Discussion in 'Portable Vaporizers' started by Dan Morrison, Mar 26, 2016.
Thanks for taking the time to put your experience down in words KZ!
Absolutely fascinating to see master craftsman getting real time feedback and acting on it. I've said it before: watching this whole process is like reading a cliff hanger novel, but the author and reader interact to make readers (customers in this case) even more happy. Dan , you are the Man, so excited watching this journey to my second batch nomad unfold. Thanks KZ For in depth review. Cheers! D
I want to print out @KeroZen s' review, frame it, and put it up in the shop.
@KeroZen, thanks for your detailed thoughts on the Nomad. I really appreciate the insight while I wait for my unit.
I prefer to call it "energy efficient" but Yeh I am that lazy. Personally I prefer the idea of a screen over the heater but your point about it being lower in the device and therefore harder to see is noted. I look forward to playing with all the screen configs but like water I'll always tend towards the path of least resistance.
Heater modules / variable air intake suggestion
Before I delve into this part which undoubtedly will be quite substantial, as there is a lot to say, I would like to make a suggestion to conclude on the air-flow topic: while it would be hard to achieve given the current heater module design due to that tiny protruding grub screw on the side (which by the way Dan you promised you would explain in the "advanced manual", is it just for assembly / servicing?), with little extra cost and effort I think it would be possible to easily implement a variable air-intake system.
If that grub screw was not there or just slightly moved closer to the rim of the outer SS ring, you could just stack two heater shield discs on top of each other (possibly slightly thinner if that's possible to achieve with PEEK? With the blackwood it would be more difficult I imagine or even impossible) Each disc would have the same hole pattern as we have now, but by rotating one against the other, you could open or close the holes at will (it's a technique used in many 510 e-cig attachments to implement variable air flow)
Easier said than done but surely more elegant than using a piece of rolling paper to cover the sleeve bottom hole (something I can't even do when using the vape naked)
Heater modules / usage review
I love the concept of a modular heater, this is brilliant really and it opens up so many possibilities! At first I thought the high power heater wouldn't be for me: way too strong, too easy to scorch, requiring possibly a draw speed bigger than what my old lungs could comfortably provide, but like for the screens again I was wrong, it definitely found its place in my routine!
My favourite heater is clearly the low power one. At first I wondered why Dan even bothered to label them "mid-low" and "mid-high". To me they were so different beasts, one was clearly low and the other clearly high. But that was without taking the battery charge level parameter into account.
There is sweet spot where the power bands of each heaters almost crosses. The low heater is wonderful for the first two bowls but it's damn pushy for the third bowl on the same cell. You really need to work these hits out as soon as you get close to or under 3.7V.
On the other hand the high power heater is way too wild for me on a fresh cell. I can't even count to 3 with the trigger pushed otherwise I scorch the load and the taste is spoilt (that is again, of course with my particular draw speed and usage pattern) It feels like an overpowered first-generation Milaana: miss the beat once and the bowl is ruined, you'll never get that taste back. Miss the beat badly and you'll combust for sure.
What I discovered though, is that if I swap heaters for the 3rd (and possibly 4th session) then the beast is tamed (almost though, still need to be careful on the trigger) It allows me to use my cell capacity down to 3.4V without struggling like with the low power heater which feels very anemic when the voltage gets low.
Beware that the high power heater will continue to produce vapor way past the safe discharge point. I ended at 2.6V once and the thing was happily steaming like a train until the very end! You could achieve that with the low power heater but you would need to continuously press the trigger and draw for very long (which is a bit uncomfortable on the lungs and can make you a bit dizzy due to oxygen deprivation, at least it does to me)
I don't use water filtration but I'm convinced the high power heater module would be the best bet for you iron lungs guys. Same for concentrates, can't comment, but my intuition tells me it would be better suited than the low power one.
With the low power heater, I finally get the comfort that I have with my Zion: slow extraction with very little risk of scorching the load. The taste stays brilliant until the very end. Contrast that with the FM5-Nano and all conduction vapes where the taste is good only when you stay at low temperature levels then degrades in no time as soon as you bump up.
The low power heater is very forgiving and feels "organic" in use. You don't have to think about it, you don't need to count mentally how long you press the trigger. You can press it the whole hit and the temperature will not go up and down like a saw wave, it's smooth like the Zion. No need to feather like in the Milaana and MVT to ride the wave up and down.
