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Vaporizing temperature charts: where do they come from?

Discussion in 'ABV' started by pakalolo, Mar 31, 2014.

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  1. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    I agree with their conclusion, but the article never clarifies that all components begin to vapourize long before they reach their boiling points. I also wish that just once one of these charts would include a source for the information. Where do these numbers come from?
  2. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    This one cites it's source. Unfortunately the source is just another forum. :doh:
    [​IMG]

    :peace:
  3. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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    I've never seen ash, and hot embers at 433f, they must be using a cheaply made vaporizer.
  4. Been Vapin

    Been Vapin Crushing it for years

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    Hashish by Robert Clarke
    Page 203 -206

    Figure 4.2 physical properties of compounds contained in cannabis at room temperature

    References: Aldrich Chemical Company catalog 1992-1993; Hood et al, 1973; Lousberg and Salemink 1973; Malingre et al 1975; Merck Index 1988; Nigam et al 1965; Stahl and Kindle 1973; Turner et al 1980; and personal observations by the author 1994.

    I think this is the Premier source for most terpene info. Can't find a pic in the web of the figure 4.2. Maybe I will take some pics of from my copy of the book.
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
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  5. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    Thanks for the sources. I've seen this table many times but no one has ever cited a source before, except that bluelight forum that Stu mentioned. I should get a copy of that book.
  6. nigel

    nigel And shepherds we shall be,for Accuracy & Discovery

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    I think, regardless of whether the sites know it or not, a lot of the online info comes from McPartland and Russo (2001).

    From the publication (emphasis added):

    Vaporizer technology may improve the bioavailability of limonene and other compounds, which volatilize around the same temperature as THC (see Figures 1-3). Vaporizers are smoking apparati that heat cannabis to 185°C (365°F), which vaporizes THC but is below the ignition point of combustible plant material. Vaporized cannabis emits a thin gray vapor, whereas combusted cannabis produces a thick smoke. Thus, vaporizers deliver a better canna- binoid-to-tar ratio than cigarettes or water pipes (Gieringer 1996). In a recent study, traces of THC were vaporized at temperatures as low as 140°C (284°F) and the majority of THC vaporized by 185°C (365°F); benzene and other car- cinogenic vapors did not appear until 200°C (392°F), and cannabis combus- tion occurred around 230°C (446°F) (Gieringer 2001).​

    There's your range (although it doesn't distinguish between Δ-8 and Δ-9, which each have different volatility points and accounts for some of that spread/range).
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  7. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    I'm sure a lot does, but not that table.
  8. nigel

    nigel And shepherds we shall be,for Accuracy & Discovery

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    The table that @Been Vapin cites does come (IIRC) from Robert Clarke's book which is older (1998) than the paper I cited, so yeah, it would NOT have referenced that. (Plus it pulls data from even older sources.)

    Starting on page 111 of the PDF there are tables that include structure, concentration, boiling point, and "properties" (ie effects). The paper does use some of the same sources as the book, but then has a few more. Plus it has the *Slight* advantage of being a few years newer, and thus has a few newer citations. Plus, the paper has been peer-reviewed.

    I know a few webpages that cite that publication directly, but an awful lot more copy/paste without reference to the original paper. So its slightly newer and oft-quoted, so that was more my point. :)
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  9. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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    That vaporizer study used one of the earlier vaporizers that wasnt accurate in temperature, as far as the temperature of the air in the bowl. I wish I can remember the name of it but, it was a handheld, wand type vaporizer that you put over a glass bowl. I'm sure someone remembers the name but, if I remember correctly it built up heat and would burn the herbs sometime so that is probably why the temperature is reported being so low for boiling majority of THC in that study. Damn I wish I can remember the name of that vaporizer so I can post a picture. The company who made it came out with one of the first portable, battery operated vaporizers in 2006.

