Rainbow and Rasta
Well-Known Member
@Jojofernz @WirtDog sorry guys I’m just being very sensitive about this when it seems to be going in circles and I guess to me it just comes on like bullying and not knowing when to stop
Venty by Storz & Bickel
- Thread starter Jill NYC
- Start date
staircase slight of hand
Well-Known Member
I think y’all might really be judging vapes on a curve that you’re not applying to other manufacturers. If Apple recalled the entire initial batch of their new flagship iPhone, or Tesla recalled the entirety of a new model release, I think we’d have a lot more folks thinking “wtf, how did they not catch this in testing??” than there would be thinking “what a professionally run company that’s handling this recall so responsibly!!”.
I’m 99% sure Jorge Fernandez never worked for S&B. You might be thinking of Arno Hazekamp, who contributed to the Tafee Bowle (along with Jorge)?
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Jojofernz
Well-Known Member
No bullying intended, just discussion about the issue, which I feel is pretty relevant. We should strive for vape companies to be as competent and thorough in their initial testing and development of a device, as they are in response to an issue like this.
But I won’t be a broken record anymore! I do want this vape. With it being $450 and something I’m considering, I’m gonna have a lot of expectations and be critical of how it launches and works before I purchase, so let’s see how it goes from here! Great looking vape when it was functioning in videos around here!
Much love, hope everyone receives their working unit ASAP and that it is even better than the one they had before!
seki
Well-Known Member
Appreciated. The MiniVap is fair to point out. Please don't take my ramblings as anything more than that. I even forgot about log vapes. The Eterra predated the Volcano by a year or two and I think the Aromazap was sometime post 2000. I only have experience with logs post 2015 so I'm not sure how the older models would measure up. Given other similar styles of devices from around that time, I'd guess that you can still make a case for S&B innovation despite my Swiss cheese memory.
That's fair. I haven't tried any of the Airvape line, but if that's the case, then yeah, the Venty isn't quite as unique in that regard. The TM2 and FF2 generally aren't regarded as session vapes though so if you're not going to make that distinction, it's definitely nothing new. RBT, Lamart, along with a bunch of other devices have been able to clear even larger amounts in shorter periods of time.for quite a while now.I have nothing against the Venty or S&B. I don't own any of their vapes but I can see that many on the forum stand by them for their reliability and efficiency.
I don't think the paragraph above though is completely valid. I own an AVLP that can clear 0.25g in under 2min including heat-up time while using it natively and it pre-dated the Venty. I don't own the TM2, or Roffu either but from what I've read they're also both capable of this just off the top of my head, probably even the FF2 can do this so I don't think it's "pretty unique".
Adding 2x18650s gives it impressive battery life (not innovation per se) but I would say only when you add the adaptive heating via flow control, user flow control and massive 130W power ceiling, then yes I would say all these things are new and pretty unique. Of course there are always tradeoffs for performance and I guess the Venty's increased size compared to other portables is one of them.
Edit: It seems like the AVLP is a convection device? If that's true, then I'm not sure the comparison is valid. The AVLP is an on-demand device that has a "session mode" that is not quite the same as what S&B devices do.
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Mndeadhead
Well-Known Member
Did anyone else get the email a couple of weeks back informing you that they are out of stock, and that you could either wait it out, or request a refund? I decided to request the refund, but havent seen it yet, nor have I had any response from S&B other than an email asking me to run the test to determine if my yet to be delivered Venty needed to be bricked or not.
How many more resources/employees does your Apple's and Tesla's of the world have compared to S&B though.
staircase slight of hand
Well-Known Member
Quite a bit, I’d imagine? But I’m not sure how relevant that is to a recall. Would a full-model at-launch recall from Rolls Royce or Maserati be more understandable/acceptable than one from Honda or GM simply because they’re a smaller corporation?
ChooChooCharlie
Well-Known Member
Jürgen is rockin' espanol, from his engineering gig in Peru?
www.instagram.com
Sounds like he is determined to make things right (because they failed to "make things right" the first time). I still have faith
Jürgen Bickel on Instagram: "The nature of serial product development: challenges and how to overcome them. Muchas gracias @grecia.adaro #productdevelopment #storzandbickel"
437 likes, 81 comments - jurgen_bickelNovember 13, 2023 on : "The nature of serial product development: challenges and how to overcome them. Muchas gracias @grecia.adaro #productdevelopment #stor...".
www.instagram.com
Sounds like he is determined to make things right (because they failed to "make things right" the first time). I still have faith
Thunderbelch
Well-Known Member
Yeah, they've always taken care of me in the past so no worries here. Almost sounds like the thousands he says they made during development were tested in an automated setup (with too narrow test conditions/parameters) and the issue only became obvious with broader real world usage. I would imagine they kept human testing before the launch as narrow as they could to avoid leaks to the press.Jürgen is rockin' espanol, from his engineering gig in Peru?
