Anvil by Vestratto

[vandalizedbythelotus]

Wrong.

we already know IH works on the anvil dude, and copper with lesser efficiency as i linked on yt. again, my point is the reason for why the wand doesn't work is the mass of the electrically conductive tip inserted in the coil (the others are all coiled too tightly). even dynavap is pretty much max effort for the wand, since it was made for lower mass objects. the main issue here is mass, more than copper in it heating slower from IH.

I quoted that induction top/stoves wont work with copper and aluminium,because even they dont have enough current. Also in those IH that can melt copper ,the spiral is cooled,so it doesnt melt.
""Induction Heating systems require water cooling in order to remove the heat generated by electrical losses in the heating system. In particular, losses due to the very high amperages present in the induction coil.""

they have cooling but you seemed to suggest if copper was heated by induction the copper coil would melt from the field. and i was making clear the coil heats up from the crazy currents running through it, not from the induction field it generates.

 

[Vestratto]

Copper is barely heated by induction compared to SS that is the point. IH works on the anvil because it has SS,not because it has copper. By the time you use enough current to heat the copper the SS would be melted ,so it aint practical. You can do a test by inserting copper a dynavap IH, it wont get heated,you will probably need 5x-10x the current to heat it to the same level as the SS. Anyway lets agree to disagree and move on with this.

Hi - its John here from Vestratto

This is an overly simple explanation of IH in general but is totally in line with what everyone here has said and may help some other readers digest the principles . When I studied physics as an undergrad this stuff baffled my brain but that was the case with most things. I don't want to beat a dead horse but here it goes.

Electric currents produce magnetic fields. Thats true.
Reciprocally magnetic fields produce electric currents. Also true.

These basic principles are visible to all of us every time we see an electric motor running.

Electric currents in an induction coil produce a magnetic field inside the coil that penetrates any object put inside the coil.

If the object in the induction coil is conductive the magnetic field penetrating that object INDUCES (hence the name) small electric currents in the object that gather on the skin of the object. All currents migrate to the skin of a wire, not down the middle. Mind blowing and for another thread.

As the current in the induction coil alternates back and forth the magnetic field switches back and forth to match. The resulting tiny "induced" alternating currents on the skin of the object run into the electrical resistance of the material the object is made from. Some of the current is lost to this electrical resistance generating heat. Materials with high resistance like steel heat much better in an induction heater than objects made from low resistance like copper. At the same current level if the steel is getting vaporizer hot the copper is only getting warm. Magnetic steels heat even better because they are more susceptible to the magnetic field generated by the induction coil and so get hotter and get hotter faster.

The reason we are experimenting with changing the outer layer of the CopperCore from 304 to a more magnetic 410 series is to take advantage of the higher susceptibility and to see if we can squeeze the performance of current IH heaters through material science rather than wholesale hardware upgrades. Like everything in life its probably going to be a compromise that lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[Petetbay]

crazy currents

Over 40years ago I taking electrical engineering either I forgot or missed the crazy currents class, all I know is it wasn’t on the exams.

we already know IH works on the anvil dude, and copper with lesser efficiency as i linked on yt. again, my point is the reason for why the wand doesn't work is the mass of the tip (the others are all coiled too tightly). even dynavap is pretty much max effort for the wand, since it was made for lower mass objects. the main issue here is mass, more than copper in it heating slower from IH.

What John said.
I briefly mentioned using copper pans with induction heating they work because they have a steel base where the steel induces the heat then transfers it to the copper, same as the Anvil, dude.

John said:
The reason we are experimenting with changing the outer layer of the CopperCore from 304 to a more magnetic 410 series is to take advantage of the higher susceptibility and to see if we can squeeze the performance of current IH heaters through material science rather than wholesale hardware upgrades. Like everything in life its probably going to be a compromise that lies somewhere in the middle.

410 good move, might work.

 

[vandalizedbythelotus]

Over 40years ago I taking electrical engineering either I forgot or missed the crazy currents class, all I know is it wasn’t on the exams.

What John said.
I briefly mentioned using copper pans with induction heating they work because they have a steel base where the steel induces the heat then transfers it to the copper, same as the Anvil, dude.

"Copper is one of the most difficult materials to heat with induction in terms of efficiency, while iron is one of the easiest. Induction heating efficiency when heating copper is typically 15%, while iron is greater than 90%"

Brazing 101: Induction Heating - FABTECH

The basics of induction brazing are provided to dispel common misconceptions BY W. ADAM MORRISON W. ADAM MORRISON (amorrison@ ajaxtocco.com) is the

www.fabtechexpo.com

this is because ideally you want a conductive material but with high resistance, and copper is very low resistance, however it still "works" heats up from IH. the point is moot since the cooper battery would heat up faster from the 304 layers anyway. but it still counts for the load, and overall looks like it's too much for dynavap 10A max heaters to be effective. same reason someone else gave up on making a 3 dynavap heater for phatpiggie's stem. not because of the materials as much as the mass.

everything i said is demonstrable.

by crazy currents i meant crazy high oscillating current... geez you guys are so agressive ...

