the SS air path below the oven and one around the oven.

Hybrid.

Cheers

 

[stickstones]

@OF - with regard to the minivap, the answer is yes. The 230c is calibrated to the highest setting only. It has three settings lower than that.



A lot of the convection/conduction debate is about semantics, I think. I’ve had it out with manufacturers before about vapes being called convection just because the power was being applied only to the heater and not the herb chamber.

Here’s how I see it. I only look at it from the perspective of the herbs. How is heat applied to them? I don’t care how we heat the bowl since I’m not vaping that...I care about the herbs!

With that as a baseline for definition and perspective, we can classify vapes as heating by conduction, convection, or both (don’t get me started on radiation), also loosely called a hybrid. If the herbs in a vape are heated by a hot air stream as well as a heated bowl or secondary heat like conduction from a bowl heated through radiation, I call it a hybrid.

I’ve been chasing portable convection for nearly ten years now, and now that I’m collecting real data from temp tests I’m becoming convinced that we all like conduction more than we know. The Mighty is a crowd favorite and many consider that S&B has found the special mix in their portables to give us flavorful, thick, consistent hits, often citing how much convection it must have. I thought the same until I dropped a probe in a Mighty. Turns out the oven is brought to temp on the first convection hit but stays pretty stable after that, yielding mostly conduction hits thereafter. Temp drops between hits weren’t more than 30 degrees, iirc. I haven’t repeated it enough to feel it’s gospel, but I’m working on it.


Arizer portables have the heating system directly fixed to the bowl, which is in direct contact with the glass stem, so it appears to be a conduction system. Certainly the majority of energy from it is being conducted into the system. But there are two things that make these portables different from the flowermate style of portables. First, the heater is upwind, so air entering the system passes over the heater, through the holes in the bowl, over the hot bowl and glass before hitting the herbs. The air robs the system of heat as it flows through, carrying it into the herbs via convection. All this robbing cools the system and it needs to recover, which is why it appears to behave like a conduction vape. I was fooled by this for years until actual measurements were taken. Second, the glass stem acts as a heat barrier between the metal bowl and the herbs. It gets hot, but not as hot as the system, all due to glass being in there. If we direct packed the Arizer portables they would probably be full conduction. Instead, I see a bigger temp drop in the herb chamber of Arizer portables between hits due to the glass barrier than I do in the Mighty.


That’s what the tests show. I’m convinced our speculation about how Arizer portables works has been wrong for years. I used to say they were mostly conduction if not all conduction, now I don’t based on tests instead of speculation. No monetary motivation here. Arizer isn’t paying me anything.

 

[Grepper]

Is this still a thread about the Arizer go? Really sucks trying to sort through this....

 

[Baron23]

I’m becoming convinced that we all like conduction more than we know. The Mighty is a crowd favorite and many consider that S&B has found the special mix in their portables to give us flavorful, thick, consistent hits, often citing how much convection it must have. I thought the same until I dropped a probe in a Mighty. Turns out the oven is brought to temp on the first convection hit but stays pretty stable after that, yielding mostly conduction hits thereafter. Temp drops between hits weren’t more than 30 degrees, iirc. I haven’t repeated it enough to feel it’s gospel, but I’m working on it.

I have often felt that conduction was unfairly given a bad rep. I like to put a liquid pad on top of my Mighty loads to add to the conductive portion.

I will say that subjectively, the Mighty doesn't feel or taste like a straight up conduction vape to me until the end of the load.

I do agree that the S&B portable heater scheme takes the need for 'technique' and 'learning curve' out of the equation. All you got to do is suck, and you do know how to suck don't you, Steve? You just put your lips together and inhale! hahaha

For some reason I can't embed vid at point that I want...so, if you want to see one of the greatest come on lines in show business, start at 44 seconds or so.

Cheers

 

[pakalolo]

@OF and @stickstones: please find somewhere else for this discussion. The thread is for the ArGo. Thanks for your cooperation.