    EDIT: It was called the M1 volatizer
    http://www.volatizer.com/html/instructions.html
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
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  10. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    They used two vaporizers. The one you are trying to remember is the Tilt:

    [​IMG]
    It's basically a BC Vaporizer. The other was the M1 Volatizer, which was basically a heater element that you placed over a bong bowl:

    [​IMG]
    Volatizer is still in business and sells the M2, which is not much different from the M1.
  11. luchiano

    luchiano Well-Known Member

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    @pakalolo yeah it was the m1 volatizer, I found a article on the study. Here it is:

    http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/Study-Shows-Vaporizers-Reduce-Toxins-in-Marijuana-Smoke

    California NORML Press Release - Jan 8, 2001

    Medical marijuana patients may protect themselves from harmful toxins in marijuana smoke by inhaling their medicine using an electric vaporizer, according to results of a study by California NORML and MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies).

    The study showed that it is possible to vaporize medically active THC by heating marijuana to a temperature short of the point of combustion, thereby eliminating or substantially reducing harmful smoke toxins that are normally present in marijuana smoke. Vaporizers may therefore substantially reduce what is widely regarded as the leading health hazard of marijuana, namely respiratory harm due to smoking.

    Details of the study are published in D. Gieringer, "Cannabis Vaporization: A Promising Strategy for Smoke Harm Reduction," Journal of Cannabis Therapeutics Vol. 1#3-4: 153-70 (2001). Reprints available for $5 from California NORML, 2261 Market St. #278A, San Francisco CA 94114.

    NORML and MAPS sponsored the study in the hopes of helping medical marijuana patients and others reduce the health risks of smoking. The hazards of smoking were cited as a major obstacle to approval of natural cannabis by the Institute of Medicine in its 1999 report, "Marijuana and Medicine." However, the IOM report failed to note the possibility of vaporization.

    The NORML-MAPS study tested a device called the M1 Volatizer, an aromatherapy vaporizer
    developed by Alternative Delivery Systems, Inc. It consisted of an electric heating element in a chamber that radiates heat downwards over a sample of marijuana sitting in a standard pipe or "bong" bowl. Output from the vaporizer was analyzed and compared to smoke produced by combusting the sample with a flame.

    The vaporizer produced THC at a temperature of 185° C. (365° F.) while completely eliminating three measured toxins - benzene, a known carcinogen, plus toluene and naphthalene. Carbon monoxide and smoke tars were both qualitatively reduced by the vaporizer, but additional testing is needed to quantify the extent of the decrease.

    Although the study was not designed to detect the highly carcinogenic tars known as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, which are thought to be a leading culprit in smoking-related cancers, there was good reason to believe that they were suppressed, since they normally form at much higher temperatures of combustion.

    When vaporized, the marijuana emitted a thin gray vapor and was left with a green to greenish-brown "toasted" appearance, whereas the combusted sample produced thick smoke and turned to ash.

    Significant amounts of benzene began to appear at temperatures of 200° C. (392° F), while combustion occurred around 230° (446°F) or above. Traces of THC were in evidence as low as 140° C. (284° F).

    Further details of the study will be published in a forthcoming issue of the Journal of Cannabis Therapeutics.
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  12. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    The full study is available online and is called Cannabis "Vaporization": A Promising Strategy for Smoke Harm Reduction. It contains the infamous reference to benzene appearing at 200°C, a casual unsupported assertion that has (as far as I can discover) never been repeated and in fact was not supported by a later study in which Gieringer participated: Cannabis Vaporizer Combines Efficient Delivery of THC with Effective Suppression of Pyrolytic Compounds. This study was intended to detect "carcinogenic polynuclear (or “polycyclic”) aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), known byproducts of combustion that are thought to be a major culprit in smoking-related cancers." It found that "A striking result in both analyses was a lack of significant quantities of pyrolytic-induced analytes in the vapor." That study documents numerous PAHs in smoke from combustion.
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  13. vorrange

    vorrange Well-Known Member

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    Your question is how they found each boiling point temperature? Because there is a study with every cannabinoid and its boiling temperature, i can't find it but i found it many times while surfing the web so i'm guessing you have found it already.

