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some info on THC, CBD, CBN effects

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by audiodelic, Dec 29, 2010.

  1. audiodelic

    audiodelic Holy Herb ... Boom Shiva !

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    :ko::o:peace::peace::peace:


    Marijuana

    Cannabinoids (THC, CBD, CBN...)


    The Active Ingredients Of Cannabis

    Cannabinoids are a group of chemicals that can be divided into three different types: natural herbal cannabinoids, natural endogenous cannabinoids, and synthetic cannabinoids.

    Natural herbal cannabinoids are chemicals that occur, in large concentrations, in cannabis plants. They are responsible for the intoxicating effect of cannabis products like marijuana, hashish, and hashish oil.

    Natural endogenous cannabinoids are produced in the bodies of humans and some animals. Their main function is to bind to cannabinoid receptors in the body of the organism they were produced in.

    Synthetic cannabinoids are chemicals that bind to cannabinoid receptors in the human body. They do not occur in nature, and must be synthesized by humans.

    There are some synthetic cannabinoids like jwh-018 that (when ingested by humans) produce effects similar to, although not the same as, natural cannabis products.

    Below is some information about natural herbal cannabinoids found in cannabis products like marijuana, hashish, and hashish oil. Natural endogenous cannabinoids and synthetic cannabinoids are not covered in any depth in this article.

    THC (Tetrahydrocannabinol) gets a user high, a larger proportion of THC will produce a stronger high. Without THC you don't get high.

    THC is responsible for most of the cerebral (mental) effects of cannabis. Besides potentially inducing feelings of euphoria and happiness, THC can cause people to feel anxious, nervous, or paranoid.

    CBD (Cannabidiol) increases some of the effects of THC and decreases other effects of THC. Larger amounts of CBD tend to relax both mind and body, and decrease feelings like anxiety, nervousness, and paranoia.

    Cannabis that has a high level of THC and low level of CBD will produce a very strong cerebral high. The body may feel more physically energetic when compared to ingesting cannabis with larger levels of CBD.

    Cannabis that has a high level of both THC and CBD will produce a fairly strong cerebral high. The body will feel somewhat relaxed and heavy. At lower dose sizes, physical activity is possible (with effort).

    Cannabis that has low levels of THC and high levels of CBD will produce more of a stoned feeling. The mind feels relaxed and dull, the body feels relaxed and heavy, most people do not like to engage in physical activity.

    CBC (Cannabichromene) is not psychoactive in pure form, and is not known to interact with THC to affect the high.

    CBL (Cannabicyclol) is a degradative product like CBN. Light converts CBC to CBL.

    CBN (Cannabinol) is produced as THC ages. High levels of CBN tend to make a person feel messed up rather than high. CBN levels can be kept to a minimum by storing cannabis products in a dark, cool, airtight environment.

    THCV (Tetrahydrocannabivarin) is found primarily in strains of African and Asian cannabis. THCV increases the speed and intensity of THC effects, but also causes the high to end sooner.

    If you are a grower, you can experiment with different strains of marijuana to produce the various qualities you seek. A medical marijuana patient looking for something with sleep inducing properties might want to produce a crop that has high levels of CBD.

    Another person looking for a more energetic high will want to grow a strain that has high levels of THC and low levels of CBD. In general, Cannabis sativa has lower levels of CBD and higher levels of THC. Cannabis indica has larger amounts of CBD and lower amounts of THC than sativa. See marijuana strains.


    For a more scientific description, see below for an excerpt from marijuana growers guide by Mel Frank. The book was published in 1996, updates have been added on this page to bring it up to date and reflect more current findings.

    Cannabis is unique in many ways. Of all plants, it is the only genus known to produce chemical substances known as herbal cannabinoids. These cannabinoids are the psychoactive ingredients of marijuana; they are what get you high, buzzed, or stoned.

    In 1974, there were 37 naturally occurring herbal cannabinoids that had been discovered. By 2010, there had been over 80 naturally occurring herbal cannabinoids identified as being produced by the cannabis plant.

