Anvil by Vestratto

[bhasma]

The Anvil was touted as convection heavy with some conduction. And judging by the lack of heat temper, the Anvil's standard bowl doesn't normally exceed 170°C, so it's rapid full extraction would seem to be mainly from convection.

If I heat the Anvil as I would for a light roast, but then don't draw any air through, after about 10 seconds the load is steaming slightly but still basically green, and after 15 seconds I can smell it toasting. And if I heat as I would for a dark roast and do the same thing, I can smell it toasting at 10 seconds and the load is a mix of green and lightly roasted. So some conduction is there.

Without fresh air to take heat from the oven it stays hotter than intended leading to more conduction than normal, and I suspect that repeatedly heating the Anvil without inhaling would actually cause the bowl (and perhaps the condenser head) to tarnish. Of course that's not how the device is supposed to be used and the conduction is exaggerated, but removing convection from the equation is the best way I can think of to objectively assess the conduction.

The proportions of convection and conduction depend a lot on how the device is used, and this experiment suggests that (along with heating position) the rate of airflow and time taken will affect the amount of conduction experienced. But when heated normally and finished promptly (especially in one hit) I'm convinced that the Anvil's vapour is indeed produced mostly by convection.

There is clearly some conduction during the heat up and decreasing that time will reduce it. Billazoot's method both eliminates any preliminary conduction and reduces its potential in the oven, and shows that it's not actually necessary for good extraction. The very fast heating (10-13 seconds) demonstrated by the Forge should also get the Anvil closer to pure convection.

 

[Billazoot]

The Anvil was touted as convection heavy with some conduction. And judging by the lack of heat temper, the Anvil's standard bowl doesn't normally exceed 170°C, so it's rapid full extraction would seem to be mainly from convection.

If I heat the Anvil as I would for a light roast, but then don't draw any air through, after about 10 seconds the load is steaming slightly but still basically green, and after 15 seconds I can smell it toasting. And if I heat as I would for a dark roast and do the same thing, I can smell it toasting at 10 seconds and the load is a mix of green and lightly roasted. So some conduction is there.

Without fresh air to take heat from the oven it stays hotter than intended leading to more conduction than normal, and I suspect that repeatedly heating the Anvil without inhaling would actually cause the bowl (and perhaps the condenser head) to tarnish. Of course that's not how the device is supposed to be used and the conduction is exaggerated, but removing convection from the equation is the best way I can think of to objectively assess the conduction.

The proportions of convection and conduction depend a lot on how the device is used, and this experiment suggests that (along with heating position) the rate of airflow and time taken will affect the amount of conduction experienced. But when heated normally and finished promptly (especially in one hit) I'm convinced that the Anvil's vapour is indeed produced mostly by convection.

There is clearly some conduction during the heat up and decreasing that time will reduce it. Billazoot's method both eliminates any preliminary conduction and reduces its potential in the oven, and shows that it's not actually necessary for good extraction. The very fast heating (10-13 seconds) demonstrated by the Forge should also get the Anvil closer to pure convection.

While this is true, the Anvil is simply not a convection heavy vape. It’s incredibly close to the supreme, which has nearly equal amounts of both convection and conduction via radiant heat. The signature is nearly identical in both vapes. It’s actually what it should be advertised as, because the supreme hasn’t been available for a long time and most people have been looking for an alternative for a long time.

I think you’re missing the element of heat radiation in your experiment, which the airflow starts the process of. You’re just assessing the metal to metal conduction, which the isolation on the bowl does incredibly well to keep at bay. My technique basically eliminates that entirely, but does little to stop the eventual radiation of heat and low-mid temp conduction environment that brings with it. The patina you mention also backs this up, the heat the bowl reaches is relatively low-mid temp

It’s interesting with my method, it takes the airflow going for a bit before those conduction notes come in. Noticeably longer than hitting it as designed. I’ve hit many different vapes so I know the difference fairly well. Radiation and conduction are similar in effects but different in how they work. Thus, the methods to evaluate are different.

