Anvil by Vestratto

alex91

Well-Known Member
I’d like to keep only one flytrap when using the XL MP. Do you think it’d be better to keep the one in the body or in the mouthpiece?
 
alex91,

Knewt

Well-Known Member
I’d like to keep only one flytrap when using the XL MP. Do you think it’d be better to keep the one in the body or in the mouthpiece?
The body flytrap does more work than the mouth piece one, but it’s also a tiny bit more difficult to get to. So I think it would depend on what results you are seeking.
 
Knewt,
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Stu

Maconheiro
Staff member
the supreme/elev8r/tubo/tiny/logs use convection, herb chamber is not too close to the heater, there's no direct or almost direct heating (think about the elev8r, the bowl is set much far from the heater..)
The Supreme actually heats up the stem quite a bit, so I'd leave it off that list. Here's a temp slope chart I made a while back of the Supreme.

sv3-temp-test-annotated.jpg


To bring this post back on topic: I'd wager that the Anvil's temp slope chart is similar to the Supreme's. :2c:

:peace:
 

fiixed

Active Member
The body flytrap does more work than the mouth piece one, but it’s also a tiny bit more difficult to get to. So I think it would depend on what results you are seeking.
I didn't know you could put a spiral filter in both the main stem and the XL mouthpiece? I'm slowly getting through all the posts but I'm only on page 68 of 159...
 
fiixed,

Knewt

Well-Known Member
I didn't know you could put a spiral filter in both the main stem and the XL mouthpiece? I'm slowly getting through all the posts but I'm only on page 68 of 159...
The XL mouthpiece comes with a flytrap. I have left mine in because it doesn’t reduce the flow or the flavor that I can tell. I also use my XL mouthpiece in the 14 mm joint on my bong.
 
Knewt,

fiixed

Active Member
The XL mouthpiece comes with a flytrap. I have left mine in because it doesn’t reduce the flow or the flavor that I can tell. I also use my XL mouthpiece in the 14 mm joint on my bong.
I got my anvil second-hand, but it did come with an XL mouthpiece and an extra spiral cooler; I thought the extra spiral cooler was just a spare lol.
 
fiixed,

GoldenBud

Well-Known Member
The Supreme actually heats up the stem quite a bit, so I'd leave it off that list. Here's a temp slope chart I made a while back of the Supreme.

sv3-temp-test-annotated.jpg


To bring this post back on topic: I'd wager that the Anvil's temp slope chart is similar to the Supreme's. :2c:

:peace:
I spend some time thinking,
Anvil mainly based on the equation:
q=-k*dt/dr

Supreme is based on the equation:
q=u*a*dt

we know the k of copper as 380+- , there's some ss/ti so need to see how to recalculate it, initial temp is room temp, we need the second temp.....
for the supreme we know that the A (more or less) we know the q is much higher than the anvil

but i dunno how to calculate Q and U - overall heat transfer coefficient... once we find these, we can calculate the Temp of the heater, "Temp2" for the dt....

edit: we can check the T2 with some thermometer i think? right after the click
gonna be interesting
 
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My_50p_worth

Well-Known Member
On the topic of “working out” the anvil using material science - some times things simply do not work or appear as they “should” on paper for whatever reason.

The only thing I’d really consider an objective answer is testing on the Anvil itself with the relevant equipment- it would settle the copper fumes debate too

I find that a simple real world test is such: Heat the Anvil and then do not draw on it, let it cool down and click then check the AVB.

Conduction? A little, but not what you’d expect if the Anvil is driven by conduction vaporisation. If that was the case it would happen independently of drawing on it like my VM or DV which are very obviously conduction vapes


Maybe I’m talking out of my ass, though. I just don’t see the conduction argument in real world use, or more specifically the idea that the Anvil is a conduction biased hybrid
 

guyonthecouch

Well-Known Member
Not sure how to factor it in but there's got to be some radiation happening. My guess is majority convection heat(based on airflow design), with more radiation than conduction. So many variables to consider as there's many ways/locations to heat the chamber and thermal reservoir.
 

Cheebsy

Organicly inVerted
I find that a simple real world test is such: Heat the Anvil and then do not draw on it, let it cool down and click then check the AVB.
That's been done earlier in the thread. It clearly displayed plenty of conduction cooking but John argued, quite rightly I'd say, that it's not an effective test because that's not how the anvil is used. I would expect the chamber to heat up partly by conduction, through those thermal bridges, but more by radiation, then the load is subjected to some conduction from the hot chamber walls that also get heated up by the convection air flow during a draw.
 