The Nomad comes very close to Zion quality vapor and comfort of use. Minus the voltage regulation (you have to take the cell voltage drop into account and adjust accordingly) I think with a longer stem I wouldn't be able to tell any difference in vapor quality and taste between the two (excepted maybe that super faint nichrome taste, but again it's nowhere near obvious it's very subtle) Really excellent, bravo!
Also don't think the low power heater can not be a beast, that would be wrong and you would be surprised. You can get, given the proper technique, quite dense vapour and what I would call very fat clouds from my point of view.
Heater modules / some facts
I don't know if it's due to the current heat wave we have in Europe but the heater modules appeared to be easier to insert and remove when I first got the vape. Now there is some friction.
Surprisingly I find them easier to swap when the vape is hot rather than when it's cold.
I second the fact that PEEK is probably very safe for this application: the heater shield disc is barely warm at the end of a session. Even the heater outer SS sleeve can be grabbed without getting burned, quite incredible isn't it?
I went with the blackwood discs as I'm not fond of plastics in general. I don't know if the wood contributes any smell. In fact it's so smooth I even wondered if it was really blackwood and if Dan didn't send me PEEK instead just to see if I could really spot the difference lol! There is no grain pattern that I can discern... Well at least, I would suggest to not put any finish on that part in order to minimize parasitic smells, but so far it's a non existent problem.
Using a 4-wire measurement ohm-meter I got a reading between the center pin and the grub screw of 0.49ohm for the high-power heater and 0.66ohm for the low-power heater. But this must be taken with a grain of salt as 1) it's pretty damn hard to measure such low resistances 2) probe contact resistance plays a big role 3) the points I selected are maybe not representative (I tried probing at the bottom of the SS shell but it's too hard to probe a round smooth surface like that)
It's a bit surprising because 0.49ohm would only yield 36W on an ideal power source of 4.2V. Yet this module feels hotter and more powerful than my Milaana (I forgot the figure for mine, it's somewhere in the Mi thread) But efficiency comes into play here: there's no glass sleeve mass surrounding the heater to sink heat so we have less losses (implying the Nomad is more efficient)
The low heater would yield a maximum of 27W on that same ideal source. Of course with aged cells plus their intrinsic voltage sag we get less watts in practice, but it's easier to compare vape heaters powers at their nominal maximum voltage even if it's not realistic.
In practice though, and given my usage pattern, I'm getting about 3.5 bowls per charge. I tend to do 3 to not push the cell too hard. It's been a long time since I last used my Milaana but from memory it was closer to 2.5 bowls with the same cells.
Interestingly it was long thought that conduction vapes were more efficient but I seem to only get 4 bowls per charge out of the same cell in the new FM5-Nano. The difference is not that big in practice. Or well 4 vs 3 could well mean 8 vs 6 or 16 vs 12 depending on your load size and how fast you cash it, so there still is a difference but the ratio is less than I imagined it would be.
Thanks for the in depth, and thorough review and thoughts on your first run Nomad @KeroZen, I greatly appreciate this level of insight to your thoughts (except for that West-world cliff-hanger you ).
I was very surprised to read @CL52613s reaction to your critique, as I did not feel your criticism was over the top, or malicious in any way.
I don't feel any need for fancy packaging myself (bubble wrap and an envelope will do for me, but as you say, some will feel differently).
Flavour is my thing now, it wasn't when I first started vaping, but with experience it has risen to near the top of my requirements for a vape, so I hope that I don't taste the metallic or 'blood' tang that you described.
But I can see your comments on this for what they are (IMO), an in depth report of what YOU are experiencing, not a claim that we will all taste this.
I have often read comments here on FC re' taste that I disagree strongly with, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be made.
Dan wants feedback, and obviously it would be best for him if it were all glowing praise without reservation, but that isn't realistic, and he knows that.
I doubt very much that he feels attacked in the way CL52613 suggests.
Us sensitive creative types often get hit hard by criticism, but I bet Dan won't let it affect him unduly, he comes across as fairly pragmatic and robust to me.
There might be suggestions etc in your write-up that he disagrees with (me too), but I bet that he would just politely decline that particular suggestion rather than get bent out of shape over it.
Please don't stop reporting your thoughts, we need to know!
Same goes for your suggestions (again I don't agree with all of them, so what?), keep 'em coming I say.
