Tornado by Vestratto

[RedZep]

I think the thing that has confused me the most with the stem situation is that they really could’ve launched with the stem, if this shorty Anvil stem was all it was going to be. I mean within a few weeks of launch people were hacking up Anvil stems to fit, and this appears to be the exact same thing. It was such an obvious solution to shorten the connection slightly. Does make me scratch my savagely balding head a bit.

If I was holding out for an official stem I’d be quite frustrated by that. I don’t use WPA so I’d be getting that and then having to double dip for the stem.

Even the adapter scruffy makes is such an obvious and easy part that could’ve been done in house and bundled in.

On the plus side I think @RedZep is probably correct in saying that Vestratto have removed the Tornado from the website in order to relist it as a complete device with stem.

Just stings for those of us before then, that had to buy a vape that’s basically non functional for our usage style without buying additional parts. I mean I suppose the argument is that we knowingly bought it for what it is, although I think they could’ve at least thrown a bone to people like you who ordered close enough to the stem launch that it could be swapped in.

I’ve said it for a while but I really feel they’d do well to bring someone in with more of a business head to help organise things and get everything running smoothly. Every time I go on that site I wish I could spend a day tidying up the product descriptions and de cluttering all the old options they’ve not removed, making all the product photos follow the same style and format.

It might sound cynical, but I think they intended a new stem design. Thinking they needed more cooling for the much larger bowl.

I think they maybe half came up with something but it would have cost more to produce and sell. Then they saw people are mainly using it with elegant stems with not much cooling anyway and thought f*** it, let's just stick with what works. People mostly don't fill the bowl anyway.

Of course this is all just in my imagination so could be absolute nonsense. However there must be some reason they did it this way. If they intended a stem like this all along they would have just released it day one with this stem as it is in-house tech. They already have the design and the manufacturing ability for it

 

[PrematureEvaporation]

It might sound cynical, but I think they intended a new stem design. Thinking they needed more cooling for the much larger bowl.

I think they maybe half came up with something but it would have cost more to produce and sell. Then they saw people are mainly using it with elegant stems with not much cooling anyway and thought f*** it, let's just stick with what works. People mostly don't fill the bowl anyway.

Of course this is all just in my imagination so could be absolute nonsense. However there must be some reason they did it this way. If they intended a stem like this all along they would have just released it day one with this stem as it is in-house tech. They already have the design and the manufacturing ability for it

That could definitely go some way to explaining it. It did sort of sound like it was going to be a new stem when it was first mentioned.

I think there’s also a big element of maintaining compatibility with the Anvil parts people already own. They were catching a lot of heat for not maintaining compatibility early on. Even when that seemingly new stem design was announced people were being cynical about having to buy a whole new stem and accusing them of doing it to nickel and dime customers. From that POV I suppose you can’t win really.

Whatever it is, it’s been a rather strange situation all round. Especially to end up with a hacksawed Anvil stem which could’ve been done at launch. Still, at least the stem is fairly cheap and everyone can use their existing parts and artisan heat shields.

 

[General Disaster]

In the end, who bar Vestratto staff can say why and how this all came to be, and I can think of reasons for some of it, many mentioned in the thread. But without knowing shit about it, I have to wonder whether they are trying to bring out too many new products simultaneously (R&D and QA etc), most of which seem to be cutting edge of the vape market, and are thus simply over stretched according to their resources?

Often a companies highest running costs are it's employee's, so just saying they need to employ more may not be a feasible way forward for them, but if so, maybe they should be focusing on developing just one new product at a time? Rather than juggling a few - I wonder if this is one reason for their customer support struggles? It's my experience that most innovative small companies have no intention of providing a poor after sales service, but are in a difficult position to allocate the resources appropriately compared to established larger companies with better credit access etc.