    There are 3 types of cannabinoids:
    --- Herbal: occur naturally only in the cannabis plant
    --- Endogenous: occur naturally in humans and other animals
    --- Synthetic: cannabinoids produced in a lab

    Most of the cannabinoids appear in very small amounts (less than .01 percent of total cannabinoids) and are not considered psychoactive, or else not important to the high. Many are simply homologues or analogues (similar structure or function) to the few major cannabinoids which are listed.

    There are several numbering systems used for cannabinoids. The system used here is based on formal chemical rules for numbering pyran compounds (any of a class of organic compounds of the heterocyclic series in which five carbon atoms and one oxygen atom are present in a ring structure).

    Another common system is used more by Europeans and is based on a monoterpenoid system which is more useful considering the biogenesis of the compound.


    Tetrahydrocannabinol - THC

    Delta 9-trans-tetrahydrocannabinol - delta-9 THC is the main psychotomimetic (mindbending) ingredient of marijuana. Estimates state that 70 to 100 percent of the marijuana high results from the delta-9 THC present. It occurs in almost all cannabis in concentrations that vary from traces to about 95 percent of all the cannabinoids in the sample.

    In very potent strains, carefully prepared marijuana can be 20 percent delta-9 THC by dry weight (seeds and stems removed from flower buds). Buds are the popular name given to masses of female flowers that form distinct clusters.

    Delta 8-trans-tetrahydrocannabinol - delta-8 THC is reported in low concentration, less than one percent of the delta-9 THC present. Its activity is slightly less than that of delta-9 THC. It may be an artefact of the extraction/analysis process. Almost everyone who uses the term THC, refers to delta-9 THC and delta-8 THC combined, as THC.


    Cannabidiol - CBD

    Cannabidiol - CBD also occurs in almost all strains. Concentration range from none, to about 95 percent of the total cannabinoids present.

    THC and CBD are the two most abundant naturally occurring cannabinoids. CBD is not psychotomimetic in the pure form, although it does have sedative, analgesic, and antibiotic properties.

    In order for CBD to affect the high, THC must be present in quantities ordinarily psychoactive. CBD can contribute to the high by interacting with THC to potentiate (enhance) or antagonize (interfere or lessen) certain qualities of the high.

    CBD appears to potentiate the depressant effects of THC and antagonize is excitatory effects. CBD also delays the onset of the high but can make it last considerably longer.

    When only small amounts of THC are present with high proportions of CBD, the high is more of a buzz, the mind feels dull and the body de-energized.


    Cannabichromene - CBC

    Cannabichromene - CBC is another major cannabinoid, although it is found in smaller concentrations than CBD and THC. Relative to THC and CBD, its concentration in the plants is low, probably not exceeding 20 percent of total cannabinoids. CBC is believed not to be psychotomimetic in humans.


    Cannabicyclol - CBL

    Cannabicyclol (CBL) is a degradative product like CBN, light converts CBC to CBL. There are no reports on its activity in humans, and it is found in small amounts, if at all, in fresh plant material.


    Cannabinol - CBN

    Cannabinol - CBN is not produced by the plant per se. It is the degradation (oxidative) product of THC. Fresh samples of marijuana contain very little CBN but curing, poor storage, or processing such as when making hashish, can cause much of the THC to be oxidized to CBN. Pure forms of CBN have at most 10 percent of the psychoactivity of THC.

    Like CBD, it is suspected of potentiating certain aspects of the high, although so far these effects appear to be slight. CBN seems to potentiate THC's disorienting qualities. One may feel more dizzy or drugged or generally messed up but not necessarily higher.

    In fact, with a high proportion of CBN, the high may start well but feels as if it never quite reaches its peak, and when coming down one feels tired or sleepy. High CBN in homegrown grass is not desirable since it represents a loss of 90 percent of the psychoactivity of its precursor THC.