 

[Petetbay]

Copper is one of the most difficult materials to heat with induction in terms of efficiency, while iron is one of the easiest. Induction heating efficiency when heating copper is typically 15%, while iron is greater than 90%

Yeah, tell me something I don’t know without googling it.

You have have used up your allotment of free arguments. Dude.

 

[DennisFlonasal]

Hi - John here from Vestratto

You don't know me very well yet. You can learn more about me if you want by googling "john mumford xltek" to see my background. With that I hope you will see that I am serious about what I'm doing here. I am trying to help advance new ideas in the cannabis vaporizer world. You may not agree with me and I'm totally willing to be proven wrong but I am not a snake oil salesman.

The original science this post, and the Anvil airflow design, is based on is not mine but was developed by the cigarette industry in its investigations of nicotine bioavailability and cigarette design. In designing Anvil many investigations of parallel technologies took place.

As you lower the pressure liquids boil at a lower temperature because it takes less energy for the molecules to escape. Its why in movies about mountain climbing the tea never gets hot despite boiling vigorously in the kettle. The average human generates a Maximum Inspiratory Pressure of about 80 cm/H2O. That's how hard your diaphragm can pull when you inhale. This is negligible industrially but if you've ever had to explain a hicky you know its very real. Think of an aerosol cloud as balls. Some particles are big, basketballs while some are small, marbles. As you inhale the basketballs in the cloud would get stuck in your mouth or your throat. The golf balls could go much deeper. Marbles deeper still.

Closing down the air valve on an Anvil and pulling hard with your diaphragm will decrease the pressure in the herb chamber by 80 cm/H2O resulting in a small statistical shift in the size of the aerosol particle mix towards smaller particles. These smaller particles penetrate perhaps only one bronchiole branch deeper in the lungs but that is huge in bioavailability because it doubles with each branch. With Anvil we can't generate an ideal aerosol - because we are powered by human lungs - but we can optimize the engineering and apply basic physics to improve the results. We are trying to, even if only by a small amount, shift some "basketballs into golf balls into marbles".

well that was fascinating, look forward to you posting more

 

[mephisto]

Look forward to anything directly related to the Anvil. I am not in this thread for drama, or IH technology. Bring on the Anvil
and leave the rest at the door.

 

[DennisFlonasal]

Look forward to anything directly related to the Anvil. I am not in this thread for drama, or IH technology. Bring on the Anvil
and leave the rest at the door.

agreed, not sure I am understand how IH even makes sense for this application

 

[Greenleaf88]

The fact you don't have to spin and can place the flame on one spot, just seems so much more appealing to use a torch.

 

[arremana]

Kaixo!
I bought an anvil the Last friday, order 1042,today i got an e mail from vestratto, speaking about shopify, holidays, customs and other things that will delay the anvil arrival, but vestratto doesn't say when he is going to send my order.
I am wondering right now if really there are anvils ready to ship.
Somebody else got the same mail?
Can we trust in this vendor?

 

[Greenleaf88]

Kaixo!
I bought an anvil the Last friday, order 1042,today i got an e mail from vestratto, speaking about shopify, holidays, customs and other things that will delay the anvil arrival, but vestratto doesn't say when he is going to send my order.
I am wondering right now if really there are anvils ready to ship.
Somebody else got the same mail?
Can we trust in this vendor?

I was order 1047 and I got no such email.

 

[Vape Soda]

Kaixo!
I bought an anvil the Last friday, order 1042,today i got an e mail from vestratto, speaking about shopify, holidays, customs and other things that will delay the anvil arrival, but vestratto doesn't say when he is going to send my order.
I am wondering right now if really there are anvils ready to ship.
Somebody else got the same mail?
Can we trust in this vendor?

I got the same mail, but I’m not too worried. It was mentioned before that shipping will take few days, and it’s still that. Never expected an Anvil under the Christmas tree.

 

[Vape_Or_Die420]

I did not order but i signed up for the newsletter and i recieved the same letter. The subject read "thanks for your order". At first i was like, WHAT?, are they sending me one?? I got really excited. It looks like the email might have been sent to me on accident.

I want one really bad but can't afford one at the moment. Looks badass!

 

[Zuhdj]

Kaixo!
I bought an anvil the Last friday, order 1042,today i got an e mail from vestratto, speaking about shopify, holidays, customs and other things that will delay the anvil arrival, but vestratto doesn't say when he is going to send my order.
I am wondering right now if really there are anvils ready to ship.
Somebody else got the same mail?
Can we trust in this vendor?

