MinnBobber
Well-Known Member
425 C is just under 800 F. 
I think they might have meant 425 F ????
I think they might have meant 425 F ????
Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects
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GoldenBud
Well-Known Member
nope, a citation : "the vapor pressures of THC at 155°C and 190°C are about 0.05 torr and 0.3 torr"425 C is just under 800 F.
I think they might have meant 425 F ????
0.05 torr and 0.3 torr are almost 0 atm . so no vapor pressure at 155C or 190C. so they figured the boiling point is MUCH higher
I think somebody didn't know how to test/check it, or their equipment had some malfunction , or false information
Bologna
(zombie) Woof.
Hey @GoldenBud, I just ran across this article on the topic that may interest you:
cannabislifenetwork.com
Again, it's not my article, so I'm not really equipped to discuss it in detail... just thought you may glean something helpful from it... 
Cannabinoid boiling point misinformation explained
This means that a boiling point elucidated CBN more than a century ago. Yet, cannabinoid boiling points are riddled with misinformation.
cannabislifenetwork.com
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GoldenBud
Well-Known Member
1. this article also relys on the source of "Lovestead". I still research if it's true.Hey @GoldenBud, I just ran across this article on the topic that may interest you:
Cannabinoid boiling point misinformation explained
This means that a boiling point elucidated CBN more than a century ago. Yet, cannabinoid boiling points are riddled with misinformation.
2. if it's true and in P=1atm THC boils around 400C : @Grass Yes @Maschine and Bologna , we looked at it the wrong way. we don't care about THC, we care about THCA (THC ACID) which has lower boiling point. we get the THC vapor because of the heat+velocity.
THCA has lower boiling point. and they had to write it in the Maschine's article etc'
our dried buds contain THCA mostly, not THC
Bologna
(zombie) Woof.
Yeah dude, we all know THCa flower contains primarily THCa that gets decarboxylated with heat... blah blah blah
The "we care about" I think is mostly you... not to sound rude or anything, but I really don't care all that much about it and was just trying to be helpful...
Did you read this article too?;
Does THC vape or turn into an aerosol? THC's true boiling point
However, vape pens operate at temperatures far below THC's true boiling point, so how does the cannabinoid turn into an aerosol and get into the lungs?
cannabislifenetwork.com
)
GoldenBud
Well-Known Member
When people like me find major mistake in an article I just leave it so I am trying to find out if this article worth something or notYeah dude, we all know THCa flower contains primarily THCa that gets decarboxylated with heat... blah blah blah
The "we care about" I think is mostly you... not to sound rude or anything, but I really don't care all that much about it and was just trying to be helpful...
Did you read this article too?;
(why am I doing your research?Does THC vape or turn into an aerosol? THC's true boiling point
However, vape pens operate at temperatures far below THC's true boiling point, so how does the cannabinoid turn into an aerosol and get into the lungs?
Radwin Bodnic
Well-Known Member
this is definitely the most important part.Did you read this article too?;
(why am I doing your research?Does THC vape or turn into an aerosol? THC's true boiling point
However, vape pens operate at temperatures far below THC's true boiling point, so how does the cannabinoid turn into an aerosol and get into the lungs?
Plot twist :
We are not inhaling Vapor but aerosols that contains super tiny droplets of cannabinoids and terpenes.
The boiling temperatures are probably accurate but we just don't care about them because we are actually inhaling cannabinoids and terpenes that are at their liquid state, dispersed as tiny droplets into a hot air stream : together they form an aerosol.
We actually need the air to be hot only to decarboxylate THC and to melt the envelope of the trichrome, allowing the terpenes and cannabinoids to be exposed to the hot stream.
(Lipids that compose trichome envelope do melt at low temperatures. Lower than 100°C)
Edit : I've read this whole thread earlier this year and I think I remember this has already been answered.
Edit 2 : this also can explain how reclaim form : it is not condensation but just droplets loosing velocity close to the walls of the Vapor path and sticking to it. (Friction against the walls makes them loose their velocity. It is a well known thermodynamics effect)
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Bologna
(zombie) Woof.
yeah, but you didn't find any such mistake, all you found was your own misconception.
GoldenBud
Well-Known Member
wow that's.. wow.. but if you do place weed in your oven around 150C for 5-10 minutes most the trichomes will be gone!! i did it not once..... how is that? The natural convection in the oven will take the aeresol?
Thanks to all contributors for your comments and further informations- I learned a lot today!
Right now only have one question left regarding the aerosol / droplet article posted by @Bologna , that was very helpful btw!
You concluded about that reclaim:
Once I installed the CU of the TM2 in the middle of the long class stem with fake gems placed before and the CU had no reclaim at all?
Am I missing something here or mix up different aspects? Not saying you are wrong btw. just very curious about this topic and happy to have this discussion!
Right now only have one question left regarding the aerosol / droplet article posted by @Bologna , that was very helpful btw!
You concluded about that reclaim:
When it`s pure friction that leads to a loss of velocity what causes reclaim, then why are all my stems the more cloaked and covered with reclaim, the closer they are to the heating element? So far my only explanation was that this is due to the aerosol is still very hot and the big difference in temperatures (the surface vs. aerosol) of the stems or cooling elements cause this?!