    I think it was one study from Ethan Russo.
  14. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    No, my question was rhetorical. I was expressing frustration about the way charts like this are tossed around with no thought whatsoever about their accuracy. Since there are versions with various different temperatures, people should be careful of relying on them to target specific components through precise temperature control—although that concept is usually so poorly understood I'm probably tilting at windmills.

    Yes, I do have a fine collection of cannabis studies related to vapourizing, including McPartland & Russo, which Nigel linked earlier but I've had it for years. They don't describe how the temperatures are derived either. They compiled them from various sources, just as the Clarke book apparently did.
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  15. vorrange

    vorrange Well-Known Member

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    Okay, i agree with you. I'd like the research to go further into the extraction process again, with the vaporizers out there today and the data already available, great breakthroughs could happen in understanding how the different cannabinoids affect us and our physiology as well as further understanding what happens chemically to the plant while it is being extracted.

    This could help medical patients to better administer their medicine and also know exactly what could happen if one abuses the plant.
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  16. Been Vapin

    Been Vapin Crushing it for years

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  17. cityslang

    cityslang A taste on the tongue

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    THCV @ 220C does the last column smoke > vapour mean you don't get much via a vape? Makes sense and I get the true euphoria of certain strains when combusting
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  18. Been Vapin

    Been Vapin Crushing it for years

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    I'm going to email the creator of the chart and ask.
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  19. Caligula

    Caligula *results not typical.

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    Meh. I typically get consistent meds from the clubs here so I can experiment and take notes. Thats the *only* way to determine how specific strains plants affect me.
  20. Jeremy Driscoll

    Jeremy Driscoll Well-Known Member

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    Damn it. Why does my Herbalaire only go to 400 then? Ohwell.
  21. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    Because it eliminates combustion. The Herbalaire's design extracts thoroughly, so you don't need a higher temperature. It's a common misconception that you have to reach the boiling point of a compound to extract it. All components start to vapourize at temperatures well below the boiling point. You can turn a pot of water completely into vapour by maintaining a temperature of 90°C (194°F) or even much lower. Cannabis compounds are no different.
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  22. Hippie Dickie

    Hippie Dickie The Herbal Cube Manufacturer

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    very true, but low temps don't give me a tube full of vapor.

    it's hard to know what other vaporizers are actually measuring or running at. i know when mine says 420°F, that an inhale sweeps my herb with an air flow that raises the herb from 370°F to 420°F, and the draw tube goes white.

    i would find 400°F to be far too low.
  23. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    Yes they do, it's just not as thick. Vapour doesn't have to be visible. The association of thick white clouds with better vapour is another widely-held misconception but it isn't one that will be corrected any time soon. The thickness of the vapour is directly related to the temperature and not the potency. Hotter thus thicker vapour contains more of the particulate matter that provides a nucleus for condensation, hence visibility, but is also responsible for higher levels of irritation. This plays into yet another myth: "cough to get off."
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  24. Hippie Dickie

    Hippie Dickie The Herbal Cube Manufacturer

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    yeah, when i cough i know the temp is too high -- drop it 5°F and the cough stops.

    ... and the amount of airflow.

    re: potency ... well, i find the thickness of the vapor very much depends on the quality of the herb (dankosity) at any given temperature. with herb dankosity at the high end of the scale, i am quite satisfied (i.e. tube full of white vapor) at a setting of 385°F (again, the herb is sitting at 335°F, and the inhale brings it up to 385°F), but for most of the ditch weed i can find, the 420°F is necessary.

    and it will take some convincing for me to accept that invisible vapor can be as satisfying as white walling my tube. but it's been decades since i've had access to Maui Wowwie.

    which is all just to reiterate that i would find 400°F too low -- if that's what the temp really is.

    i also would find 1000°F (EVO) troubling.
    Last edited: May 6, 2014
  25. Buildozer

    Buildozer Well-Known Member

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    LOL :science:
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