I imagine it can be very frustrating for a maker to spend months or even years considering every aspect of a product, only to be told by someone that they think they have a better solution, but Dan doesn't strike me as the type to take excessive umbrage at that.
I see no reason that you or anyone else on FC should not give honest feedback on any device, and I personally didn't feel that you were pushing some sort of agenda (besides informing your fellow members of your take on the Nomad).
Even when I think I might disagree with opinions here, I'd still like to read them (short of deliberate untruths or trolling) and I appreciate you and others taking the time to post such a lengthy and clearly carefully considered opinion.
It's very important that we not discourage makers such as Dan from pushing the tech' the way Dan is, but it's also very important that we do not discourage honest opinion from customers either, dissenting or not.
I'm glad the stem size is as you describe, as I too feel that half way between 18mm and 14mm is the sweet spot for convection vapes.
After trying both sizes fairly extensively, I have made several wood stems for my Milaana, and I have been experimenting with various diameters between the two, and ended up with my favourites being almost bang-on halfway between the two.
I really look forward to the Nomad stem, it seems perfect to me.
I have some exceptionally short stems for my Milaana's, and the 'hot' vapour doesn't bother me in the least, so I doubt that I'll need anything longer than the planned MP, but given that there seems to be demand for all sorts of long stems with various cooling schemes, I don't doubt that there would be a market for a longer stem.
There isn't a vape out there that hasn't been modded or had an accessory made to further cool the vapour they produce!
KeroZens review hasn't diminished my enthusiasm for the Nomad (or Dan, or even KeroZen!) one iota, I don't believe it was intended to, and I really think it shouldn't affect others enthusiasm either.
Sorry for rambling!
Technique and ease of use
In my tl;dr introduction I said the Nomad was not a vape for beginners. I think I need to elaborate on that point. Firstly, any unregulated vape (i.e. mech-mod equivalent in the e-cig world) using removable Li-Ion cells would be instantly labeled "not for beginners" in my book.
Those cells are outright dangerous, you need to educate yourself on the various cells themselves, then their intrinsic dangers, how to cater for and nurture them, etc. It's quite involved. There is no protection at all in this vape, the burden is on the user.
I use my Nomad as my only daily driver when outside but I still need to carry a mod-box with me to check cell voltages and to charge them. I need to keep track of the number of sessions I had with every cell to know if I can get an extra one or if I need to swap. For sure you can feel the power go down but as I said if you insist enough with the low heater or if you keep going on with the high heater, you'll discharge past the point where the cell is irreversibly damaged.
Damaged cells then become a potential danger as it's a vicious circle afterwards...
Then apart from that aspect, it's a manual vape and it's surely too much free-flowing for a lot of users. You need to develop a technique to use it, you need to watch a lot of parameters that can alter the outcome of your session:
battery charge level
packing / tamping amount
distance between load and heater
heater module selected
I'm surely forgetting some. Might sound easy for you advanced users, but clearly a lot of complexity for a complete beginner! A lot of things to take into account and to explain.
As for the free-flowing aspect, it will surprise most of you at first. With the low heater you need to draw so slowly, it's hard to get it right at first. I find that puffing with the cheeks like a cigar helps it get going, then once you feel the warm vapor pouring into your mouth, you can start increasing speed and doing a direct-to-lungs hit.
So it's not really mouth-to-lung, nor really direct-to-lungs either. It really requires a particular technique. Maybe slightly less air-flow (smaller holes?) on the low heater could help, I don't know?
The downside I found is that it's hard to get good hits when you are walking. When I'm focused and sitting no problem, when I'm in movement I tend to draw too hard (well you breath faster when you walk fast so that seems normal, it's hard to slow down your breath unless you slow down your walking pace)
I can't comment much on the high power heater as I didn't test it thoroughly enough. It's maybe the contrary here: you need to draw fast enough or you'll scorch. I will investigate further but for now I've only been using it for my 3rd bowl when the cell voltage is low.
I love this vape. Don't misinterpret my remarks as criticism, I'm just giving feedback and suggestions about possible improvements. I'm also known to be a nit-picker around this place, those who know me should not be surprised.
I stand by my remarks about the safety concerns, as the danger is real. Google some images of "ecig explosion" to see ripped apart hands with missing bits and guys with missing teeth and severe burns on half the face if you don't believe me. I spare the rest of you the graphical and gory content so you'll sleep well tonight, but really it's gross.
