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TC Box Mods Firmware Discussions and Customizing

Discussion in 'DIY' started by Pipes, Feb 5, 2017.

  1. bizwaxzion

    bizwaxzion Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    56
    I've been using the arcticfox firmware for a week now on both my pico and vtwo mini. I started by just mapping the same TCR numbers I had used with the stock firmware and got satisfactory results but observed some wide temp variations with device monitor. The pico has always had a tendency to overshoot temp so this was not surprising. This first graph is the pico/dtv3-13mm combo using TCR 345/24w/420F with boost 2s preheat and stock temp control. Temperature spikes over 50 degrees too high.

    [​IMG]

    Decided to see if the PI regulator could calm this down a little and started trying out different values for P and I. Thanks to @ander for the graphs above showing how P and I relate, I've settled on P=1000 and I=20. This is the same pico/dtv3-13mm using TCR 348/30w/400F no preheat and PI temp control. IR thermometer (e=0.65) says donut temp is right on.

    [​IMG]

    I'll probably raise the power a little more to heat the donut from cold a little faster, but I'm pretty happy with the results so far.
     
  2. exile1975

    exile1975 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10
    Thanks @bizwaxzion for the great post! I was using 345/30W/400F before reading this. Seeing that our numbers were so similar I decided to plug in your p/I values. I'm very glad I did. I'm using a pico dual with Arctic fox and the combination is very nice for me. I was wondering tho if you've had the chance to look into using it with the V2 DC? I'd love to hear your input with regards to the dry herb atty if you've tried it.....
     
  3. bizwaxzion

    bizwaxzion Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    56
    I just picked up a DCv2 from @divinetribe a couple days ago. Running it on my vTwo mini with AFF (170603). Using TCR 300 I was not getting the temperature I wanted so I pushed TCR to 400, but this results in a [fairly repeatable] TCR error (upper limit seems to be 375). I notice with device monitor that there's a plateau in the heatup curve and I think if the TCR value is too high the mod believes the coil is not heating fast enough and kicks it out an error (on stock firmware probably switches to VW mode). I'm going to do some data collection and see if I can build a TFR curve for this atty. I've built a TFR curve for the 10mm donut - but since the donuts seem to be pretty linear when heating it's performance is not much different from TCR mode.
     
  4. divinetribe

    divinetribe We are trying our hardest to become Medical Grade Manufacturer

    Messages:
    209
    Location:
    Arcata, Humboldt California
    not sure why it's not working what is your ohm reading ? should be around .77 - .8 when cold
     
  5. bizwaxzion

    bizwaxzion Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    56
    It's working just fine Matt, I'm trying to unify actual with on screen temperature - ohm reading is right in range when cold. Raising TCR will increase the actual temperature because it allow for higher resistance change. With a 300 TCR and 370F on the mod I was seeing around 315F with an IR thermometer. Never saw any TCR errors at 300, but when I pushed it to 400 and tried I could not get temps above 155F. When I looked at the mod screen it was reading TCR error. At TCR 380 I get the error maybe 1 in 10 tries. At TCR 375 I've not seen it happen [yet]. What I do observe the mod screen I see quick ramp up to 150-200F then a bit of plateau, then faster ramp from 250-370F. It's right around that 150 mark, when it plateaus, that the error is thrown. With TFR I have control over different sections of the curve and I can maybe work around that flat spot. It could be that TCR 375 is a little too high - in the last bowl I saw two small chunks that looked just a little combusted - but I'm getting nice flavorful hits out of the DCv2.
     
  6. divinetribe

    divinetribe We are trying our hardest to become Medical Grade Manufacturer

    Messages:
    209
    Location:
    Arcata, Humboldt California
    oh i see what's going on here, you guys are taking this to the next level, got it .. lol
    awesome info thanks for doing all these tests..
     
  7. bizwaxzion

    bizwaxzion Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    56
    After spending a good portion of the weekend testing out the DCv2, I'm getting very predictable results using TCR value of 350 and I believe the oven temp is close to the mod screen display (+- 10F). This was checked with an IR thermometer on the outside of the oven wall (base removed). ArcticFox profile is TCR 350 at 33 watts with a 2s 42 watt preheat and PI regulator set to 50% P=900 and I=10. I do a 10s heat up, then 4-5 full 15s draws and get visible vapor on each. I do not stir - but I will pop off the mouthpiece and clear the holes once in the middle. The ABV is nice and evenly brown. It gets fairly hot during use, but cools down quickly. Enlightened a couple [full time combustors] friends this weekend with it - thanks Matt, great product!
     
  8. supershredderdan

    supershredderdan Manufacturer

    Messages:
    58

    What is your avg cold resistance? Most people tend to report .77-.8 but my black dcv2's oven is .75, how would I adjust your settings to my resistance or is it even enough of a difference to matter?
     
  9. Vape Donkey 650

    Vape Donkey 650 All vape, no smoke please.

    Messages:
    323
    Location:
    Northern California
    I have one heater for the dc which is about 0.75 and another that is closer to 0.8, so your range is good.