Once I installed the CU of the TM2 in the middle of the long class stem with fake gems placed before and the CU had no reclaim at all?
Am I missing something here or mix up different aspects? Not saying you are wrong btw. just very curious about this topic and happy to have this discussion!
Farid
Well-Known Member
There's also other fluid properties at play. After the air goes through the bud there may be immediate turbulence and effects on the boundary layer that lead to increased contact with the walls.
Think of if the airpath has other turns in it. In general the vapor will collect on those places where there is increased turbulence and contact with the walls.
Not to discount your other explanation, but this may also be a contributing factor.
Radwin Bodnic
Well-Known Member
I am not sure the fan of the oven will produce an air stream strong enough to raise droplets from the bud.
@ 150°C liquid cannabinoids are still heavy and super sticky. My guess is that they stay on the flowers. The bud stay potent. Some terpenes may deteriorate though and that's probably why it change the smell of the bud.
In a vaporizer the air is forced through the bud that is obstructing almost all the air path. In the oven the turbulences probably won't be forced through the bud.
Think of a forest and a strong wind. The canopies are moving but there's no wind at the foot of the trees.
I think you have a solid point. It makes sense that when travelling through a straight tube the flux quickly becomes laminar. Therefore particles hits less the walls and there's less reclaim.
Aerosolization is a lot less sexy though...
PhilosoStoner
Active Member
This community is full of people who are really keen on science and STEM. Love learning something new here
Farid
Well-Known Member
Yes, natural convection. The same reason smoke rises even on a totally still day.
GoldenBud
Well-Known Member
some of them stay, some are going off, boiling point refers to the first vapor that boils off the material, that's why i thought 155C like they say in google etc' but it seems like in Pressure of P=0atm, not in P=1atm
read what boiling point is by definition.. but seems like it's not vapor which leaves, but Aerosol with the natural convection of the oven or so...
@Farid but smoke rises because of the system wants to balance the materials, air has lack of smoke molecules, so it is getting balanced
even if there's no natural convection
but maybe even in a closed room there's a bit of natural convection?
so both.. but mostly "material balancing"
it's like if you leave your wet clothes in a closed room, the water will get off the clothes because the air has less water than the dry clothes.. until it's 100% gone..or almost 100% because again the window and the door are closed and the air becomes "richer" by water..
Natural convection occurs whenever there is a temperature delta in a fluid (like air or water) within a gravitational field; so pretty much everywhere on earth (closed rooms included).
Siebter
Less soul, more mind
Strictly speaking, every liquid volatilizes continuously, even if it does not visibly evaporate.
The physical / chemical difference between the "boiling" of a substance when it reaches the boiling point and the general "evaporation" or "vaporization" below the boiling point is closely related to the corresponding kinetic energy; to understand this, it helps to understand the particle model.
In a liquid, the particles are continuously in motion and have different kinetic energies (remember: cannabinoids are oils = liquids). The distribution of these energies is described by the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution, which indicates how many particles have a certain velocity. Regardless of the temperature, there are always particles in a liquid that have enough energy to escape from the liquid into the gaseous state. As the temperature rises, the number of particles with sufficient energy to vaporize increases.
The boiling point of a liquid is the temperature at which the vapor pressure of the liquid is equal to the surrounding pressure, known as the external pressure. At the boiling point, the kinetic energy of the molecules in the liquid is sufficiently high to convert enough molecules into the gaseous state to exert a pressure which then corresponds to the external pressure.
The key difference is that in boiling, the energy used is sufficient to convert the entire liquid into the gaseous state, whereas in vaporization, the energy is only sufficient to convert molecules from the surface of the liquid into the gaseous state.
These charts with different "boiling points" of various cannabinoids are useless a) because they suggest a substance will start to evaporate at exactly that temperature and b) because they refer to conditions without pressure (for example space :-) ), but do not apply for normal conditions. They are just parroted from Wikipedia-charts without having an idea how to read them.
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GoldenBud
Well-Known Member
Maxwell-Bolzmann distribution is a model made for gases, the vapor made from cannabis vaporizers is not a gas. it's a mixture of liquids and gas(air) I was thinking like you not long ago, then there was a very interesting topic here (i think it was this topic) ,somebody shared this link:
What is the boiling point of THC at 1 atm? - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board
Wikipedia gives the boiling point of THC as 155-160°C @ 0.05mmHg. The problem is the low pressure which makes it irrelevant for most purposes. So, what is it boiling point at common pressure levels? Remember that the GQ…
boards.straightdope.com
THC boils around temperature of 160C in a vacuum, not when the pressure is P=1atm/760mmHg.
when it's P=1atm, the environment we live in, the boiling temperature is around 430C or more.
hence, Maxwell-Bolzmann distribution is not a good model here. Clausius-Clapeyron Equation or Antoine Equation can work better in this case.
It was in front of our face all along, and yet we ignored it. THC molar mass is more than 300gr/mol while water is 18gr/mol and yet we thought that THC's boiling point is around 130C for years. it's not. I was shocked too. it was so close to our brain, yet so far.
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