I don't think asking for a few spare o-rings and screens in the package is insulting in any way, we all know how little they cost and Dan is forming screens by the dozen so... I don't care about the lack of packaging though, never expected any, just mentioned it for the contrast with the FM5-Nano I happen to be testing at the same time.
For the technique part, I think reducing the low-power heater air flow would help *maybe*. More testing and validation needed. A variable air-flow would solve these issues once for good.
For the dicky contacts we'll find solutions and cleaning routines I'm sure.
For the nichrome smell, it's present for sure but as I said it's quite hard to detect it in the vapor itself. Would stainless steel help? Probably, but some steels also have a smell when hot. Also keep in mind I happen to be ultra sensitive to smells, I can for instance detect the slightest amount of silicone in my vapes where other members are perfectly fine with that (there is *a lot* of variation in the way humans can smell)
Apart from that everything else is more than positive. It's one of my favorites vapes, if not my favorite (hard to dethrone the Zion though, but it's more a cordless desktop than a portable)
Conclusion: buy two! Or well no, don't, because you should leave some for other members to enjoy too don't be selfish!
I agreed with everything you said. Although I'm less about flavour and more about getting those heavier body buzz type effects. I am starting to learn that I can get both though by starting at low temps and then ramping up but this conflicts with my current one rip and done technique.
Everything @KeroZen has said so far is about what I expected considering the other feedback we have had and the design of the Nomad.
I really like @KeroZen's airflow restriction disc idea.
This just makes me want to play Super Mario Land.
Now to answer the posts that were interleaved with my review:
Yeah no, as it is the gap is so small that a badly worn wrap could *in theory* be problematic. But you are perfectly right: the same failure mode with the battery the other way round would be also a disaster. But at least it wouldn't be instant, it would only happen when you press the trigger.
Yes of course but as you said stoners will always be stoners. I already ripped apart the top wrapping of two of my HE4's just by swiveling the contact bridge, and I thought I was careful. The bridge fell between the white disc and the wrap and made a knick in the wrap, exposing the negatively charged shell.
Right I forgot the interface between bronze plate and heater module, that could be the culprit. Although I swear I solved the issue just by wiping the bridge a few times and not rotating the heater module itself.
For the bronze button back plate I swabbed with alchoohol when I disassembled the button. Maybe something more aggressive would be in order. Waiting for your instructions.
No I won't. Please just ignore me and stop misspelling my nickname.
As @Copacetic noted, @KeroZen was stating his own impressions, so it’s all good. But, I feel I must state my thought on one key point: NO, Dan, DO NOT SHIP BUTTONS WITH BUD INSIDE! We need you on the outside, where you can continue to produce beautiful wood products and fine vaporizers.
BTW, @Dan Morrison, are you still producing salt-and-pepper shakers? I’d love to surprise my wife with a set. She saw them on Instagram, and I think I saw a little drool dripping from her chin.
Oh my god, It's like vape Christmas. You have no idea how awesome it is to be getting feedback, especially when it's so thoughtful.
I value critiques of my work so very much. I see them as opportunities to view my work from a different perspective, to improve, to grow as a maker. I really just eat it all up.
I hope that my presence here won't discourage anyone from sharing their true feelings.
This is an interesting topic... I think every maker thinks about it.
On one hand... you're deeper into the 'thing' than anyone else... so you feel like all of your design choices are justified, on the other... you're so absorbed that you've lost perspective. This is further complicated by the fact that I aim to create a product, something both aesthetic and functional, that has to appeal to a wide range of unique people.
In the end, you can't satisfy everyone... but you try to. So there-in lies the frustration. Who do you listen to? Does one design choice appeal to the most people? Can you justify it if it's a compromise for others? Where is that balance. That's the tough part. I mostly do what feel right to me and that seems to be a good starting point at least.
But, to grow, it's important to be continually questioning your path, and hearing other peoples thoughts has only lead to greater clarity in my experience.
@KeroZen I will be answering the questions directed at me that you had peppered in there... I'll get to it tonight I hope! I want to give a thorough response.
One quick point. Alcohol won't have any effect on the oxide that's formed on the bronze. It will remove contaminates for sure, oils, grease, etc.. But to remove the oxide you need to use the abrasive cleaning pads that I've included in the care packages... which should be there any day now!