Jürgen Bickel on Instagram: "The nature of serial product development: challenges and how to overcome them. Muchas gracias @grecia.adaro #productdevelopment #storzandbickel"
437 likes, 81 comments - jurgen_bickelNovember 13, 2023 on : "The nature of serial product development: challenges and how to overcome them. Muchas gracias @grecia.adaro #productdevelopment #stor...".
Sounds like he is determined to make things right (because they failed to "make things right" the first time). I still have faith
TigoleBitties
Big and Bouncy
Pretty sure I've read somewhere that companies attached to a family name e.g. Bickel in this case but could be Heinz or Campbell or Ferrari, generally provide more consumer satisfaction and are more successful compared to an arbitrary company name like Microsoft. No small wonder I suppose since Jürgen doesn't seem eager to have his name attached to some sort of scandal. He seems to be doing and saying the right things.Jürgen is rockin' espanol, from his engineering gig in Peru?
Jürgen Bickel on Instagram: "The nature of serial product development: challenges and how to overcome them. Muchas gracias @grecia.adaro #productdevelopment #storzandbickel"
437 likes, 81 comments - jurgen_bickelNovember 13, 2023 on : "The nature of serial product development: challenges and how to overcome them. Muchas gracias @grecia.adaro #productdevelopment #stor...".
Sounds like he is determined to make things right (because they failed to "make things right" the first time). I still have faith
I will say I've never seen a situation where a company asked the consumer to assume the responsibility of de-activating and ultimately disposing of a unit. Any product really, not just a vape
.... not sure I can think of a time this happened to me. But I guess you can't just ship a (potentially) dangerous product through the mail back to the manufacturer.In closing, I was hooked on the video in the first 2 seconds. Grecia is a hottie!
Much respect Jürgen 
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Well I'm guessing the more resources you have the more thorough testing and QC can be achieved. Seems logical to me.
How many Rolls Royce or Maserati are released per year compared to Telsa's though? If its considerably less, then you would need less resources for the same level of QC.
Someone mentioned around 170 employees work at S&B. How many of them are testers etc.
Comparisons are generally not that helpful, without full stat breakdowns of all companies in question.
I'm sure though once S&B fix the Venty it will stay fixed, as the Volcano did.
JoeMama
Well-Known Member
IMO the comparisons to Apple and Tesla are not "apples to apples", as either case has a different product nature:
The only way Apple would recall an iPhone would be for a dangerous battery flaw. In which case it's trash in the customer's hands.
The nature of the product is throw-away, essentially.
And Tesla (or any car company) would never "brick" a vehicle and assume you'll throw it out. There are far too many salvagable materials in a new car.
In all three cases of Apple, Tesla, and S&B, however, what they DO have in common is that Risk Management considered the Liability risk versus the write-off cost of a potentially hazardous situation.
I mean, how many are we talking about? I said maybe hundreds? Really, these aren't iPhones or Cars. They're a new product, not S&B's only product, so they have enough nuts stored for Winter in Venty Land.
mmmmtastyhealthylungs
Member
How are ya'll arguing about the optics of a recall such as this when you don't have to look back much further to Samsung Galaxy Note 7 in 2016. That was such a disaster that Samsung lost billions of dollars and huge market share, with many at the company expressing shame at the failure.
It took them nearly 2 months to fully stop selling the phone and that was after multiple incidents. If a worlds leading phone manufacturer can botch a device due to a faulty supplier of course it's possible for a Vape to be in the same position. The different between the S&B and most other vapes is the fact they have onboard diagnostics and caught the problem relatively quickly, I'm sure there are MANY vapes who experience the same level of failure that we the user have no idea till they're sending it in for a warranty.
It took S&B about 3 weeks for them to diagnose the problem and make the decision it's widespread enough to issue a full recall. That's outstanding imo, of course everyone is disappointed but they did the right thing.
It took them nearly 2 months to fully stop selling the phone and that was after multiple incidents. If a worlds leading phone manufacturer can botch a device due to a faulty supplier of course it's possible for a Vape to be in the same position. The different between the S&B and most other vapes is the fact they have onboard diagnostics and caught the problem relatively quickly, I'm sure there are MANY vapes who experience the same level of failure that we the user have no idea till they're sending it in for a warranty.
It took S&B about 3 weeks for them to diagnose the problem and make the decision it's widespread enough to issue a full recall. That's outstanding imo, of course everyone is disappointed but they did the right thing.
