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Vaping/smoking BHO safe?

Discussion in 'ABV' started by Jman5280, Apr 5, 2014.

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  1. Jman5280

    Jman5280 Active Member

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    I have been doing a lot of reading about using concentrates and I have came across what seems like a lot of articles reporting that using concentrates is harmful to the brain and lungs, perhaps worst than smoking herbs traditionally. They say this is due to the butane and chemicals still left in the concentrates after it has been "blasted". From what I have read most concentrates still have a measurable amount of butane left in them.

    What's your take on possible health risks? Has anyone read anything from a credible source (doctor) explaining the real risks of using BHO's?

    Or do you think it's safe? Why?

    Lastly, is one form of BHO "cleaner" than the other? Wax vs budder vs shatter...what's "cleaner"? Why?

    Thanks!
     
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  2. Enchantre

    Enchantre A short, pithy statement

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    Vacuum Purge.
     
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  3. Jman5280

    Jman5280 Active Member

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    ?
     
  4. Quetzalcoatl

    Quetzalcoatl SPACE GOD

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  5. GR

    GR Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what you are reading but the most dangerous part of BHO is making it.
     
  6. Jman5280

    Jman5280 Active Member

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    Obviously making it is dangerous. That's not what this thread is about.

    There is a great deal of info on how the butane left in the BHO effects brain, central nervous system, and lungs.

    Someone out there knows more that the typical stoner...please chime in.

     
  7. walrus

    walrus Well-Known Member

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    Please link us to this great deal of info
     
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  8. r-bot

    r-bot New Member

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    According to Hovensa MSDS for Butane:
    Butane is considered to be non-toxic by inhalation. Inhalation of concentrations of about 10,000
    ppm may cause central nervous system depression such as dizziness, drowsiness, headache, and
    similar narcotic symptoms, but no long-term effects.

    If you came across bho with a concentration of more than 10,000 ppm gas, it would probably still be boiling at room temp.
     
  9. Jman5280

    Jman5280 Active Member

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    Ask google "smoking BHO safe?" You will see the articles I am referencing. And I agree that there has to be some risk and concern.

    I have found two groups of people that have weighed in on this topic. Some people say it is fine to consume, yet they provide little scientific evidence or reasoning. They think if it's not smoke or plant matter entering the lungs that it's healthier. Other people say that regardless of purity, even small amounts of butane and chemicals left in BHO will have negative health effects...but it is all very vague and uncertain since BHO is fairly new. The logic here certainly makes sense since people who make BHO are using chemicals to make the product.

    In Colorado BHO is selling off the shelves of dispensaries like crazy. I'm shocked people haven't looked into this more...

     
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  10. Quetzalcoatl

    Quetzalcoatl SPACE GOD

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    Honest question... Do you ever go outside. I'm sitting outside a Starbucks right now and I'm 100% positive I'm inhaling more toxic shit than a well-purged concentrate. Buildings release formaldehyde. Coffee contains over a dozen known carcinogens. Well-purged oil is of little concern. If anything, you should be more concerned with what can happen when you repeatedly dose high amounts of cannabinoids, not "what the internet says" about someone's half-assed oil. Vac purge properly and use clean butane and good starting material.
     
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  11. Jman5280

    Jman5280 Active Member

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    I do
    I do go outside, sometimes. I'm very aware of the air we breathe and concerns with being alive. This thread is more about health concerns of BHO. I'm like many of you in that I'm going to smoke it and I'm not that concerned about right now. I want to know about the risks with prolonged use and any health concerns that are backed with evidence.

    I understand this is a vape forum and everyone here is pro-vape and therefor pro-BHO...I am too. However there has to be someone out there that's on the other side of the fence with good arguments against using BHO. I want to hear these opinions. I'm not looking for a bunch of responses telling me shit I already know and not answering the question.
     
  12. r-bot

    r-bot New Member

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    In a proper extraction no butane gas is left behind. If you are concerned about residuals, residual butane is the wrong place to look. Butane is a hydrocarbon distilled from petroleum, and in most cases butane contains a small amount of heavier petroleum distillates. However, if the solvent is distilled before extraction the heavy compounds are left out.