I'm completing the usage/care tutorial today, with the care package items included.
I've also included a pre-made 'tool' that will enlarge the heater module hole super easily, so that as your Nomad gets used to it's new life as a vape, you can touch up the diameter to where it's perfect.
@RelaxedNow - I produce those pepper mills for gifts, sorry... but right now I can't focus on anything but Nomads... just no time! Thanks though! I believe that if vaporizers didn't exist... I'd probably be making functional house wares as a living. Definitely my second favourite things to make.
As fate has it I too will be joining the nomad movement. Just had issue with another mod where batteries wrapping too thick so seem the LGHG2 are the way too go for both. IMR is out of stock so is ILLUMN still a good place for real batteries?
Once I have her in my hands tomorrow I should have a spare time to try her out. I will try will post some early thoughts. I have a few other wood vaporizers and mostly gone for the stock wood offered. Being able to snag a maple burl was too good to pass up.
With my hand issues the button press has slightly worried but sounds like replacing the spring is easy. Battery issue is long as the hg2 fit I be good to go. Have to grab some for mod anyways. Plus it's a good battery overall. Most my batteries are at least year old so don't mind replacing a few.
Well, darn, @Dan Morrison, I’m disappointed. I suspected that was the case though, and completely understand.
Care Package Usage Tutorial
In the above link, you'll find a pictorial that covers how to use the materials included in your care packages.
I recommend that every one does this so that you'll be sure you're getting the best performance out of your Nomad.
I do apologize for the fact that you even have to do these cleaning steps.. But hopefully once you've done them, you won't have to do it again for a very long time.
And future batches will be sent out with these modifications already completed, except for the fine-tuning of the heater module hole... which I think is best left to the end user to do.
@HerbieVonVapster , ILLUMN has HE4 cells for $4.50. That's what I use, I really like em.
Thanks I almost picked up the HG2 and I see there a tad larger. I'm going grab a couple of the HE4 instead.
The Nomad in the care package tutorial looks wonderful, a thing of beauty! Who's the lucky owner?
I knew I would forget a lot of details but I already wrote so much at the same time... But there are yet 3 things I thought about afterwards:
- About the bridge shorting the cell: let's be clear, the bridge "nipple" (there's a tip under the end of the bridge arm that goes to the battery, the arm that goes to the heater pin being flat) is so small I'm not even sure it could physically touch both the center positive terminal and the negative cell rim/lip at the same time.
LG cells have a positive terminal with 4 legs. I double checked and it was nearly impossible to make the arm and nipple fall under the white insulation disc. Samsung cells on the other hand have a terminal with 3 legs only. When I had the arm falling under the disc I think it was when I was still using the 30Q's.
But so you would have to put the arm under the disc and keep swiveling while applying pressure and *possibly* then you could short one of the terminal legs with the negative lip. Honestly this is very unlikely and still unproven. But all it takes is a single accident to set a house afire... why take any risk? By inserting the cell the other way round this is no longer an issue: you can scratch the entire bottom negative terminal all you want, it's flat and there's nothing to short.
The problem is that until we get a vent hole and a larger battery slot, I can not recommend inserting the cell this way. Better have an unlikely short than a sure explosion, because it's so tight, the pressure would really build up. If these changes come to fruition then I'll change my stance, until then you should have the positive terminal facing out like Dan recommended in the manual.
I'm linking a few crappy quality pictures (sorry low light it's late and everybody is asleep here) In the first pic you can see how the arm made a dent in the wrap of this HE4 cell. In the second picture you can see how small the arm tip is (keep in mind the nipple is even smaller, you can see its butt showing a different color inside the copper) so you can judge that indeed it would be hard to align it exactly to create any short.
- About the possibility of the button contact screw tip "smearing" and preventing insertion of the Allen key: again this is pure speculation from my part based on how soft I think bronze can be. It could take years to happen if it happens at all.
But maybe Dan could create a small counter-sink on the top part of the Allen slot. Very lightly as to not lower the contact surface area too much, but just enough to prevent any metal from "advancing" due to the friction and blocking the slot? I'm probably over-thinking it and creating a non-problem though.
- Finally about the "heat imprint" of the high-power heater that I noticed once: upon closer inspection tonight, I noticed that the colored part of the heater coil (sign that it was exposed to high heat) seems to be correlated to the imprint shape I saw.
