"Addicted" because you vape every day?

[EverythingsHazy]

Ok, great!

Noooooo!!!!

Lmao!

EverythingsHazy, I totally owe you an apology. I was out of line and insulting, and I'm deeply ashamed of myself. I should have simply responded by trying to clarify what I meant.

For me personally, Cannabis has helped so much more than the SSRIs that I've taken since the 90s. When I began growing my own, I developed a completely different relationship with Cannabis that kind of made her holy to me. I made and took strong Cannabis tincture for the first time last year (I'm a THC person myself, but I made sure to grow strains with good portions of CBD as well), and it opened up an entirely different space inside my being: it really was like walking out of a concrete jungle into an open meadow in the mountains of Montana. I became far less self-critical and as my self-tolerance increased, so did my tolerance and patience with others. I'm a professor at a small HBCU, my students are low skills, impoverished, and high-need, and it's a lot of pressure sometimes. Ah, so is life: a lot of pressure.

So since the fall of 2017, this decrease in anx./depressn has taken place for me. I would take the tincture early in the morning (like around 4) so as to get through the exquisite high long before I had to go to work. And then I'd be chill for the rest of the work day.

So my personal experience: I'm intending to experiment with tapering off the SSRI, which wouldn't it be wonderful if it didn't make any difference. But I need my daily Cannabis as a spiritual sacrament and as medicine for my "nerves"; I guess I'm a proud addict...

Again: please pardon my rudeness: I fked up there.

Apology accepted, man. It's a touchy topic, so I get that emotions can flare. No hard feelings, here.

I'm glad that Cannabis has been working well for you, and that you are able to get some relief from mental health issues (anxiety/depression). Nobody should have to suffer through those without some help.

 

[uncanni]

Ditto on that. I think SSRIs & SNRIs have their place - it's often a question of trial and error though, and they have little effect (IMHO) if not accompanied by some kind of talk therapy. Also, I can testify that benzodiazepines of all varieties are shockingly addictive and ineffective except for very short term use. I have tapered off valium and it is the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life.

The tricker area is around how to get relief from anxiety/intrusive thoughts/rumination and I believe cannabis can equally fuel or calm this condition. For me, at first I was tense and anxious about using weed and would often become more anxious, even paranoic. However, now it is almost second nature to me and I am completely open (at least around family/friends).... But I had to become habituated to using cannabis in order to benefit mentally from it. I would contend that habituated is very different from addicted.

Excellent point, Ricardo!!! I've been thinking for a while about writing a little essay on what it means to learn how to get high, but your word is more precise: habituated. It is certainly not the same as tolerance, because I think that the more habituated--and expert in a sense--one becomes, the better the high becomes. That's certainly true in my case. Growing my own creates a very special relationship with the plant I cultivate and the medicine she gifts me.

I have often thought that those really special highs--like first thing in the morning when it's still dark out--are like surfing a huge wave, and once you learn how to, you never crash and burn, like you and the wave are one. I have definitely learned to get high only with the right people and in the right places.

 

[fernand]

But "Getting high" means discontinuity from steady-state.

-- Can't say I like this concept. At all.

Pull out your crutches only on Sundays?

Microdosing is all about continuity.

 

[analytika]

Microdosing is all about continuity.

Tell us more.

 

[fernand]

Tell us more.

I want to be repaired. If not permanently, then at least continuously. Not jerked around. Not confused or distracted. None of this 0-60 engine-revving. No slamma da brakes. Solid cruising.

Uncle Bobby was an episodic drunk, exuberant, fun but choppy in affect. Uncle Rama was a chronic, applying correction gently, but steadily, from a little hip flask that he carried. He'd refill it with good cognac every morning, or whenever the rooster crowed. He was never legally drunk. And never obnoxiously sober. We can do way better than cognac, but I can certainly relate more to the Uncle Rama way. No overshoot, no undershoot, no parachute.

 

[Ramahs]

Ever watch people become dependent on 12 step voodoo?

Or EST. Or Scientology, or being so hooked on BS as to
go live in a jungle hell with a madman and drink Kool-aid
laced with benzos and cyanide on command? Or hang out
at indoctrination sessions where they teach that the world
was created 6000 years ago, so people must have lived
with dinosaurs like Fred Flintstone ? Ever watch these
people try to withdraw from their herd? Or give up that
constant confirmation by their social media "friends" who
think just like them ?

I spent 13-years of my life growing up in a cult, so I know exactly how it happens.

But yeah, After a possession charge many years ago, Part of my probation (10-years total) required to go to NA or AA meetings twice a week for three or four years. I found those meetings so fucking miserable that I never wanted to get high and/or drink more than after walking out of one of those 12-step meetings.