CloudMaker
Well-Known Member
They also don’t ship as many “units” as Apple and Tesla. Not even comparable. The iPhone and an EV/ICE vehicle is on another level of technicality and engineering versus a device that heats up and get you high
staircase slight of hand
Well-Known Member
Sure, but companies don’t scale “how much testing is needed” to reflect how many employees they have, they scale testing to reflect how much testing is needed so that this particular kind of event doesn’t happen (and clearly, that didn’t happen here).
simba
@weedanwine
Everyone earlier in the thread bought out all these possible but unlikely scenarios about why this wasn't picked up in testing. Yet it was the obvious, they didn't do it properly. This wasn't unlucky, this was predictable. NDAs exist when you want to avoid leaks.
mmmmtastyhealthylungs
Member
Recalls happen dude, how can you presume "it was obvious.... they didn't do it properly.... this was predictable". You're out here with your mind made up regardless of the truth, unless we get a retrospective from S&B directly with a full breakdown of the problem you're only out here with bad faith takes.
MoltenTiger
Well-Known Member
I think they are just big name catch alls. S&B scales over 15x the size of say Grasshopper LLC who were berated by professional reviewers despite delivering the most innovative product in this space to date as a bunch of borderline drop outs. It would certainly have been a different story if any money was there to pay them them off... or if they handled themselves better over the course of time. It's not easy, you can't win with faulty parts in inventory.
We likely forget in this day and age that often we bring criticism onto ourselves and there is an element of it being deserved.
How it is handled warrants whether it should cease or not.
S&B have just experienced a mid-tier bad case scenario, and have handled it as they've seen fit. At least it is extremely likely they will get through it.
It's a pity about the ewaste, wouldn't it have been good to remove the batteries and return it in the prepaid satchel that arrived wlth the replacememt, so it can be sent in for refurbishment and/or hassle free processing. Then you'd have spare batteries and a spare cooler. I would at least be saving my whole unit for spare parts and waiting the maximum time to shut it down. After reading the comms here I wouldn't have even opened the mail yet.
I guess their keynote really didn't involve mother mature
No need to take it too seriously, this is not an easy position to be in and their handling is perfectly reasonable. A small hiccup for them and users in the grand scheme. An interesting start for Venty.
Now people have a taste they're all keen to rekindle. So at least they have made something that people really do want. Hopefully their stock forecast stays true and they squish all the bugs.
Testing hardware is more difficult than you would imagine. Very hard to catch everything, some problems take time to be recognised. Once you find it, like they have after the fact, this is the best way forward for everyone.
Plus, the teardowns got done early! (I can't see anything after a quick google, where are the photos at?!) FC shouldn't be beaten by the competition on this... bad priorities.
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Orvaxxx
Well-Known Member
I remember the Orion ih from which I had to destroy it, sent a picture and got a new one.Pretty sure I've read somewhere that companies attached to a family name e.g. Bickel in this case but could be Heinz or Campbell or Ferrari, generally provide more consumer satisfaction and are more successful compared to an arbitrary company name like Microsoft. No small wonder I suppose since Jürgen doesn't seem eager to have his name attached to some sort of scandal. He seems to be doing and saying the right things.
I will say I've never seen a situation where a company asked the consumer to assume the responsibility of de-activating and ultimately disposing of a unit. Any product really, not just a vape
In closing, I was hooked on the video in the first 2 seconds. Grecia is a hottie!
As I have just woken up, I figured I would do a quick Google on car manufacturers recalls, as this is the comparison you have decided to go with. I'll only put a couple of links up because I don't wanna bore people to much.
After this though, I think we should take cars and iPhone's out of this forum and go back to vape talk.
Headline : Toyota recalls electric cars over concerns about loose wheels.
Link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61919424
Headline: Rolls Royce has recalled 1,300 Ghosts to put protective tape on the $400,000 car’s gauge cluster so it does not shatter in a crash.
Link: https://luxurylaunches.com/transport/2023-rolls-royce-ghost-recall.php
Headline: autoevolution
Maserati to Recall 2021 and 2022 Models Over Fuel Leak Risk, No Incidents Reported.
Link: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...l-leak-risk-no-incidents-reported-174773.html
Humans are fallible, is my take.
simba
@weedanwine
I'm not presuming, I'm basing it on what they've said. They literally said they tried to automate all the testing.
Testing can't be automated because it's a sapient activity, only checking can be automated, and they also admitted their automated checks were based on too narrow parameters. So based on that, I think we can say this was predictable.
Sure they've done the right thing now, but it could've been avoided.
they automated the testing for all their devices, which never was a problem (Sauce: Factory tour) So it wasn’t predictable at all, since it worked fine so far
I got this, though I had radio silence for a full week before I chased and was told it was out of stock. The refund as well, didn't hear for 4-5 days and chased that up, was in my bank next day.
Just want a Venty from anywhere now, the scarcity has elevated the desire for me now. Mighty will see me through for now
Thunderbelch
Well-Known Member
I asked but they just gave the same copypasta answer. Saftey issue + energy management has to be a battery thermal runaway risk though. That could be triggered by over-charging, charging too fast, or shorting (nothing else really).
The most likely candidate is the BMS chip, but it could be any component that could cause any of the above. I doubt we'll ever get more detail than that.