But in such a rapidly evolving market it must be tough to correctly allocate resources to juggle all those factors and keep the plates spinning.
Being a business dunce I couldn't come up with better plans, but I would recommend they consider being more communicative about the actual reasons for these reported issues, because the very most annoying thing is simply not knowing! It makes purchasing decisions difficult and is stressful and unrewarding when it doesn't work out as expected. And however bad the reasons may be, they are rarely as bad as those that people think up when they have no other information to go on!

 

[jbm]

And however bad the reasons may be, they are rarely as bad as those that people think up when they have no other information to go on!

I stopped buying from them after the Thermocore Anvil because I’ve only ever had bad customer service from them.

 

[RedZep]

I stopped buying from them after the Thermocore Anvil because I’ve only ever had bad customer service from them.

Waiting for third party sellers to get stock does seem highly preferable with Vestratto. I have not idea if/when the Tornado will be stocked here in the UK stores though.

It sometimes feels like John hates us I bet he can't wait until his product is in the medical mainstream so he doesn't need to sell to us geeks

 

[hotmeals]

Weren't they advertising the Tornado as WPA only from the very beginning? IIRC John seemed pretty adamant about not putting it on a stem back then. I got the impression that they only decided to release a stem for it because people complained after launch. I'm not really bothered by it since a stem from anyone else would have cost money also. It would be kind of scummy if it was an intentional scheme though.

 

[Orvaxxx]

It might sound cynical, but I think they intended a new stem design. Thinking they needed more cooling for the much larger bowl.

I think they maybe half came up with something but it would have cost more to produce and sell. Then they saw people are mainly using it with elegant stems with not much cooling anyway and thought f*** it, let's just stick with what works. People mostly don't fill the bowl anyway.

Of course this is all just in my imagination so could be absolute nonsense. However there must be some reason they did it this way. If they intended a stem like this all along they would have just released it day one with this stem as it is in-house tech. They already have the design and the manufacturing ability for it

If I remember right, they were working on a stem for the Anvil, long before the Tornado was in production. So I was expecting a little bit more than the same stem as the Anvil.

 

[PrematureEvaporation]

delete pls

 

[SlickHenry]

After sending two emails to the email address for order queries with no response for over 3 weeks I forwarded it to the info@ email a couple of days ago.

So I got a response today saying they ship according to when the order was received (??) so my order won't ship yet but it will ship in April, possibly next week.

Does this mean that they are manufacturing each order one at a time or that they only ship a few each day?

I didn't bother asking about the stems

 

[General Disaster]

After sending two emails to the email address for order queries with no response for over 3 weeks I forwarded it to the info@ email a couple of days ago.

So I got a response today saying they ship according to when the order was received (??) so my order won't ship yet but it will ship in April, possibly next week.

Does this mean that they are manufacturing each order one at a time or that they only ship a few each day?

I didn't bother asking about the stems

If you don't mind saying, when did you place your order? (I likewise am waiting on one for end march/early april).

 

[SlickHenry]

If you don't mind saying, when did you place your order? (I likewise am waiting on one for end march/early april).

19 February.

 

[Mr_Hodag]

How do I make sure I'm on the vestratto email list? I did the subscription link twice but haven't seen any sort of confirmation if it went through. Hoping I could snag one when they're back in stock

 

[GlassWindows]

How do I make sure I'm on the vestratto email list? I did the subscription link twice but haven't seen any sort of confirmation if it went through. Hoping I could snag one when they're back in stock

Check your spam, that’s where my confirmation link was. It’s from “John.”

 

[General Disaster]

19 February.

Ha! Same day as me! Thanks and good luck on getting yours promptly.

 

[General Disaster]

Does this mean that they are manufacturing each order one at a time or that they only ship a few each day?

My take, for what it's worth (not a lot!), is they are producing them in relatively small batches every couple months or so (approximately speaking).
If I had to guess I'd say they are putting up the 'in stock' item in their online shop when they place a new order with their manufacturer, and this is why the delay on delivery and the status of 'pre-order'.