It's another cult.

 

[uncanni]

Part of my probation (10-years total) required to go to NA or AA meetings twice a week for three or four years. I found those meetings so fucking miserable that I never wanted to get high and/or drink more than after walking out of one of those 12-step meetings.
It's another cult.

That is so funny!! In some places like So. CA the meetings were pretty good, but in more conservative regions where I've lived, those meetings reminded me of Stalinist Soviet Union: you either toed the line dictated by the old timers or folks got mighty upset. There was an insane amount of pressure to conform. A groupthink mentality that made it very easy for me realize that it wasn't healthy for me. (Not speaking for anyone else.)

@fernand There are a lot of high-functioning addicts and alcoholics out there, but I think there's always an expiration date with booze and opioids. This, fortunately, isn't true for Cannabis: the consumer tailors to his/her own needs. I can be very high and very productive in research and writing. My best friend vapes throughout the day every day, and it takes perfect care of his ADHD; he no longer uses ritalin. So cool. It's truly the medicine that makes the user feel good without guilt.

 

[ClearBlueLou]

Doctor Johns Hopkins was a morphine addict most of his adult and professional life - during which he built a major name for himself, founded Johns Hopkins Hospital (eventually, Johns Hopkins University). FYI.

 

[hibeam]

the high is a crucial part of the medicinal impact for me. I understand that it isn't for everyone.

@analytika talks about a bad baseline. For me the "high" is relative to my baseline, but an extra warm fuzzy hug out of the blue when my spirits are so prone to crashing from a long past of intractable pain and medical neglect, is more therapeutic than the accompanying pain relief.

I would contend that habituated is very different from addicted.

Bingo. I get the warm fuzzy hug and a light case of the happies but certainly my tolerance now prevents me from the temporary mania that was my high when I first started. I'm successfully habituated.

@fernand I live by many 12 step slogans, except the "keep coming back it works"one. Cannabis relieves my migraine etc., and AA/NA made my health worse. People gotta cling to each other though ... and at times a meeting sure beats some of the abyss of lonely that being sick can cause. Sigh.

 

[uncanni]

@analytika Please where can I read about "bad baseline"??? I'm curious.

Yes, I'm habituated, but I'm not tolerant--at least not so far, and I vape every day. I had about an 8 week break in June and July after some surgery, which was not fun. I missed my Cannabis a lot, and used a very few lorazapams when the post-surgery anxiety was severe. But in the end, the entire ordeal was well worth it, and I learned a lot. But man, when I began habituating again to Cannabis, I had to go slow at first!! Now I'm totally back to my old tricks...

 

[analytika]

@analytika Please where can I read about "bad baseline"??? I'm curious.

Yes, I'm habituated, but I'm not tolerant--at least not so far, and I vape every day. I had about an 8 week break in June and July after some surgery, which was not fun. I missed my Cannabis a lot, and used a very few lorazapams when the post-surgery anxiety was severe. But in the end, the entire ordeal was well worth it, and I learned a lot. But man, when I began habituating again to Cannabis, I had to go slow at first!! Now I'm totally back to my old tricks...

Well, you could start by reading my actual postings to the thread, which never used that expression.

 

[uncanni]

Well, you could start by reading my actual postings to the thread, which never used that expression.

Someone else used that term; I've never heard of it before.

 

[hibeam]

Someone else used that term; I've never heard of it before.

I made it up out of the relative nature of "baseline" that I inferred from the discussion here, so nuttin' to lookup.

 

[nosmoking]

I made it up out of the relative nature of "baseline" that I inferred from the discussion here, so nuttin' to lookup.

Well you could elaborate more on what you meant as far as a "bad baseline" or even explained what bothered you in certain posts rather than put words in another users mouth that were not even used.

As for now, I have no clue what your post means and I am sure others are just as confused. What is this baseline you speak of? Is it your baseline of high or pain or tolerance or homeostasis?

 

[hibeam]

homeostasis, which is a total misnomer because there is nothing stasis about it ... bad for me ... and my humblest apologies for appearing to put words in people's mouths!

 

[analytika]

This was my take:

For many, stress, anxiety, depression and insomnia are the baseline. It may be congenital, or the result of traumatic stress that's done permanent damage. Ordinary life is not "boring". It approaches agony.

In quite a number of cases, cannabis can move the dial.

Without medication, it's like trying to alter the orbit of a planet with the power of positive thinking.

Some thoughtfully advocate talk therapy and CBT over any medication. (easily $10K out of pocket these days just to get started).

Well you could elaborate more on what you meant as far as a "bad baseline" or even explained what bothered you in certain posts rather than put words in another users mouth that were not even used.