    These distillates are mostly comprised of bitumen and paraffin wax.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
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  13. walrus

    walrus Well-Known Member

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    I'll ask again. Please link us to this "great deal of info on how the butane left in the BHO effects brain, central nervous system, and lungs."
     
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  14. Jman5280

    Jman5280 Active Member

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    As someone said earlier, "Google is your friend"

    Look for yourself, pages of articles highlighting concerns. Either way it's irrelevant for me to post links. I already know what they say and I'm looking for like minded people who know more about this than I do. I'm looking for educated people who are doctor/health professional/science nerds who can speak further than the typical stoner like myself. If you need to read these articles you don't have the knowledge I'm looking for.
     
  15. Quetzalcoatl

    Quetzalcoatl SPACE GOD

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  16. z9

    z9 Well-Known Member

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    :uhh: You're the only one claiming that there is a "great deal of info" yet you can't even give us a link showing this information. If we knew of studies showing this information we would gladly post a link for you since you seem to be incapable of doing so.
     
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  17. Quetzalcoatl

    Quetzalcoatl SPACE GOD

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    So... are you just looking for purely negative information that says BHO is bad?

    http://www.hightimes.com/read/dab-or-not-dab

    :shrug:
     
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  18. Jman5280

    Jman5280 Active Member

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    I read that one, definitely some interesting points to consider.

    I'm looking for people who think it's bad to consume and why...OR an explanation from people who think it's safe. I need help understanding how blasting with butane and than inhaling it isn't dangerous (even when purged correctly). I read a article in one of our local weed magazines where 50 dispensaries tested their BHO and only 3 of the submissions passed with the recommended target for chemical left in the product. I believe it was some sort of butane that remained even after purging. Additionally, several sources I read have told me that even properly purged BHO still has chemicals left. Could it be such a minimal amount that it's irrelevant? Sure. But I don't know, that's why I created this thread.

    Ultimately I am convinced there has to be some risk, but how much risk? I want to vape wax and shatter all day every day...but I don't want to regret it later on down the road. I'm just trying to understand anyone else's opinion on the subject because even with the articles circulating the internet, there is still a lot of unknown. I know there are some people smarter than me who can speak about it whether it's good or bad long term.

    I'm loading some Death Star shatter in the meantime...
     
  19. walrus

    walrus Well-Known Member

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    I have looked for myself and haven't found any info about how the butane left in bho affects your brain, central nervous system, and lungs. You are claiming that there is a "great deal of info" on this. Please link just ONE article that has info on the effects of residual butane in bho on the body. Just one. You are claiming there is a great deal of info on this yet you can't provide us with one example to get the discussion rolling?

    I'm not trying to call you out, just trying to educate myself. If there is indeed legitimate info out there on the negative effects of residual butane many of us would like to see it, so please provide us with what you have seen.
     
  20. Quetzalcoatl

    Quetzalcoatl SPACE GOD

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    That's why I don't get BHO very often, I have a source for CO2 oil which uses supercritical CO2 as the "solvent" to extract. Worst case scenario there's residual CO2 which cannot be in there in sufficient quantities to do anything bad to me. I mean, I'm sure holding my breath till I nearly black out is more damaging than that. Blasting with butane and then inhaling the properly purged oil isn't dangerous... all it is is cannabinoids, plant lipids, maybe residual solvent... but we're talking in parts per million, not parts per hundred or thousand. The article you're talking about, was that about the Secret Cup results? I saw those, apparently only 4 or 5 of the entries tested "clean" because they started looking for other things aside from the usuals. Not butane, pentane IIRC.

    Yes, chances are there will be minute amounts of solvent in there, again, rated in the parts per million and sometimes per billion. For well-purged stuff, it's irrelevant because of what I quoted...

    There isn't any evidence that inhaling residual hydrocarbons like butane are dangerous, in small amounts. What's small amounts? Parts per million or billion is fine with me. Like I said, I spent 30 minutes outside next to a 4 lane road with hundreds of cars passing by me, outside of buildings, drinking coffee.