    With Tcr mode, and such a small difference in coils, you should be able to use biz's settings no problem.

    If youre concerned by the difference, plug into the nfe monitor to watch its behavior on some dry runs (with airflow) to see what it does and if it might need any adjustment on the settings
     
  10. bizwaxzion

    bizwaxzion Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    56
    Should not need to change anything. Tcr works based on resistance change so as long as you lock it cold ypu should be fine. You might even notice that different mods report different readings for the same atomizer.
     
  11. oddjobold

    oddjobold Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    224
    Anyone know if you can change the fire button time out on artic fox like with myevic?

    Is so whats the max number of seconds? Just trying to decide what firmware to load.
     
    Pipes likes this.
  12. Haywood

    Haywood Onward Thru the Fog

    Messages:
    626
    Yes, you can set it to whatever you want. I set mine to 15 seconds.
     
    Vape Donkey 650 likes this.
  13. oddjobold

    oddjobold Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    224
    Do you know what menu its under by any chance?
     
  14. Haywood

    Haywood Onward Thru the Fog

    Messages:
    626
    I'm not at home and I don't have any of my mods with me. I do remember it was in the menus in the application, not in the mod itself.
     
  15. Haywood

    Haywood Onward Thru the Fog

    Messages:
    626
    jpdnkstr likes this.
  16. oddjobold

    oddjobold Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    224
    Thanks a lot
     
    jpdnkstr likes this.
  17. DigginVaper

    DigginVaper New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Oppenheimer, Feynman, bizwaxzion and Einstein. After this post, I see these four names belonging in the same category. :)

    Thanks mate, you have just turned me "pretty good" DT Gen2 Arctic Fox profile into what will probably become my portable daily driver of choice. Words cannot express.

    Thanks again.
     
    jpdnkstr likes this.
  18. bizwaxzion

    bizwaxzion Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    56
    Wow - good company. Thanks for the kind words and welcome to FC.
     
    jpdnkstr likes this.
  19. Vape Donkey 650

    Vape Donkey 650 All vape, no smoke please.

    Messages:
    323
    Location:
    Northern California
    I started messing around with the PI controller on some of my AF / myev mods that power my fleet of DT V3 donut attys. They were already running pretty well just in plain TCR mode, but I wanted to see if I can take the temperature stability to a new level like @bizwaxzion has observed.

    So I started with his values of P 900 I 20 (he turned down the P from his earlier post here, shared in the DT thread) and with my settings of TCR 200, 28w, and around 390-435F, and I enjoyed some immediate benefits:

    An earlier "ramping down" of wattage before protection, it slows down earlier before reaching protection for a minimal overshoot, if any

    Better apparent temp / wattage stability, much less fluctuation. I would see 5-15F swings (but not constant or wild) in the course of a typical puff with no PI control, and watts anywhere from 7-15 during the swings. Now I see about 3-7F as my typical range of calculated temp oscillation, and the watts output is much more stable, often staying around 10-12w for stretches of several seconds. This is good!

    The downside: it was not even reaching protection! :lol: (Do you see this also, biz? No?) I was seeing on-screen temps 10-15F below what I set, rarely, if at all, hitting my target or going over protection. I was offsetting this by simply setting temps 10-15F higher than what I normally would, but this was annoying, so I experimented with PI some more:

    1000, 20, was not doing much. 900, 30, not much different, 90, 40, the same.

    Finally, bumping it to P 900, I 60 seems to make my donuts do what I like. :nod:

    Keeping the enhanced temp / watt stability, an earlier ramp-down of watts before target, and less overshoot, but it is reaching my target temp, or very close under! :tup:

    And yes, I know, I should have connected the mods to the NFE device monitor to make some pretty graphs to post, but I was being lazy from all my testing :science: Besdies seeing detailed stats, the quality and quantity of the vapor I was watching being produced and passed through my glass bulb as I inhaled it was all the verification I needed!

    Indeed, you cannot change the puff cut-off timer in arcticfox from the mod itself (not connected to a computer) the way you can in myevic. I was unsure of this myself when I saw the question first, but quickly confirmed it when I looked at one of my AF mods.

    This seems lacking, you can set most other important functions from the mod in AF. :shrug:(someone go complain in NFE forums for us :D)

    However, in AF, the cut-off is limited to a max of 15 seconds, it seems. The AF config tool won't let me input a value higher than that. In myevic, you can set it higher, apparently. This is also somewhat annoying. I just started playing with a new atty that you need to hold the fire button down for long periods; it would be nice to set a 30 or 60 second cut-off.

    Almost makes me consider "down-grading" an AF mod back to myev just for that. Or even better, flashing a version of the "tubomyevic" with cruise-mode onto an old cuboid so I can be huffing away big time without worrying about the button. :ko: (I don't think @funkyjunky would mind? :D) I think the tubomyevic would also be a great addition for a mod powering the DC v2 herb. Too bad that firmware doesn't support the latest round of joye-leaf-leaux mods :(
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
    funkyjunky likes this.
  20. Vape Donkey 650

    Vape Donkey 650 All vape, no smoke please.