As for now, I have no clue what your post means and I am sure others are just as confused. What is this baseline you speak of? Is it your baseline of high or pain or tolerance or homeostasis?

 

[uncanni]

Ok analytica, that's all you had to say!!! Jeez, what a mountain out of a molehill!!

I think you're basically characterizing Developmental Trauma Disorder, for those of us who had pretty wretched childhoods. Cannabis--and CBD--open a space in my mind where I no longer anticipate something horrible around the corner so much of the time. I step into that open pasture, that open space of self-acceptance, and out of the insane space of the post-traumatic stress disorder, which has a lot of overlaps with the disorder I mentioned above. As I've written more than once, it allows me to be off, rather than on, the defensive with others, so I have more patience and tolerance most of the time. I can practice integrity, which was out of the picture as I grew up.

Cannabis turns off all the static, and I can hear myself. I can practice patience, tolerance, compassion so much better. It's so worth it for me to keep my ECS saturated with the gifts my plants provide.

 

[fernand]

Doctor Johns Hopkins was a morphine addict most of his adult and professional life - during which he built a major name for himself, founded Johns Hopkins Hospital (eventually, Johns Hopkins University). FYI.

I think it was Dr William Halsted you had in mind. He co-founded Johns Hopkins Hospital and was sort of the Sherlock Holmes of medicine. Hopkins was the money man.

 

[ClearBlueLou]

Could well be: it’s close to 50 years since I read the reference.

 

[Cannabiker]

https://news.weedmaps.com/2019/01/what-is-cannabis-use-disorder-and-how-can-you-recover-from-it/

With stories on Cannabis Use Disorder trending high in the weed and the mainstream media, I've been looking at my own life in light of the CUD criteria. What strikes me most is how many of the points on the list which would apply to me are exacerbated by prohibition, which isn't a problem for me any longer.

For instance, you're supposed to ask yourself if you spend an inordinate amount of time searching for weed. Sure, ten years ago I did, when I lived in Utah and dealt with people who lived on Dope Dealer Standard Time. Now I live in Oregon, and I get to grow four plants a season, so I don't have to leave the house to find weed. And if I do run out, the only time I'll waste is in deciding which of the eight dispensaries (in a town of 50,000) I should visit.

The same goes with problems with interpersonal connections. That was definitely more of an issue when weed was so much more stigmatized, and I lived in a much more conservative place. And the problems were other people's problems--they had distorted views of cannabis use.

Some of the others are pretty dodgy, like having strong cravings for weed. Yes, I have that. Then I vape some, and I develop strong cravings for recreational or social activities. Those are two points on the list that pretty much cancel each other out for me.

The most paradoxical point of the list is tolerance. Yes, that's an indicator I use cannabis regularly. It also means that cannabis use is a gentle tweak to my mood, not a major mind-altering experience. I like it that way.

Am I justifying or denying? Probably. But I'm not really denying my own CUD, rather, I'm denying that CUD is a serious public health risk.

 

[uncanni]

Cannabis Use Disorder, as defined by the DSM-5: hilarious!!! Now it's a disorder like Antisocial Personality Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder. I want to know who are the idiots that come up with the criteria.

Symptoms include:

• bloodshot eyes. I'm not even going to comment on this one.
• • Taking more cannabis than was intended. Guilty.
  • Difficulty controlling or cutting down cannabis use
  • Spending a lot of time on cannabis use. Well, I do spend a lot of time in the grow room.
  • Craving cannabis. So, so guilty.
  • Problems at work, school, and home as a result of cannabis use. Not guilty; Cannabis actually makes all that stuff better.
  • Continuing to use cannabis despite social or relationship problems. Not guilty: Cannabis helps me to stay away from the wrong people.
  • Giving up or reducing other activities in favor of cannabis. Guilty: I quit doing various things that used to make me miserable and became truer to myself.
  • Taking cannabis in high-risk situations.
  • Continuing to use cannabis despite physical or psychological problems. Quite the opposite: it has alleviated stress and pain.
  • Tolerance to cannabis
  • Withdrawal when discontinuing cannabis.

 

[ClearBlueLou]

“Withdrawal when discontinuing cannabis”

There have many bullshit ‘symptoms’ laid out over the decades, and this is most of them.
They are also “classic Anslinger”.

I can’t count the number of times I’ve run out, couldn’t get high, and *didn’t* freak out.
I feel very safe saying NONE.

I have quit cannabis for as long as 5 years. No withdrawal, no psychological acting-out, no aberrant behavior.
No ‘symptoms’ of any kind...unless you want to count more frequent illness after 6 months off, or the increase in joint pain, or the decrease in general flexibility. (FTR, NSAIDs are not a replacement)

Not using cannabis is really just like not doing *anything*: you don’t do it. You don’t dialogue with the angels of your nature, you don’t climb the wall in frustration and deprivation, you don’t pine for the good old days when.... Having your body complain loudly really is its own issue. Whatcha gonna do???