I can confirm what he's talking about. My parents own several businesses and it does take some time for funds to clear and be confirmed through the banks. Just be patient y'all. We'll get our anvils

 

[Greenleaf88]

I do have a question might make look stupid but here goes.
The order I made last week for the anvil was it a pre order or for something physical lol

 

[Zuhdj]

I do have a question might make look stupid but here goes.
The order I made last week for the anvil was it a pre order or for something physical lol

Depends on when you ordered. The ready to ship units sold out Saturday morning but their still letting you preorder the next batch

 

[arremana]

I do have a question might make look stupid but here goes.
The order I made last week for the anvil was it a pre order or for something physical lol

I am wondering the same thing, i've bought it thinking it was ready to ship,but now i dont know.
I placed my order before the saturday morning.

 

[Vapor Mainline]

I do have a question might make look stupid but here goes.
The order I made last week for the anvil was it a pre order or for something physical lol

If I remember correctly the units that sold on Friday were going to start shipping Tuesday, but with everything being as crazy as it is I’m flexible

 

[Greenleaf88]

It was Friday night I thought they were ready to ship im still waiting for tracking so I came to ask in case it was a pre order.

 

[ChooChooCharlie]

Hi - John here from Vestratto

You don't know me very well yet. You can learn more about me if you want by googling "john mumford xltek" to see my background. With that I hope you will see that I am serious about what I'm doing here. I am trying to help advance new ideas in the cannabis vaporizer world. You may not agree with me and I'm totally willing to be proven wrong but I am not a snake oil salesman.

The original science this post, and the Anvil airflow design, is based on is not mine but was developed by the cigarette industry in its investigations of nicotine bioavailability and cigarette design. In designing Anvil many investigations of parallel technologies took place.

As you lower the pressure liquids boil at a lower temperature because it takes less energy for the molecules to escape. Its why in movies about mountain climbing the tea never gets hot despite boiling vigorously in the kettle. The average human generates a Maximum Inspiratory Pressure of about 80 cm/H2O. That's how hard your diaphragm can pull when you inhale. This is negligible industrially but if you've ever had to explain a hicky you know its very real. Think of an aerosol cloud as balls. Some particles are big, basketballs while some are small, marbles. As you inhale the basketballs in the cloud would get stuck in your mouth or your throat. The golf balls could go much deeper. Marbles deeper still.

Closing down the air valve on an Anvil and pulling hard with your diaphragm will decrease the pressure in the herb chamber by 80 cm/H2O resulting in a small statistical shift in the size of the aerosol particle mix towards smaller particles. These smaller particles penetrate perhaps only one bronchiole branch deeper in the lungs but that is huge in bioavailability because it doubles with each branch. With Anvil we can't generate an ideal aerosol - because we are powered by human lungs - but we can optimize the engineering and apply basic physics to improve the results. We are trying to, even if only by a small amount, shift some "basketballs into golf balls into marbles".

I don't doubt your sincerity or honesty. I question the need for bioavailabilty performance advantage claims, from restricting an adjustable air inlet

The Anvil's differentiation is thermal -- no more spinning, longer heat retention, more even conduction

Sometimes simple and direct marketing is best IMO

I get the bioavailability idea with smaller is better, but where's the connection? How does Anvil, or any heated herb vape, create smaller particles than any other vape design? Pressure drop caused by a adjustable restriction at air inlet? No, don't think so. Audible sound difference and draw restriction is caused by air friction resistance at inlet. (and, why mention max human inspiratory pressure of 80/cm/H2O? How is this related to, or more importantly, unique to the Anvil?) Now, the tech inside inhalers produces smaller vapor drops, like Vuze or Syqe, but they don't use heat

Pressure drops correspond with increased flow velocity, as flow passes through smaller channels, (provided length of channel or tube is sufficient given its diameter), pressure returns to normal as flow rate returns to near inhale flow rate, at the wider herb chamber. (Open system, steady flow, no sudden extreme inhales that overwhelm inflow, which would cause drop -- like if you suddenly suck empty plastic bottle with hole punched at bottom, it will collapse, but at steady constant vape inhale rate, no internal chamber area pressure drop in an open system)

Watching instant banger whiteout after carb capping seems like magic -- so...let's apply our Denver mile high hiking water boiling knowledge and say we're dropping the pressure, dropping boiling point, more vapor than otherwise. But how much does pressure drop in banger? and how many degrees does it affect the BP of herb oils? and would a few degrees make a noticeable difference?