The TA, now that is a convection heavy vape in this form factor. Using them both side by side bares this out repeatedly and consistently regardless of heating method. The upcoming tempest will be much the same I imagine.

Heat chooses the path of least resistance, and air is many times less thermally conductive than stainless steel. You can find those thermal conductivity values online if you’d like to research. You must also remember, the system is trying to reach thermal equilibrium the whole time. I believe there’s a mathematical equation that explains it well. Basically - the heat in the airstream will always try to jump ship to the more conductive metal right next to it, until the system reaches a point of equilibrium. It will keep requiring more heat to maintain, too.

Do you have an air fryer? Notice how the metal the food is on gets hot from the convection air despite the heating element not being in contact? You then have a constant conduction of heat cooking the food as well as the convection coming in. This won’t happen until the convection air starts flowing. Similar principle to the anvil.

The huge gap of air between the bowl and heater on the TA works to ensure this path has plenty of resistance.

Upon drawing, radiant heat to the bowl is there but minimal and not meaningful, in terms of the temperature it reaches. I suspect it has a lot to do with the wider shallower bowl not offering much metal to radiate heat onto and store. Again, more resistance. However you can heat lower and sort of cheat the system, which introduces more raw conduction to the bowl but not much more radiation. The signature will change accordingly and the bowl will finally begin to patina.

The much smaller air gap between steel parts on the Anvil means that radiant heat has very little resistance to overcome and will come quickly upon the airflow beginning. It basically creates an environment of constant low-mid temp conduction that somewhat synchronises with your draw. This means it happens regardless of the speed you finish the bowl. The signature being the same each time also suggests that. Even with my technique, this is inevitable. However, the deep, narrow bowl requires it to fully roast without needing to stir - so it is welcomed and necessary.

So yes, you can minimise the initial metal to metal conduction with thermal breaks and my technique to allow more time for the convection heat to do its thing. But you will always get that radiation aspect which leads to a lot of low-mid temperature conduction.

In short:

Anvil - convection on the high end, radiant conduction on the low end

TA - convection on the high and low end.

I suspect an anvil with a bigger air gap would reduce this radiation drastically by increasing resistance, and make the signature a lot closer to convection dominant. But I wouldn’t want that, I love my little pocket supreme

 

[bhasma]

While this is true, the Anvil is simply not a convection heavy vape. It’s incredibly close to the supreme, which has nearly equal amounts of both convection and conduction via radiant heat. The signature is nearly identical in both vapes. It’s actually what it should be advertised as, because the supreme hasn’t been available for a long time and most people have been looking for an alternative for a long time.

I think you’re missing the element of heat radiation in your experiment, which the airflow starts the process of. You’re just assessing the metal to metal conduction, which the isolation on the bowl does incredibly well to keep at bay. My technique basically eliminates that entirely, but does little to stop the eventual radiation of heat and low-mid temp conduction environment that brings with it. The patina you mention also backs this up, the heat the bowl reaches is relatively low-mid temp

It’s interesting with my method, it takes the airflow going for a bit before those conduction notes come in. Noticeably longer than hitting it as designed. I’ve hit many different vapes so I know the difference fairly well. Radiation and conduction are similar in effects but different in how they work. Thus, the methods to evaluate are different.

The TA, now that is a convection heavy vape in this form factor. Using them both side by side bares this out repeatedly and consistently regardless of heating method. The upcoming tempest will be much the same I imagine.

Heat chooses the path of least resistance, and air is many times less thermally conductive than stainless steel. You can find those thermal conductivity values online if you’d like to research. You must also remember, the system is trying to reach thermal equilibrium the whole time. I believe there’s a mathematical equation that explains it well. Basically - the heat in the airstream will always try to jump ship to the more conductive metal right next to it, until the system reaches a point of equilibrium. It will keep requiring more heat to maintain, too.