Duba

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
It seems to me that John explained elsewhere (I don't remember where) that when you heat the Anvil, there is a little bit of conduction, just enough for the herb to be decarboxilized (around 90/100°c).
Thus, when you inhale, the plant is so to speak ready to let explode all its wealth. It's probably one of the keys of the incredible performances of extraction of the Anvil.
So,perhaps it's a hybrid vape with dominant convection?
 

coolbreeze

Well-Known Member
That's been done earlier in the thread. It clearly displayed plenty of conduction cooking but John argued, quite rightly I'd say, that it's not an effective test because that's not how the anvil is used. I would expect the chamber to heat up partly by conduction, through those thermal bridges, but more by radiation, then the load is subjected to some conduction from the hot chamber walls that also get heated up by the convection air flow during a draw.
Ah, this all makes sense. So there would be some amount less conduction under use because you wouldn't let the herbs sit and roast in the convective heat from the outer walls?
It seems to me that John explained elsewhere (I don't remember where) that when you heat the Anvil, there is a little bit of conduction, just enough for the herb to be decarboxilized (around 90/100°c).
Thus, when you inhale, the plant is so to speak ready to let explode all its wealth. It's probably one of the keys of the incredible performances of extraction of the Anvil.
So,perhaps it's a hybrid vape with dominant convection?
This makes sense to me, as well. I remember that illustration, but I guess the degree of conduction slipped by as unremarkable, though it actually appears to be key to the function, per your understanding.
 
coolbreeze,
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My_50p_worth

Well-Known Member
So,perhaps it's a hybrid vape with dominant convection?

That’s what I’m arguing yes. I also think the FMJ makes a DV perform weirdly similarly, despite being known (correctly of course) as a conduction vape.

@Cheebsy

It’s not been the case so much for me, in terms of how much conduction cooking there is. I would argue it IS an effective test, IF it is conduction dominant as some believe. However I do agree that it is not effective IF the anvil is convection dominant ( which is my belief and the results my amateur science’ing have turned up)

I won’t comment too much about the radiation aspect as I’m not too clued in on that method. I’ll have to research it as maybe that’s the “missing link” that solves this conundrum and it ends up being your theory that is correct
 

Cheebsy

Organicly inVerted
So there would be some amount less conduction under use because you wouldn't let the herbs sit and roast in the convective heat from the outer walls?
Yeah, exactly, we don't let the load heat soak in normal use.

That claim of decarbing while you heat the battery is I think a little idealistic. If you decarb in an oven at ~100c it takes about 40 mins. Decarbing can take much less time, but it requires higher temperatures. There is no way that in those few seconds of heating and preparing for your draw it's getting any effective decarb imo, especially if it's not heating by conduction as the whole thermal bridge design is aiming to slow that process down.

Edited to add I haven't recieved my anvil yet so there's that caveat lol, this is just contemplation on my part right now.
 

My_50p_worth

Well-Known Member
If the bowl is already 300-350 degrees at the click, how could it possibly be convection dominant?

Is it though? I suppose we’d know the answer by removing the bowl on click and testing the temp, that’s not too hard to do either.

AFAIK those breaks cut into the bowl do fairly well to keep the heat in the clicker area (which obviously does need to hit temp to click) and have it slowly creep down to the actual “bowl” part. Maybe more so with the XL bowl? I do notice a more conductiony feeling with that one and there’s very obviously more routes for that heat to creep down


Where else does that heat then go? It doesn’t just vanish. It either has to make do with the slow creep or choose a new vessel with less resistance (the incoming air stream if you draw, the anvil and ambient air if you leave it sit)

Don’t forget the thermal battery is trying to pump more heat in as this is all happening, too.

The way I see it is such:

We heat the thermal battery, which rapidly passes heat up the “outer sleeve” and inner walls, that heat rapidly passes to the clickers, which then slowly creep heat down to the bowl through the tiny bits between the slits cut out. It’s like the path goes from a wide road to a narrow country lane deliberately to build up (heat) traffic, so to speak
 
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My_50p_worth

Well-Known Member
Just wanted to add a little something to the discussion we have going here.

I tried the “click and no hit” test again, this time with the XL bowl. Interestingly enough, the herb was noticeably darker compared to the .1 bowl.

Does seem that those cutouts work fairly well to keep the bowl cool

@Cheebsy

I’ve now got a much better understanding of heat radiation, and I think your theory lines up quite well with what I’m experiencing. I think heat radiating to the outside of the herb chamber would explain a fair bit of what’s going on here. I still maintain it is convection biased, but I certainly hadn’t considered this aspect.

I wonder how much heat radiates to this area, and for how long that heat can meaningfully produce vapour. I’d imagine it would take a minute to get going as the heat would slowly creep over there, and then taper off before the convection air goes below vaping temps?
 

Planck

believes in Dog
We vapers often consider conduction and radiation one and the same, though they are not the same. There has to be physical contact for conduction to occur.