How about we hike over to a stream and apply what we see with currents flowing over fine sediment, turbulence mixing, turning water brown

Embrace turbulence. So many more hot air molecules hitting everything so many more times

Wish vids of spinning terp pearls existed years ago -- caused by sudden directed turbulence, not pressure drop

Posted this vid before, but interesting hearing from vape OGs

"task", inventor of enail, doubts banger pressure drop at 2hr26min. Then fasten your seat belts for a ride through bro-science land, lost count of number of times Mark says vacuum. Love the casual exchange of terms cyclonic flow and venturi effect as though they describe the same thing. "task," in a skeptical yet respectfully restrained tone, interrupts the sermon several times, then directly goes after pressure drop just past 2hr45min. Linus adds to the doubts, saying he did not find measurable drops during testing. Of course, true believer Mark (he'd need to rewrite and recant prior claims and descriptions), responds to Linus with "The Human sensor reigns supreme, you guys, I'm telling you"

Edit:

 

[Zuhdj]

I don't doubt your sincerity or honesty. I question the need for bioavailabilty performance advantage claims, from restricting an adjustable air inlet

The Anvil's differentiation is thermal -- no more spinning, longer heat retention, more even conduction

Sometimes simple and direct marketing is best IMO

I get the bioavailability idea with smaller is better, but where's the connection? How does Anvil, or any heated herb vape, create smaller particles than any other vape design? Pressure drop caused by a adjustable restriction at air inlet? No, don't think so. Audible sound difference and draw restriction is caused by air friction resistance at inlet. (and, why mention max human inspiratory pressure of 80/cm/H2O? How is this related to, or more importantly, unique to the Anvil?) Now, the tech inside inhalers produces smaller vapor drops, like Vuze or Syqe, but they don't use heat

Pressure drops correspond with increased flow velocity, as flow passes through smaller channels, (provided length of channel or tube is sufficient given its diameter), pressure returns to normal as flow rate returns to near inhale flow rate, at the wider herb chamber. (Open system, steady flow, no sudden extreme inhales that overwhelm inflow, which would cause drop -- like if you suddenly suck empty plastic bottle with hole punched at bottom, it will collapse, but at steady constant vape inhale rate, no internal chamber area pressure drop in an open system)

Watching instant banger whiteout after carb capping seems like magic -- so...let's apply our Denver mile high hiking water boiling knowledge and say we're dropping the pressure, dropping boiling point, more vapor than otherwise. But how much does pressure drop in banger? and how many degrees does it affect the BP of herb oils? and would a few degrees make a noticeable difference?

How about we hike over to a stream and apply what we see with currents flowing over fine sediment, turbulence mixing, turning water brown

Embrace turbulence. So many more hot air molecules hitting everything so many more times

Wish vids of spinning terp pearls existed years ago -- caused by sudden directed turbulence, not pressure drop

Posted this vid before, but interesting hearing from vape OGs

"task", inventor of enail, doubts banger pressure drop at 2hr26min. Then fasten your seat belts for a ride through bro-science land, lost count of number of times Mark says vacuum. Love the casual exchange of terms cyclonic flow and venturi effect as though they describe the same thing. "task," in a skeptical yet respectfully restrained tone, interrupts the sermon several times, then directly goes after pressure drop just past 2hr45min. Linus adds to the doubts, saying he did not find measurable drops during testing. Of course, true believer Mark (he'd need to rewrite and recant prior claims and descriptions), responds to Linus with "The Human sensor reigns supreme, you guys, I'm telling you"

Edit:

The pressure drop idea may be a negligible difference but it's there. It also may not be super unique to the anvil as a concept but it isn't a very widely known idea either. The supreme and maybe dynavap are the only other vapes I've heard of this concept being actively thought about by the creator and that's the main thing. The air intake may just be an air intake like any other but it was paid more attention than others due to the creators knowledge of this concept

 

[Zuhdj]

The pressure drop idea may be a negligible difference but it's there. It also may not be super unique to the anvil as a concept but it isn't a very widely known idea either. The supreme and maybe dynavap are the only other vapes I've heard of this concept being actively thought about by the creator and that's the main thing. The air intake may just be an air intake like any other but it was paid more attention than others due to the creators knowledge of this concept

Here's a video where Whiff is pulling hard enough for a recycler to work. Draw resistance must not be a big issue

https://www.reddit.com/r/vaporents/comments/rlmmnt

 

[Whiff]

Here's a video where Whiff is pulling hard enough for a recycler to work. Draw resistance must not be a big issue

https://www.reddit.com/r/vaporents/comments/rlmmnt

With the airflow port wide open you get a nice amount of airflow that's for sure, it's not too restrictive granted you don't pack the chamber as tight as you can. I just love how u can get a huge tasty hit at the lower temps to really maximize flavor!

 

[hoyo77]

Well all i can say is, going to see a few dispensaries in my area to get some medicine for testing purposes. i feel the need to give this device some thorough testing and report my findings to the community!!

 

[Zuhdj]

Has anyone gotten their shipping notification yet?

Edit: lmao at the impatience among all of us haha. Just emailed John and he says he's just waiting for funds to clear from Shopify. Should be sometime later today as far as he knows.