Do you have an air fryer? Notice how the metal the food is on gets hot from the convection air despite the heating element not being in contact? You then have a constant conduction of heat cooking the food as well as the convection coming in. This won’t happen until the convection air starts flowing. Similar principle to the anvil.

The huge gap of air between the bowl and heater on the TA works to ensure this path has plenty of resistance.

Upon drawing, radiant heat to the bowl is there but minimal and not meaningful, in terms of the temperature it reaches. I suspect it has a lot to do with the wider shallower bowl not offering much metal to radiate heat onto and store. Again, more resistance. However you can heat lower and sort of cheat the system, which introduces more raw conduction to the bowl but not much more radiation. The signature will change accordingly and the bowl will finally begin to patina.

The much smaller air gap between steel parts on the Anvil means that radiant heat has very little resistance to overcome and will come quickly upon the airflow beginning. It basically creates an environment of constant low-mid temp conduction that somewhat synchronises with your draw. This means it happens regardless of the speed you finish the bowl. The signature being the same each time also suggests that. Even with my technique, this is inevitable. However, the deep, narrow bowl requires it to fully roast without needing to stir - so it is welcomed and necessary.

So yes, you can minimise the initial metal to metal conduction with thermal breaks and my technique to allow more time for the convection heat to do its thing. But you will always get that radiation aspect which leads to a lot of low-mid temperature conduction.

In short:

Anvil - convection on the high end, radiant conduction on the low end

TA - convection on the high and low end.

I suspect an anvil with a bigger air gap would reduce this radiation drastically by increasing resistance, and make the signature a lot closer to convection dominant. But I wouldn’t want that, I love my little pocket supreme

Most people don't have a Supreme, but it appears that its thermometer measures the bowl temperature, and if so it seems to get significantly hotter than the Anvil. The designs are quite different, and "signature" is subjective. And I looked for an objective measure (i.e. the degree of roasting in the absence of any convection).

Earlier in this thread the Anvil was often compared with the discontinued Supreme, but signature wasn't mentioned:

PaperClouds compared the thickness of the Anvil's vapour to the Supreme, and seki thought it was close to the Supreme mainly in its heat retention. While Abysmal Vapor noted that both vapes have a thermal lag with the potential for overheating.

By what measure have you determined that the Supreme has equal amounts of convection and conduction? If it is like the Anvil then the way it is used should make a significant difference to the proportions. And the opinions of users vary greatly:

Abysmal Vapor and GoldenBud both described the Supreme as mostly convection. And Stu showed that the temperature inside the stem reaches 170°C by the end of a cycle, which is just like the Anvil. While invertedisdead described both devices as mainly conduction.

PlanetHaze, Whiff and John have all described the Anvil as more convection than conduction. And as often repeated, "the patina tells the tale".

I was considering conduction to the herb, and how the heat gets to the surface of the bowl (by radiation or conduction) is irrelevant to the behaviour of the herb and the vapour produced. I suppose there is some radiation to the herb if you drop in a nug that doesn't press against the wall of the bowl, but I use ground herb for more consistent extraction.

Airflow doesn't start radiation. And the Anvil's herb chamber doesn't develop a patina.

And since comparisons in a device thread are frowned upon, there is a thread for Anvil vs Supreme comparisons (although it's not very popular):

https://fuckcombustion.com/threads/how-does-the-anvil-compare-to-supreme.52075/

 

[VapingYogi]

Most people don't have a Supreme, but it appears that its thermometer measures the bowl temperature, and if so it seems to get significantly hotter than the Anvil. The designs are quite different, and "signature" is subjective. And I looked for an objective measure (i.e. the degree of roasting in the absence of any convection).

I do enjoy your point of view.

