Adhesives, Insulation and Vape Safety

[happyTrails]

I am very pleased with what I have read today and just want to say that I think this is a great community. Not to be a UD fanboy, but I love my twig. Even more, I love Dave's response. Here is a guy who (while getting flame sprayed) generates a new product that addresses all material concerns (Vegan Dogs). Then he goes a mile further and offers to retro fit to all existing units to vegan standards at his expense for people with concerns. Very stand up move IMO and shows that he cares and wants to succeede.

MOTG, I hope you enjoy Dave's work as much as I do. Your post this morning made my day. Mod's words carry a lot of weight around here when it comes to opinions and people making informed decisions. It is great to see everyone moving in a positive direction.

Kum-by-ya and shit....

 

[Rick]

Hagbard Celine, Dave is correct. The ceramic "discs" you see at the top and bottom of our SS heatport are ceramic floor and wall tiles cut with a water jet. They are very stable in our use. We do not have the sheet on them but you can look up common floor and wall tiles for safety concerns. Perhaps a particle could fall off and get through a top air intake hole and into the heated air flow. I think that is a stretch but I suppose anything can happen. If a small particle of a floor tile in the airflow was to happen, I still can not figure out how it could get delivered to the user. We need to remember any air pulled through a log vape has the final job of coming up the center tube, past the heater and screen, then going through a semi packed load of well ground herb. Inhaling anything other than heated air/vapor is a tough stretch for me to even imagine, let alone make sense of. Particles are generally heavier than air and will stay on the bottom of the heatport. More on my thread later today.

 

[underdog]

@ MoTG - wow, that's great news Mom.. I'm so happy we can really work together on a project and see where it goes and I really, really appreciate you reaching out as you have. While I'm sure we'll do most of our collaborating via private message I think it would be fun to occasionally update the forum with tidbits during the 'journey' as well if possible. Anyways really happy we were able to mend fences and looking forward to working with you.

@ Alan - thanks for the info on the threading, makes good sense. I meant to ask if the threads are NC of NF as well? As far as the insulation goes it's all the same, off the same roll just cut and/or punched differently as needed. I snapped a quick picture to illustrate how the different shapes used are cut from the same strips since a picture explains things so much more easily than text.

@ Rick - glad to see I got it right on the ceramic Rick and thanks for confirming. I think floor/wall tiles is a pretty ingenious source of plate ceramic as well, always best in manufacturing when you can use an off the shelf (OTS) material/part source.

 

[charliedontsurf]

This thread has really come around, although I don't think it was ever necessarily out of line. Here we now have several amazing manufacturers publicly comparing notes and brainstorming, and that's just too cool.

I would love to see a low-cost log vape hit the market eventually. IIRC correctly I was very enthuiastic about the Bamboo Hi when it was first posted and I still think it's absolutely beautiful. If it requires less workmanship and cheaper materials, then I'd love to see them hit the market.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Hagbard Celine, Dave is correct. The ceramic "discs" you see at the top and bottom of our SS heatport are ceramic floor and wall tiles cut with a water jet. They are very stable in our use. We do not have the sheet on them but you can look up common floor and wall tiles for safety concerns. Perhaps a particle could fall off and get through a top air intake hole and into the heated air flow.

Thanks for the info Rick. So the hard ceramic disc is at the top and bottom of the heated core - do I have that right? But not in the heated air path?

Actually, I wasnt so concerned about a hard piece of ceramic or particle breaking off, but more along the lines of what happens to this material when it is heated to the sort of temps that it is routinely exposed to. In all fairness, do you have more info about what this exact material is and why we shouldnt be concerned about it when it gets subject to these sorts of temperatures? Again, I dont mean to throw stones or start any flaming again. But this bit of info from your own CRZ thread here on FC basically caused me to pass on one of your vapes that I was otherwise ready to buy. I have to guess that others may have done the same.