    Messages:
    323
    Location:
    Northern California
    Hi box modders, donut vapers, I've been playing around with the PI control some more from my last post, and I think it's worthwhile to offer some updates:

    First off, it seems arcticfox and myevic have different parameters for the PI control, or some of the different mods and particular attys I'm using them with need quite different variables to vape nice, powerfully and evenly as I like.

    It seems myevic benefits from slightly higher "I" values for a DT V3 donut (10mm at least) than it needs with arcticfox. That is what I saw on my first PI testing with some cuboid minis, vtc minis and myevic.

    But on arcticfox: 900, 20 for PI seems to work spot on, just like bizwax had shared with us earlier. Quick ramp up, well timed ramp-down of watts for minimal overshoot, very stable watt and temp range. Using 900, 60 like my last post with AF resulted in excessive temp overshoot. :( I took some NFE monitor screen grabs to show now.

    This is a cuboid, TCR 200, 28w, 400F, PI 900 20 on AF170628 with a DTV3 10mm donut. These are reclaim hits at the end of the session, which explains the lower-than-usual watt load. It sees higher wattage on a fresh reload.
    [​IMG]

    Just for extreme comparison, below, this is the next hit, same settings, but PI control disabled. You can see the watts oscillates wildly before flattening out. These are the "transient atomizer shorts" that were a problem with AF a few releases ago which are largely fixed now. The good news, as bad as this graph looks, I still got a non-burned cloud, almost as even as with PI control. (those temp spikes are more theoretical, not real)

    [​IMG]

    And a weird phenomena i see on some of my V3 donuts, is a rising live-resistance reading when the mod isn't being fired. :mental: I've put great effort into finding the cause of this, ensuring the wire leads are clean and tight, 510 connectors clean and firm. When I contact the donut with a dab tool and nudge it laterally, like when scooping up reclaim, it can make the live resistance jump, so I conclude it must be contact related, or a somewhat faulty V3 base. Despite this weirdness, it still works fine.... (i had a pic of this after the puff but missed it, but I got another example on the last mod in this post)


    Here below is one more of the cuboid, vaping nicely with PI control. This puff just about emptied my donut and cup
    [​IMG]

    Now, pivot back to the old myevic...

    My earlier preferred settings of 900, 60 for PI (D at 0) seemed still a bit sluggish for me, ramping down wattage too early, helping to completely avoid initial temp overshoot, but taking too long to reach temp. Nudging those figures up while using several different mods, mostly VTC and cuboid minis, I've settled at 1000, 70 for PI on myevic now, but I still need to evaluate that on a couple more mods.


    [​IMG]
    Pictured above is a VTC mini, 1100, 60 for PI. You can see we got a couple minor spikes, but I think those are more calculated than real, since the vapor output was steady throughout the puff. Temp and wattage bouncing within a narrow, acceptable range. :tup: Like I said, I'm somewhat settling at 1000 70 now, back down from 1100 testing right here. The higher P might account for this spike?

    Now to compare, below here is the same VTC mini and atty, but PID control turned off, stock algo.
    [​IMG]
    Actually, not that bad, right? Doesn't look vastly different, besides the fluke spike of the earlier graph. Despite looking solid on paper, the vapor output feels a bit more steady and cool with PI control enabled. This particular vtc mini and DTV3 has a much more stable live resistance reading than the spikier cuboid pictured earlier, so it just goes to show you can still get pretty good results, no PI, sometimes.

    Last mod in my series, just to compare, a different VTC mini and V3 medium donut, with 1000, 70 for PI. Still myevic here. This is another atty that has some drift on the live resistance reading, which can lead to some funny stuff on the NFE monitor and in actual vaping also, with numbers bouncing around wildly. Probably related to donut lead contact, since it can jump around when touching the donut.

    [​IMG]
    Besides the couple temp spikes, which I think are pretty much flukes (vapor stream is steady throughout the puff), the performance is very good.

    But the live resistance still rises after firing... weird :uhh:
    [​IMG]


    So here below is the same mod and atty, but PI control turned off, you can easily see it's a mess :disgust: It doesn't actually burn up oil, but the vapor stream comes in visibly pulsing, halting puffs corresponding with the oscillating wattage and transient atomizer shorts. :\ No more of that! (this puff is just for a poor demonstration, no more need for that)
    [​IMG]

    So, lots of stuff from me, as usual, hopefully this is of interest to other DT donut vapers who want to fine tune their vaping. I don't know the actual math behind PID control, but just starting from a good baseline setting and having a willingness to tweak it around, I seem to have improved my donuts' performance. :nod:


    Last thing, I want to re-post this graphic showing the general curvature of PID control that @Joaon had posted on this thread a while ago, since I found this instructive.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
    jpdnkstr likes this.
  21. Pavelhonner

    Pavelhonner New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Hi all you sensitive people, I am getting most stable results in AF @ 40W 185TCR, 30% 500P 10I. Rx23 + SF.
     

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