Heat radiation (electromagnetic) is emitted according to Planck's law btw. :brow:
 

GoldenBud

Well-Known Member
Alternate perspective: If the bowl is already 300-350 degrees at the click, how could it possibly be convection dominant?
And it's a small device, the gap between the heater and the chamber is too closed.. The Supreme also supports 300-350F for a good hit but it's muuuch bigger device..

Although the Anvil taste is pretty good! Comparing to another almost 100% conduction device

@Planck you definitely have got a point here. Because the place where you heat is a bit lower than the chamber it has some kind of radiation IMHO and it's not a classic "Fourier" conduction case with layers. I think
 

invertedisdead

OG Baller
Is it though? I suppose we’d know the answer by removing the bowl on click and testing the temp, that’s not too hard to do either.

AFAIK those breaks cut into the bowl do fairly well to keep the heat in the clicker area (which obviously does need to hit temp to click) and have it slowly creep down to the actual “bowl” part. Maybe more so with the XL bowl? I do notice a more conductiony feeling with that one and there’s very obviously more routes for that heat to creep down


Where else does that heat then go? It doesn’t just vanish. It either has to make do with the slow creep or choose a new vessel with less resistance (the incoming air stream if you draw, the anvil and ambient air if you leave it sit)

Don’t forget the thermal battery is trying to pump more heat in as this is all happening, too.

The way I see it is such:

We heat the thermal battery, which rapidly passes heat up the “outer sleeve” and inner walls, that heat rapidly passes to the clickers, which then slowly creep heat down to the bowl through the tiny bits between the slits cut out. It’s like the path goes from a wide road to a narrow country lane deliberately to build up (heat) traffic, so to speak

Incoming air flows parallel between the interior stainless steel walls of the bowl and the oven.

Heat transferred from the interior wall into the airstream would be then further transferred to the bowls sidewalls, for the same reason - the thermal conductivity of stainless steel is 600x more conductive than air.

Plus the hard 90 degree right angle into the bowl will cause turbulence, which promotes heat transfer to the bowl. That’s another reason why the color of the bowl is darker at the thermal break / air inlets than the lower herb chamber.

I haven’t used an XL bowl, but most people seem to note an increased conduction feeling present - that makes sense as there is physically more surface area for conduction to occur. But with the bowl being physically longer, we’d have to ask how there’s more conduction occurring in the XL bowl if the thermal break was preventing the bowl from heating. IMHO either way it’s largely conduction, whether it comes from the threaded body itself, or incoming air being preheated and conducting into the sidewalls.

Realistically you can’t just float the bowl to bias for convection because it would be cooler in temperature, and it would just rob heat from the system until equilibrium is reached. This is largely the nature of any metal bowl in a convection vape, it’s why glass or wood are generally considered superior for true convection, as stainless steel transfers heat 1500x faster than glass, always resulting in increased conduction.

We vapers often consider conduction and radiation one and the same, though they are not the same. There has to be physical contact for conduction to occur.

Heat radiation (electromagnetic) is emitted according to Planck's law btw. :brow:

Also that IR from any sidewalls is emitted from a conducting body, so for considerable IR to be present there would have to be even more conduction. A shiny metal bowl would further reflect infrared radiation, rather than absorb.

And it's a small device, the gap between the heater and the chamber is too closed.. The Supreme also supports 300-350F for a good hit but it's muuuch bigger device..

Although the Anvil taste is pretty good! Comparing to another almost 100% conduction device

@Planck you definitely have got a point here. Because the place where you heat is a bit lower than the chamber it has some kind of radiation IMHO and it's not a classic "Fourier" conduction case with layers. I think

Yeah the Supreme is technically like two advanced vapes in one. Everyone focuses on the giant convection heat block but as you can see in Stu’s plot, it’s actually mostly conduction, for the same reasons as the anvil. Conductive bowl physically coupled to the heat source. I still stand by my premise that you would have to decrease conduction to increase convection. With the Supreme you can do that, either with a glass bowl, or by increasing the distance between the heat source and the herb, but you can’t really do either of those with the anvil.

:2c:
 
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alex91

Well-Known Member
With the Supreme you can do that, either with a glass bowl, or by increasing the distance between the heat source and the herb, but you can’t really do either of those with the anvil.

:2c:

On the Supreme, for convection hits, we would just heat the aluminum block all the way to temp and only then insert the bowl, instead of heating the block with the bowl already in.
 

fiixed

Active Member
is anything terribly bad going to happen if two of my three o-rings on the condenser have fallen off? I've ordered more o-rings from that o-ring store posted on here previously, but they haven't shipped yet.
 
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fiixed,

SillyNotMe

Well-Known Member
is anything terribly bad going to happen if two of my three o-rings on the condenser have fallen off? I've ordered more o-rings from that o-ring store posted on here a few days ago, but they haven't shipped yet.
Don’t push when you’re inserting and screwing down the chamber.
 
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