And Dave, I'm curious now if your ceramic 'fabric' is only at the bottom of your core? Or at the top as well like in the CRZ?

And to the users out there who were originally so concerned with this ceramic material, why the concern with the material in the UD but never a mention of it in the CRZ? I'm pretty sure some of the folks who were expressing so much concern over the UD originally are/were CRZ enthusiasts. I'd like to know what their thoughts are?

 

[momofthegoons]

And to the users out there who were originally so concerned with this ceramic material, why the concern with the material in the UD but never a mention of it in the CRZ?

I guess since I'm the OP and have a CRZ, I should probably answer this question.

My original concerns regarding the insulation material in the UD arose from the burnt spots and deterioration. I was concerned about fumes. This material is a different medium of ceramic than the tile that is used in the CRZ. I have not seen any burnt spots on any of my CRZ's ceramic rings and it did not occur to me that it would have the same problem. Ceramic tiles are exposed to a much higher heat when they are being fired than they are exposed to in a CRZ. Most kilns, at the midpoint of a run of tiles, will be around 2500 degrees. I didn't have any concerns regarding the tile.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Fair enough, mom. But I guess the obvious thoughts to follow up that would be concerns very similar to other things already brought up. Just because a material is subject to extreme conditions as part of the curing or manufacturing process doesnt necessarily correlate to how safe it is when you are using it (or breathing through it) in a similarly harsh environment.

 

[Alan]

Thanks for the photo Dave. They do show much more than words. So the strip of insulation must wrap around the core and then the ring of insulation goes on top?

The thread TPI for the power socket is probably finer than NF. I used a thread gauge to measure the ones I am using so I would know which tap to buy. It will be a special size. I can't guarantee that I am using the same size that you use. Always best to confirm with what you have. You can also measure the number of threads in a half inch and double that. Happy tapping.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

what happens to this material [ceramic] when it is heated to the sort of temps that it is routinely exposed to

safer than borosilicate glass: 820°C for glass vs 1300°C for ceramic.

i routinely run my glass vape at 190°C or there abouts

 

[underdog]

@ Alan - Cool, thanks for the added info on the threads and tapping.. always interests me to see the sizes that manufacturers (the factory, not you) choose to use on their stuff since it's not always easy to see why they choose what they do.

The insulation pic has a bit of everything in it. The donut shaped piece would be used in an older generation piece like the one MoTG got and sits around the base of the core acting as a gasket between the metal and wood. In those models there isn't any insulation on the sides of the core so that's it.

For the newer, more insulated core there are two pieces used, one is the smaller disk and the other the wider strip. The wide strip is wrapped around the core so it covers the sides and is hemmed in top and bottom by stainless rings, the top ring is visible when looking at the top of a newer model UD. The disk of insulation is used at the bottom of the core between the metal and wood like the donut in the first example but sitting underneath the core rather than slipped around it. The small strip was just a random cut off piece that isn't used for anything.

 

[Rick]

I broke down a Zap I have been using in the shop for a few months yesterday as it was cracked and time to put the core in a new shell. I'll get pics later today as we are busy on something else this AM for several hours.
It was nice to see. Wood and tile insulators look as new as the day I made the piece.
This one is interesting because I ran it at 14+ volts continuously for months.
The heat produced in the Zap does not even phase the tile insulators.

As for missing sales due to safety concerns, that will always happen with some folks. Just the way it is.

 

[Vicki]

I look forward to seeing it, Rick!