I don't know if it will show on the last pictures linked, the high heater is on the left and the low on the right. But you may see that the colored part of the coil makes an offset circle while the rest is still shiny. Maybe this part is heating less? Maybe also it's just because I didn't use this module as much as the other?
The low heater coil seems to be colored almost everywhere spare maybe just the outer winding. I'll try to see if it is correlated to the evenness of the load browning or not. Maybe by purposely scorching a bowl for science?
I'm probably again over-thinking things...
PS: I'm trying tinypic.com, don't know how long the links will last...
A friend of mine!
I fear that even battery vent slots and a larger bore will still not be enough to relieve the pressure in the case of a meltdown.
I think I have a better solution, I've been giving the connector bridge a lot of thought. I'd like to see a connector bridge that physically cannot, under any circumstance, short the cell. Even if the cell had its wrapper entirely removed. Wheels are turning.
As you've noticed, I did try to shape the connector bridge so that it would be very unlikely to short the cell... but also, you are correct in voicing the dangers, and I don't think they can be stressed enough! So thank you for that!
And damn! That's some crazy wrap damage. I've haven't managed to do anything like that yet... but It's good to know what can happen. I think I mentioned this before.. but I'm always reminded that whatever can happen, will happen.
I'm confident that this is a non-issue. It's one of those things that seems like it would happen... but in reality, the constant wiping of the brass contact screw against the battery creates almost no wear. More than a year in daily use and my screw looks practically new. Brass is designed for that sort of work. If It ever happens, hell, I'll mail ya a new screw!
The coils will show variations in the oxide colours. But this is mostly from the final heat treating step of the manufacturing process.
I also take every finished coil through a burn-in process, and work out any hot-spots or shorts between ribbons. A hot spot will show up as an uneven coloration, but once the hot-spot is eliminated, the coil glows evenly.
So, likely the colouration differences are leftover artifacts of those processes.
BUT, since these coils are hand wound... and go through so many steps... it's practically impossible to keep them Perfectly even. So, there will be some variation. I'm definitely working on methods to improve the consistency of the coils, but I fear that it will lead me down a rabbit hole of some very specialized shit, hah. The trick is to keep things at a reasonable price!
Post replies to be continued....
Wow, that care package tutorial is very detailed and well explained, great job as always Dan.
I really love how user-serviceable the nomad is. It makes it feel like it will always be repairable even if you can't ship it back to Dan, and to me that adds a lot of value.
I will say that having to fiddle with the heater insulator setscrew constantly would be annoying, I'm glad I didn't go with blackwood for mine.
Thank you so much for the reviews @KeroZen !
This is something I always look for and appreciate in a product!
Nomad #017 is here in Siberia, vaping my tobaccos gracefully. My two top favorites, Lotus and Air, enjoy some rest deserved. Nomad has nice taste, like Lotus, and handles 30-40 puffs session, like Air. This is why it is my #1 vape already, thorougly choosed among the good for tobacco vapes like Mighty, Firefly 2, CFX, Hammer, various Vaporgenies, Project/Eraser/SF and some lesser vapes. I will post detailed expressions later.
@Dan Morrison , what's about an abrasive glass fibre cleaning pen for cleaning of the contacts?
I officially inform that I’ve changed my avatar and signature.
Well just unpacked mine and although didn't need the paramedics she definitely has already caused my blood pressure to increase.
I been waiting around for the mail all morning. A few mins ago happen see the mailman driving off. I limped to the door and to my surprise no package.
Was bummed and concerned only other option was the mailbox. There's no way a package would fit in there. But I was worried...I needed to check. Is she siting in there when it's over 90 out?
Being a group mailbox it sit's around 150 yards away in full sun.
Well you never seen someone with a cane move as fast as i did. I open the mailbox and there's a package in it! But it's so small and light and I still needed to get back home. My good hand is using the cane. Other hand doesn't function well and not going risk dropping it.
So I stuffed it my shirt. Musta looked like a madman hobble home clutching that little package in my shirt.
By the time I got in the house and got package open my heart was racing like crazy.
Part two too follow..
Joking...she's here, even after reading these post and seeing tons of pictures. It not till you hold one that you realize how unique and beautiful these are.
Well I'm off to try my first stem. I just posted this story well waiting for heart to settle down a bit. Will post some thoughts later on.
Separate names with a comma.