 

[Whiff]

I have all 3 sizes bowls. Since I got the WPA, I only use the half bowl with a wide-open bubbler (no percolator etc).
This provides maximum efficacy with very thick vapor for the quantity used (.05), RTL of course.
If I stop drawing, I must remove the Anvil and then clear the bubbler, if any vapor is left.
If I redraw (from the half bowl) without removing the Anvil from the bubbler, this will lead to an unavoidable (100%) combustion, maybe due to small load combined with RTL and powerful draw.
The best strategy is to draw slowly till the vapor in the bubbler is thinning and then remove WPA from bubbler.

The amount of vapour from a half chamber is remarkable, I do find the half chamber to run hotter so I usually heat her in the trench above the battery or the copper line on the oven. That should help give the same estratto/hit as a full chamber thermal battery heat up tech.

 

[VapingYogi]

there's finally and update on the Forge https://www.instagram.com/p/C0IRxc2R28j/

 

[Sublim8]

I gotta say that I'm really loving this device (WPA + USA)
Currently at month 5

Used it almost everyday.
Tried it a couple of times with wand and smaller torches but I absolutely love RTL.

I have one question for the experts:
What's the difference in airflow between WPA and USA?
WPA is completely closed, right?

 

[Duba]

WPA is completely closed, right?

I'd say the opposite. I don't have the Usa so i can't compare them for you

 

[letter never sent]

I gotta say that I'm really loving this device (WPA + USA)
Currently at month 5

Used it almost everyday.
Tried it a couple of times with wand and smaller torches but I absolutely love RTL.

I have one question for the experts:
What's the difference in airflow between WPA and USA?
WPA is completely closed, right?

WPA is fully open with no airflow adjustment. The USA has fully adjustable airflow.

 

[VapingYogi]

Anyone have any thoughts on the new Anvil Oven?
Or the Forge?

Instagram

www.instagram.com

 

[letter never sent]

Anyone have any thoughts on the new Anvil Oven?
Or the Forge?

Instagram

www.instagram.com

Haven’t had a chance to check out Whiff’s streams. Will be interested to see what the deal is with this new oven.

 

[VapingYogi]

Haven’t had a chance to check out Whiff’s streams. Will be interested to see what the deal is with this new oven.

There seems to be some interesting ideas with the new Oven and the Forge combined...

Whiff talks about being able to heat it one way for a Convection heavy experience, or another for a Conduction heavy experience, just based on the settings on the Forge.

It also looks like the heat retention is longer than the duracore, even whiff looked surprised a couple of times with how long he was drawing on the device before he needed to stop - which was before the vapour had run out - but without being able to see side by side its hard to tell.

I only got a Duracore in August lol having been using a Coppercore before hand and there's already a new one... always the way

 

[Petetbay]

Will be interested to see what the deal is with this new oven.

Looks like they added more copper as the middle part definitely been expanded hopefully allowing it to store more heat, that’s a good thing and might help more with IH.

 

[seki]

Haven’t had a chance to check out Whiff’s streams. Will be interested to see what the deal is with this new oven.

@Whiff mentioned this on Discord today:

It's the new Buddha oven with some extra mass in the center. I've been testing it out with the torch for the last 6 months and works amazing with the IH.

No more copper was added it's just stainless steel added to the center

Given that copper isn't very good with respect to induction heating I'd guess that's why the added mass is stainless steel.

 

[Whiff]

There seems to be some interesting ideas with the new Oven and the Forge combined...

Whiff talks about being able to heat it one way for a Convection heavy experience, or another for a Conduction heavy experience, just based on the settings on the Forge.

It also looks like the heat retention is longer than the duracore, even whiff looked surprised a couple of times with how long he was drawing on the device before he needed to stop - which was before the vapour had run out - but without being able to see side by side its hard to tell.

I only got a Duracore in August lol having been using a Coppercore before hand and there's already a new one... always the way

I have been testing the new Buddha oven with torch for the last 6 months and it's does help to retain some heat. I was really surprised with how well the Forge was working. It definitely makes the Anvil a bigger hitter and more efficient.