 

[Rick]

Finally back. Sorry (again) for the delays. Company has returned for a final visit before heading back home. We are having a great time doing alot of nothing. Lots of fun but takes away from my Zapville chores.Tomorrow we will be back to normal around here.
This is a Maple CRZ that was turned cross grain as you can see. I could not split it vertically with the grain. It was used 24/7 here in the shop for a few months. I replaced it for a customer due to a lateral crack. Made a good shop Zap. I have had it at 14 volts or above continuously. If you look real close, you can see the slightly darker ring in the wood about 3/8" down from the top lip of the wood. That is the only SS contact with the wood(same at the bottom of the heatport). That is where the top SS ring of the heatport rests below the top tile insulator. Once the Zap is heated thoroughly, the fit between the SS and the wood gets tighter. When removing a heatport, I often have to really bang hard to get anything to move as it is form fitted to the wood. The tile insulator is broken because I broke it to get it out. I had to because the fit was so tight in the wood. Reports of rattling are less than a handful since mid Sept 2011. The heatport from this Zap is already re-installed in Pats last Zap which I made in the last couple days. Ambrosia Maple, our best piece

 

[u bwade wunner]

Thank you so much to Mom and especially Dave for reaching agreement and turning this thread full circle.And thanks to all the FC members and especially the manufacturers who contributed to make this thread what it is.

I rarely see this sort of completion in my day to day life between people.folks find it much easier to hold a grudge,and carry that grudge and ill feeling onwards.holding a grudge carries a heavy price and ultimately issues further down the track. the outcome of this thread has surpassed all my wildest possibilities.completion and friendship.The vegan cores sound amazing Dave.One love FC.

I am celebrating all weekend.thank you all.

 

[underdog]

Grudges? Grudges?! We don't need no stinking grudges! (ah I crack myself up)

Seriously though, we don't. I'm super-thrilled to be able to mend fences with MoTG and work on making something awesome.

One love indeed.

 

[Zangano Cruel]

I still want to try to make a HI using a hemp stalk or maybe a corn cob. A bamboo pole works very well.

The material should have a thermal conductivity at least as low as wood.

What about real cork?? Too fragile??
Lightweight for sure...

 

[Alan]

Natural cork certainly does have a low thermal conductivity. It should hold up pretty well. Now the challenge to find some cork the correct size. Maybe I will just have to make a vaporizer from a wine cork.

Here is a material that should work well. It is called AAC.

http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/consumer&id=8134967

Would love to see more houses built with it. May prevent homes from being destroyed by wild fires.

 

[Puffers]

I want a canna-stalk HI where do i get on the wait list.......?? Lol

 

[Alan]

I want a canna-stalk HI where do i get on the wait list.......?? Lol

I have to find a suitable size canna stalk first.

There is a material called Burl Cork which is supposed to be stronger and heavier than regular cork. It is supposed to turnable like wood. Might be another material option.

 

[Zangano Cruel]

I have to find a suitable size canna stalk first.

There is a material called Burl Cork which is supposed to be stronger and heavier than regular cork. It is supposed to turnable like wood. Might be another material option.

Looks cool!!!! http://www.mudhole.com/Cork/Exotic-Burl-Cork-Blocks

 

[Alan]

Looks cool!!!! http://www.mudhole.com/Cork/Exotic-Burl-Cork-Blocks

From what I have read there are two kinds of burl cork. Natural and man made by gluing bits of cork together. I would opt for the natural. No sense using glue when you don't need to.

 

[J.R.R.Tokin']

Hi guys,

This thread made me go back to the drawing board and try to come up with a closed core design with no bonding. This is what I came up with. I would love some feedback about the use of copper at the bottom of the path.

I have tried looking up issues with copper used in this fashion but haven't come up with anything that's dissuading me from using it. What do y'all think - is it an issue?

 

[darkrom]

Why copper over stainless steel?

 

[hazy]

I think copper is a great material. There are no health issues with it, and it has been used in water pipes for decades. It should be easier to form a seal than with stainless steel.

 

[stickstones]

What is copper? Is it an alloy like brass, or an element? It's definitely easy to work with as the piping is very flexible. I'm not sure that I would classify it as safe, however, based on its use in water piping. My old house had copper tubing originally and it had to be replaced thirty years later because it was getting pinhole leaks everywhere. This is just from the wear and tear of water over time. I have no idea what could happen when it is heated, but I would have to give it some serious research and consideration before deciding to use it in a vape.