 

[DoStuffAndStuff]

Just to add 2c, as a guest browsing here to find my first vape (just made an account for this post) all this spam of conduction Vs convection in threads like this really doesn't help newcomers at all.

I was almost going to buy a Solo 2 until I saw the Go pop up and now I'm stuck again! On one hand I don't really care that it's smaller, but on the other early reviews are saying positive things about the airflow and less draw resistance. Suppose we have to wait for more opinions to come in

 

[JCharles]

I understand the discussion around conducriln/convection can make a thread difficult to navigate....

But when you have people commenting on not wanting/using/needing another conduction/convection vaporizer the discussion becomes immediately relevant.


Especially in today's climate where it seems people have crowned CONVECTION as the ideal way to heat herbs.


When it fact it really depends on the user - as a medical patient with asthma and other lung problems I personally find conduction to be easier on my system. I also don't want to be charging batteries all day long to stay medicated.

If I go into a thread thinking something is conduction only to find out after reading through a few discussion that in fact it's convection I would be able to make an informed decision as to if that vapes for me.


I believe if we are going to talk about the thermal exchange it should be regarding the vape in question and not the merits of a particular method of heating.


I'll refer the forum to earlier post

Conduction, Convection, Radiation Rap

On a more serious note...

And please remember that glass is an insulator of heat and not a conductor. A simple way to keep track is most conductors of heat are also good conductors of electricity (ie metals). Electrical isulators like glass, wood, ceramic, are also insulators of heat.

@stickstones - you mentioned Teflon as a material in one of the vapes you service. Is there not a concern with the Teflon off gasing or is the temperature to low for concern? I don't use Teflon pans because of how the impact my breathing.

 

[Meach]

@DoStuffAndStuff once you learn you draw technique on any vape draw restriction to me becomes a non issue...solo and a waterpipe set you can't go wrong I have owned multiple low to mid range portables and have sold off or traded almost all of them expect my solo

 

[Just Justin]

been doing some testing with the ArGo and its a sweet little vape. Super easy to use and get good results. I'm testing the battery life but so far I've vaped 2 loads at 356F for 5 minutes each and my battery is 100%. The heat up time to 356F from 62f was 45 seconds the first load and 55 seconds the second load but the vape started a few degrees colder at 59F. Draw is really nice and the vapor is very flavorful, pure, smooth and cool. Hits get warmer, dryer and less flavorful 3ish minutes in but still very nice and pleasant. I've been grinding medium-coarse w/ a Chewy 2 grinder and filling the chamber to the end with 1mm of space like suggested by Arizer. I will be trying screens, different temps and grinds to see what happens. Here a few pics: ABV from 5min @356F and about 15 draws. Pic of oven appears to be the same style as the Air and Solo vapes. ArGo Glass stem with various chambers to show scale and comparison.

 

[OF]

Especially in today's climate where it seems people have crowned CONVECTION as the ideal way to heat herbs.


When it fact it really depends on the user - as a medical patient with asthma and other lung problems I personally find conduction to be easier on my system. I also don't want to be charging batteries all day long to stay medicated.

Excellent point! In fact I think it might explain a lot? No doubt that's the 'conventional wisdom', but on what is it based? A few years back, on that topic, someone opined that in general conduction vapes were harder to clean well, which makes sense here. I think the stem being easy to keep clean goes a very long way to delivering the excellent taste. So there are exceptions. I think, for instance, Solo/Air tastes 'cleaner' than ESV, which is real conduction but harder to clean. No, make that 'darn near impossible'. VGs can fit that model too I think.

The second point is also an important one. Convection vapes mean breathing in lots of heated air along with the vapor that was made by that air. That means more drying out of you without delivering more blessed THC. Recreational users don't face this as starkly I think. For MMJ types like me, with different vapes all around, I just switch to something else when it gets into tough sledding.

Two great, even borderline profound, points in one post? Most cool. Thanks.

OF

 

[CarouselOnFire]

There's no ArGo WPA on the Arizer website. Anyone have thoughts/experiences with running this device through water?