 

[BabyFacedFinster]

• • Craving cannabis.
  • Taking cannabis in high-risk situations.
  • Withdrawal when discontinuing cannabis. Does withdrawal mean jonesing? Like when you used to have to scrape your bowls?

 

[ClearBlueLou]

Withdrawal would be a disruptive physiological reaction to cessation, often causing vomiting, sleeplessness, delusions, hallucinations, and/or significant physical discomfort.

Withdrawal can last days or weeks, and persons undergoing withdrawal are typically confined, either in a jail or in a treatment facility, to prevent them from injuring themselves and others.

The slang term ‘jonesing’ is in reference to the craving that precedes withdrawal, ‘Mr. Jones’ being used by addicts to refer to their habits, 1950s USA with perhaps some bleeding into the preceding and succeeding decades.

 

[Madri-Gal]

“Withdrawal when discontinuing cannabis”

There have many bullshit ‘symptoms’ laid out over the decades, and this is most of them.
They are also “classic Anslinger”.

I can’t count the number of times I’ve run out, couldn’t get high, and *didn’t* freak out.
I feel very safe saying NONE.

I have quit cannabis for as long as 5 years. No withdrawal, no psychological acting-out, no aberrant behavior.
No ‘symptoms’ of any kind...unless you want to count more frequent illness after 6 months off, or the increase in joint pain, or the decrease in general flexibility. (FTR, NSAIDs are not a replacement)

Not using cannabis is really just like not doing *anything*: you don’t do it. You don’t dialogue with the angels of your nature, you don’t climb the wall in frustration and deprivation, you don’t pine for the good old days when.... Having your body complain loudly really is its own issue. Whatcha gonna do???

Brilliantly put @ClearBlueLou. I perticularly enjoyed the line "You don't dialogue with the angels of your nature".
Looking over the CUD list,
I'm not going to worry about bloodshot eyes. That's what Visine is for, and I haven't felt compelled to ever use Visine IN my eyes.
I don't use more than intended. I use what I need. I use what I want. The only time I used more than intended was with the Canna flour experiment, and that was misjudging potency.
Difficulty controlling use - Nope. Spending a lot of time on cannabis use - As compared to what? Hobbies? Reading? Preparing meals? I grow outdoors, but that's garden time, and I would be growing something else if I didn't grow cannabis. I read about cannabis and related items, but would be reading anyway, and I've been know to read stupid stuff at times, so it's not like my judgement on reading material has gotten worse. Harvesting takes about as much time as picking, canning, drying fruit and vegetables. If you want it later, you must prep it now. Cleaning glass, vapes, and other practical prep is just what needs to be done to be clean. I'm not worried about time spent, unless we talk about how I spend too much time on fruit as well.
Do I crave cannabis? Not really. I like it and all, but it doesn't get uncomfortable the way craving chocolate does. Sugar is a problem, because I want it more than I want to. That doesn't happen with cannabis.
Problems at work, school, home from usage? No, not from usage. Continued use and social or relationship problems doesn't fit. I have a good relationship with my son Madri-Guy, and I avoid everyone else as much as I can. No problem there.
Using in high risk situations. What does that mean? Using while driving in front of a police car while having unprotected sex? Naw, I'm too much of a Grandma. You don't get too many chances at fun like that when you're a Grandma. If anyone has scandalous stories, do tell. The riskier and friskier the better. The answer to this one would have to be, I'd sure like to, but don't get the chance. I wouldn't anything risky anyway, but it's sure nice to be asked.
Continuing to use despite physical and psychological problems. These are pretty much the reasons I use cannabis. PTSD and physical problems. There haven't been physical or psychological problems because of use, or made worse by use. The flashbacks are even improving. Do I have a tolerence to cannabis? I'm pretty tolerent and accepting, so I'm more tolerent than of cannabis than some, maybe not as much as others. Physically tolerent? That's just how it goes. You use something, you can become tolerent. It's not a big deal to go on a T-break, and they are pretty effective. You just have to deal with symptoms returning if you use it medically, and that has to be considered. As does the final issue of withdrawal. Are the physical problems from my physical issues I'm treating, or from lack of cannabis? The physical problems aren't from cannabis, and neither is the PTSD.
The thing is, this is from the DSM-5, and unless I'm in front of a clinician or practitioner qualified to diagnose using the DSM-5, I'm going with my own grown-up, adult, evaluation of my usage. I'm more than happy to reflect and ponder the situation, but I don't live by amateur diagnosis.