If that's correct, it gives an impression of being a little reliant on customer cash flow for my personal taste as many other manufacturers wait until they actually have that manufacturing order completed and have the new stock in their hands (many a slip twixt cup and lip etc).

While there's every possibility there's other good reason and I'm not correct about that, this is where my previous point about being communicative comes in - without knowing the reasons, customers will tend to find the most negative answers when expectations are unfulfilled, and this can't be helping reputation, can it?

BTW, are you in UK or just a Gibson fan?

 

[hotmeals]

My take, for what it's worth (not a lot!), is they are producing them in relatively small batches every couple months or so (approximately speaking).
If I had to guess I'd say they are putting up the 'in stock' item in their online shop when they place a new order with their manufacturer, and this is why the delay on delivery and the status of 'pre-order'.

If that's correct, it gives an impression of being a little reliant on customer cash flow for my personal taste as many other manufacturers wait until they actually have that manufacturing order completed and have the new stock in their hands (many a slip twixt cup and lip etc).

While there's every possibility there's other good reason and I'm not correct about that, this is where my previous point about being communicative comes in - without knowing the reasons, customers will tend to find the most negative answers when expectations are unfulfilled, and this can't be helping reputation, can it?

BTW, are you in UK or just a Gibson fan?

Vestratto does a good portion of their own manufacturing

 

[SlickHenry]

My take, for what it's worth (not a lot!), is they are producing them in relatively small batches every couple months or so (approximately speaking).
If I had to guess I'd say they are putting up the 'in stock' item in their online shop when they place a new order with their manufacturer, and this is why the delay on delivery and the status of 'pre-order'.

If that's correct, it gives an impression of being a little reliant on customer cash flow for my personal taste as many other manufacturers wait until they actually have that manufacturing order completed and have the new stock in their hands (many a slip twixt cup and lip etc).

While there's every possibility there's other good reason and I'm not correct about that, this is where my previous point about being communicative comes in - without knowing the reasons, customers will tend to find the most negative answers when expectations are unfulfilled, and this can't be helping reputation, can it?

BTW, are you in UK or just a Gibson fan?

Just seems weird to me that surely they would ship all of these orders within a day or two as surely they would have manufactured and shipped them all together. Like you, I don't really have a head for business but there does seem a very big disconnect somewhere.

Finally someone picks up on the Sprawl trilogy reference! I am also from the UK and a 'Henry' is slang here for a weights measure so it felt appropriate

 

[General Disaster]

Just seems weird to me that surely they would ship all of these orders within a day or two as surely they would have manufactured and shipped them all together. Like you, I don't really have a head for business but there does seem a very big disconnect somewhere.

Finally someone picks up on the Sprawl trilogy reference! I am also from the UK and a 'Henry' is slang here for a weights measure so it felt appropriate

I only picked up on the Deacon Blues reference, missed the 'H' as a weight! Doh, mus' be getting old! The "H the 8th" seemed a good UK pointer.
Hope the Korsakoff's ain't getting you down! (or was that another Gibson character?).

I have no clue as to how Vestratto (or others) actually work, can only draw generalised conclusions based on common sense, so likely incorrect. But if they'd be more informative on this, people would have more accurate expectations and not feel let down simply because of lack of knowledge and/or incorrect expectations.

Vestratto does a good portion of their own manufacturing

As I said, I'm guessing! But even if they make most of the parts, it only takes one critical component to require a third party service, and that bottlenecks the process just as much as if it was all contracted out? But it's not the real point, which is that of information access. The more people know the less they need to guess, and the guesses are often worse than reality.

 

[chlorophyll_man]

It only takes one critical component to require a third party service, and that bottlenecks the process

I remember John saying that they had to book time in at an independent industrial vacuum oven thing in order to suck the copper core in-between the steel layers to create the unique Vestratto sandwich. For him this was the most stressful part of the manufacturing process because if something went wrong during this part of the process then they might have to wait weeks for another opportunity to use this vacuum oven to try again.