    When made properly, the risks aren't from residual hydrocarbons, the risks are what you're doing to your endogenous cannabinoid system when you consistently flood it with non-endogenous cannabinoids (weed). It's not necessarily "bad" long-term if you're using equal doses (ie, 1 dab equals 1 bowl and that's all you vape). In fact, I'd say properly-made hash oil is much easier on you compared to smoking or vaping an equal amount of flower. You get the cannabinoids in one inhale, without subjecting yourself to smoking/vaporizing higher amounts of chlorophyll/plant material/plant lipids/etc. If you don't want to regret it down the line, the best thing to do is not ingest it, and maybe even not use cannabis at all.

    Like I said before, the more real risk of vaping oil all day everyday is what you're doing to your endogenous cannabinoid system. It's like when people take opiates a lot, your body stops producing the same amounts of endorphins/enkephalins because they're being delivered via opiates.
     
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  21. Quetzalcoatl

    Quetzalcoatl SPACE GOD

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    Look.

    Exposure to 10,000ppm for 10 minutes can cause drowsiness but no apparent systemic effects.

    10,000 parts per million for 10 MINUTES. No one is holding their hits for 10 minutes and even then it's not a continual exposure.

    http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/81-123/pdfs/0068.pdf
     
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  22. Jman5280

    Jman5280 Active Member

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    I understand none of these say "it's dangerous and this is why". Some of these articles argue it's safe/not safe. In some articles the argument comes up in the comment sections.

    My point is that the argument exists! And there are two sides to it. None of these are clear enough for me to say it's safe or not safe. They do tell me that there needs to be some research.

    http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2011/02/butane_hash_dangers_edibles.php

    http://medicalmarijuana.com/experts/expert/title.cfm?artID=70

    http://skunkpharmresearch.com/bho-extraction/

    http://tokesignals.com/hash-oil-safety-dont-become-another-statistic/

    http://www.leafly.com/news/lifestyle/is-dabbing-good-or-bad-or-both

    http://www.myfoxny.com/story/25073253/officials-cooking-and-smoking-hash-oil-poses-grave-dangers

    http://thephoenix.com/boston/news/152146-hash-oil-medicinal-or-solvent-laden-scare/

    http://www.theweedblog.com/what-is-marijuana-butane-hash-oil-bho-and-is-it-safe/

    http://www.hightimes.com/read/dab-or-not-dab
     
  23. GR

    GR Well-Known Member

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  24. Quetzalcoatl

    Quetzalcoatl SPACE GOD

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    If you read the stuff you linked, they're saying to make it outside because confined spaces + butane + spark = explosions.

    "Here is Vector Butane's MSDS, the butane product most BHO is made with. It's not toxic, but is extremely flammable."

    I find it hard to trust Matt Rize since he has his whole "my ice wax rocks hash oil is bad but look at my $100 shatterbros grams" agenda.

    "Further, if homemade hash oil isn't properly "washed," solvents and other chemicals might be left behind — including pesticides, if the marijuana used to make the hash oil was treated with them."

    Again, like I keep mentioning, purge properly and use good starting material and you're going to be okay.

    The High Times article that you linked at the end is the exact same article that has the "hydrocarbons aren't dangerous in small amounts" bit I quoted some posts up.

    ".000,000, 055 X .000, 0035 = .000,000,000,000,192 or 200 parts per quadrillion in the butane used for extraction.

    Assuming a 40 gram trim extraction, using 300 ml of butane, and yielding only 10%, 300 ml butane would deposit .000,000,000,058 ml of 1,4 Dichlorbenzene in 4 grams of concentrate.

    .000, 000, 000, 058 ml X 1.2475 gms per ml = .000,000,000,072 grams of 1,4 Dichlorobenzene in 4 grams of concentrate.

    .000,000.000,072 grams divided by 4 grams =.000,000,000,018 or 18 parts per trillion.

    110 ppm TWA Ceiling (.000, 110) divided by residual 1,4 Dichlorobenzene level of 18 parts per trillion (.000,000,000,018) = 6,111,111 or about one six millionth (1/6,000,000th) of maximum allowable exposure level.

    4 grams of oil will produce about 20 200 mg hits, so each hit would be about 1/20th of 1/6,000, 000, so exposure per hit would be about 1/1,200,000,000 of the 110 ppm maximum."

    Emphasis mine, just to point out what kind of ballparks we're talking about.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
  25. r-bot

    r-bot New Member

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    You answered your own question, you need to do some research!

    All the misinformation out there that says butane is poisonous are from uneducated sources.
     
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