    Tetrahydrocannabivarin - THCV

    Tetrahydrocannabivarin - THCV or THV is the propyl homologue of THC. In the aromatic ring the usual five-carbon pentyl is replaced by a short three-carbon propyl chain. The propyl cannabinoids have so far been found in some strains originating from Southeast and Central Asia and parts of Africa.

    In one study, THCV made up to 48.23 percent (Afghanistan strain) and 53.69 percent (South Africa) of the cannabinoids found. We've seen no reports on its activity in humans. From animal studies it appears to be much faster in onset and quicker to dissipate than THC.

    It may be the constituent of one or two toke grass, but its activity appears to be somewhat less than that of THC. Some people use the term THC to refer collectively to delta-9 THC, delta-8 THC, and THCV.


    Cannabinoids And The High

    The marijuana high is a complex experience. It involves a wide range of psychical, physical, and emotional responses. The high is a subjective experience based in the individual and one's personality, mood, disposition, and experience with the drug.

    Given the person, the intensity of the high depends primarily on the amount of THC present in the marijuana. Delta-9 THC is the main ingredient of marijuana and must be present in sufficient quantities for a good marijuana high.

    People who smoke grass that has very little cannabinoids other than delta-9 THC usually report that the high is very intense. Most people that don't smoke daily will feel something from a joint having delta-9 THC of 3 percent concentration to material.

    Cannabis products having a THC concentration of 5-10 percent would be considered good, 10-15 percent would be considered very good, and over 15 percent would be excellent quality by daily users standards. In general, we use potency to mean the sum effects of the cannabinoids and the overall high induced.

    Marijuana is sometimes rated more potent than the content of delta-9 THC alone would suggest. It also elicits qualitatively different highs. The reasons for this have not been sorted out. Few clinical studies with known combinations of several cannabinoids have been undertaken with human subjects.

    So far, different highs and possibly higher potency seem to be due to the interaction of delta-9 THC and other cannabinoids (THCV,CBD,CBN, and possibly CBC). Except for THCV, in the pure form, these other cannabinoids do not have much psychoactivity.

    Another possibility for higher potency is that homologues of delta-9 THC with longer side chains at C-3 (and higher activity) might be found in certain marijuana strains.

    Compounds with longer side chains have been made in laboratories and their activity is sometimes much higher, with estimates over 500 times that of natural delta-9 THC.

    The possibility that there are non-cannabinoids that are psychoactive or interacting with the cannabinoids has not been investigated in detail. Non-cannabinoids with biological activity have been isolated from the plants, but only in very small quantities.

    None are known to be psychotomimetic. However, they may contribute to the overall experience in non-mental ways, such as the stimulation of the appetite.

    Different blends of cannabinoids account for the different qualities of intoxication produced by different strains of cannabis. The intensity of the high depends primarily on the amount of delta-9 THC present and on the method of ingestion.

    A complex drug such as marijuana affects the mind and body in many ways. Sorting out what accounts for what response can become quite complex.



    Reference: http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/mj028.htm
     
  2. Elluzion

    Elluzion Vapeosaurus Rex

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    wow. good shit man!
     
  3. willieR

    willieR Well-Known Member

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    Very cool post! And thanks for providing the link as well.
     
  4. SoCalShore

    SoCalShore Active Member

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    I've got a bit of an off topic question that someone (i hope) can answer. I have searched for the topic but I'm just not finding what I'm looking for so if you can answer or point me in the right direction that would greatly be appreciated.

    I medicate for inflammation and pain. I have found a strain (cannatonic) that has 17% CBD's and very little THC maybe in the 6% range, i use this for the inflammation. Yesterday, I decided to mix my ground Cannatonic with some Tangerine Dream (hybrid) because I wanted the inflammation effects while I was helping with the pain. I put both in the oven at the same time and it rendered me useless on the couch for the whole day.