 

[RedZep]

I remember John saying that they had to book time in at an independent industrial vacuum oven thing in order to suck the copper core in-between the steel layers to create the unique Vestratto sandwich. For him this was the most stressful part of the manufacturing process because if something went wrong during this part of the process then they might have to wait weeks for another opportunity to use this vacuum oven to try again.

It has to be said, Vestratto's products do have some very complex production procedures. I don't envision these products flying off the production belt.

 

[DaBouse]

Does anyone have both an inductor and a solid torch? I was considering an inductor during the 420 sale. But in the inductor thread it looks like multiple people are agreeing that the core is a disposable part that will need periodic replacement over time.

I don’t mind paying a bit more for a powerful device, but having a part that needs consistent replacing feels like a design flaw that needs to be fixed at the price point. Assuming, that it is a consistent issue. At that point, maybe I’d rather just get a torch.

Thoughts?

 

[jbm]

Does anyone have both an inductor and a solid torch? I was considering an inductor during the 420 sale. But in the inductor thread it looks like multiple people are agreeing that the core is a disposable part that will need periodic replacement over time.

I don’t mind paying a bit more for a powerful device, but having a part that needs consistent replacing feels like a design flaw that needs to be fixed at the price point. Assuming, that it is a consistent issue. At that point, maybe I’d rather just get a torch.

Thoughts?

A set of 3 replacement f-cores is 20 bucks, and should last you a long time. This is comparable to having to buy good quality butane for a torch.

 

[DaBouse]

A set of 3 replacement f-cores is 20 bucks, and should last you a long time. This is comparable to having to buy good quality butane for a torch.

Ah. I didn’t check the price. I guess that’s not bad. Strange to me that it seems to be the only IH that needs replacement parts though. Curious as to the reason.

 

[coolbreeze]

Does anyone have both an inductor and a solid torch? I was considering an inductor during the 420 sale. But in the inductor thread it looks like multiple people are agreeing that the core is a disposable part that will need periodic replacement over time.

I don’t mind paying a bit more for a powerful device, but having a part that needs consistent replacing feels like a design flaw that needs to be fixed at the price point. Assuming, that it is a consistent issue. At that point, maybe I’d rather just get a torch.

Thoughts?

I don't use mine every day but I've never needed to replace the core. I'm not how or why it breaks, but it's been fine with normal use since I got mine in the initial "beta" group. It is an exceptional piece of gear, and I'd consider it worthwhile even if I had to replace the core here or there. The sale price is pretty sweet, too.

 

[General Disaster]

I remember John saying that they had to book time in at an independent industrial vacuum oven thing in order to suck the copper core in-between the steel layers to create the unique Vestratto sandwich. For him this was the most stressful part of the manufacturing process because if something went wrong during this part of the process then they might have to wait weeks for another opportunity to use this vacuum oven to try again.

That's the sort of thing I meant, essentially a part of the manufacture process that's likely batched, and performed by a third party.
No idea really, but that sort of thing would be one explanation for the appearance of regular but modest sized batches.

And if that vacuum process you mentioned is high risk then it would make sense not to do too many in one batch, from the sound of it.

Ah. I didn’t check the price. I guess that’s not bad. Strange to me that it seems to be the only IH that needs replacement parts though. Curious as to the reason.

I honestly haven't read up on induction nearly enough to answer that, but my most obvious thought would be that's it's something to do with the different nature of the inductor and it's use of the core instead of a direct coil/vape interface, and/or possibly the much higher density of energy in that core?

It would be interesting to know why it needs replacing - some kind of weakening to the structure? Or is metal being evaporated off the core gradually? (if the latter that also begs the question of the makeup of the core and where that metal vapour would be going!).
Or maybe the core is constructed to focus the energy efficiently and that gradually fails over time losing efficiency until a replacement needed? Anyone know something about this?