These last few days I have been chuckong out clouds like they are nothing. I'm going to try and get a simple quick video posted on IG so people don't have to sit through a whole live

 

[VapingYogi]

I have been testing the new Buddha oven with torch for the last 6 months and it's does help to retain some heat. I was really surprised with how well the Forge was working. It definitely makes the Anvil a bigger hitter and more efficient.

These last few days I have been chuckong out clouds like they are nothing. I'm going to try and get a simple quick video posted on IG so people don't have to sit through a whole live

was watching your stream (friend of aussiefriendlybuds) it looked like the added stainless increased the heat retention a lot

 

[VapingYogi]

I have been testing the new Buddha oven with torch for the last 6 months and it's does help to retain some heat. I was really surprised with how well the Forge was working. It definitely makes the Anvil a bigger hitter and more efficient.

These last few days I have been chuckong out clouds like they are nothing. I'm going to try and get a simple quick video posted on IG so people don't have to sit through a whole live

Just out of curiosity do you know anything about the release plan for the Buddha?
I understand the early Forge releases are going to be local to Vestratto (in the local area/country) to be able to manage bugs or problems pick up when users get it into there hands but as you mentioned testing the Buddha for 6 months I wondered if you knew abut the plans for the new oven?

 

[Old_muel]

Hmm pretty keen to hear of any news w the forge but I don't do insta, anyone feel like summarizing what the latest is? Ie any new estimates of public release/when we might be able to get hold of one?

 

[VapingYogi]

Hmm pretty keen to hear of any news w the forge but I don't do insta, anyone feel like summarizing what the latest is? Ie any new estimates of public release/when we might be able to get hold of one?

John said don't expect the Forge to be available internationally until next year, the Initial release of the Forge is going to be local so they can easily manage post release issues if there are any.

Its an impressive Induction Heater but I'll let @Whiff explain it, I mean, other than talking to John briefly - everything I know I saw on his stream

 

[mixchu69]

Does Vestratto have any US suppliers? I have the WPA kit but was thinking about getting the stem and adapter.

Anybody have stem recommendations for cooling? Is the vestratto stem the best for the anvil?

 

[mephisto]

Aezhenn made a custom stem that I use with the Anvil wpa. Top notch fit and function.

 

[Comfortably Numb]

The Anvil stem is very functional and made well....with the integrated stem you can if you choose install 2 of the spiral filters which helps to a small degree for cooling as well as the XL mouthpiece to a small degree but is a must in my opinion as it provides a better balanced stem. I dont have any other stems....There are cooling stems mostly designed for Dynavaps. You should take in consideration that the Anvil generates much more heat than Dynavaps....and then there is the cleaning to take into consideration.
I would not be without it.

As for US suppliers...not at the moment...Sneaky Pete shows a couple of things on his website but never in stock...and not the things you need to make a stem.

Order from Vestratto.....use Whiff10 for discount....this will help swallow the $25 shipping fee they charge. This is the way...cheap...
Order the USA adapter at the same time so you can use other stems if you desire...it would be easy to sell if you dont use it.

 

[VapingYogi]

Does Vestratto have any US suppliers? I have the WPA kit but was thinking about getting the stem and adapter.

Anybody have stem recommendations for cooling? Is the vestratto stem the best for the anvil?

I have tried the Revolve, Simrell MVS and the Tempest stem and while they all increase cooling in that you can add cool air into the system through the airport I prefer the Anvil stem for the Anvil (with the XL mouthpiece) as it just handles better with the weight of the oven

 

[Duba]

Is the vestratto stem the best for the anvil?

i'm also using the Vestratto stem with Xl mouthpiece, 2 mini spirals (vestratto) and 1 more spiral from Dynabox (in 3mm diameter) in the integrated stem. This is my favorite way to use the Anvil.

 

[Custom Flower Hardware]

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