    My question is: are the totals of the CBD's and the THC adding together or is the more potent of the two canceling out the weaker of the two? I hope you can understand the question because I'm not sure of the linguistics of my thought behind it. Also, is it ok that I did that? I had a much heavier feeling and the futon in my living room that really never has been comfortable while laying down felt like a cloud.
     
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  5. MonsterWithoutBorders

    MonsterWithoutBorders Recovering Canadian

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    There are too many factors here to draw much of a conclusion. Your own body at the time being perhaps the major one. The interaction between cannabinoids are not really well understood just a little bit of anecdotal which would say that CBD is the more sedative cannabinoid I would try the same again and see if you have the same reaction. You might also trying the same test on someone else.
     
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  6. Purrito Purrpants

    Purrito Purrpants Vapurrist

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    I found this at http://www.alamedamedicalmarijuana.com/the-real-difference-between-thc-cbd-and-cbn/. Here's the breakdown for mixing and matching:

    • High THC and High CBD levels together will give you a very strong mental high while making your body feel relaxed and heavy.
    • High THC and Low CBD levels will give you a strong cerebral high while your body becomes more energetic.
    • Low THC and High CBD levels makes your body very relaxed and dulls your mind. Couch-lock anyone? You shouldn’t feel as “high” when compared to strains with higher THC levels.
     
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  7. JoeKickass

    JoeKickass Well-Known Member

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    2,791
    That sounds to me like they are confusing THC/CBC with indica/sativa. I know heavy insicas with barely any CBD...
     
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  8. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    The previous four posts were off-topic in the Pax thread so I've moved them here.
     
  9. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

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    Intravenous experiment comparing pure THC to THC mixed with CBD. Very enlightening.

     
  10. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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  11. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    Apparently we are limited to five media items per post, who knew...
     
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  12. SoCalShore

    SoCalShore Active Member

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    Thank you all for all of your replies. I understand the difference and the properties of both. My main question now is if my strain was 6% THC and 17% CBD and I mixed it with a 19% THC and .9% CBD would have equal to a 25% THC and 17.9 CBD? Or would the greater of the two be the prominent numbers? I don't know how it works. :shrug:
     
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  13. Vicki

    Vicki The Bionic Woman

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    I'm interested too. :)
     
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  14. rayski

    rayski Well-Known Member

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    294
    12.5 8.5
    It's got to be an average of the two if you use equal amounts of each. That would be like 12.5% THC and 8.5% CBD.
     
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  15. havealight101

    havealight101 Norski

    Messages:
    938
    Close. Divide by 2 and you get your %'s.
    So 12.5% thc, and 8.95% cbd if you added equal amounts of each.
    Edit: Oops, too slow
     
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  16. Porquiplane

    Porquiplane Look Into My Eyes

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    Now... All of this CBD and THC info with respect to Puregold levels. What feeling, supposedly, is that supposed to produce? Levels are 87% Δ9 and other THC isomers, 2% CBG, 3% CBN, 1% CBD (from their site).
    [​IMG]
    "The THC family in the chromatogram contains 84% total THC of various types. This includes ∆6-, ∆8- and ∆9-THC, along with ∆6-, ∆8- and ∆9-THCV. The actual amount of ∆9-THC in this batch is 74%. Current batches reach 78%. The peaks to the left of the ∆9-THC peak are THCV isomers. These isomers of THC vary greatly in their psychoactive effects.Research into the therapeutic benefits of trace cannabinoids like THCV, ∆-8 and ∆-6 THC, CBC and CBG is ongoing. All show physiological activity.

    The CBD section shows the amount of cannabidiol. CBD is a sought-after cannabinoid due to its proven medical benefits. For example, CBD and THC are the active ingredients in Sativex, the multiple sclerosis drug developed by GW Pharma. Even though it is not psychoactive by itself, CBD has a powerful influence on the effects of THC even when the CBD content is 1% or less. CBD is the reason that indica has a different affect than sativa. We also include Cannabichromene (CBC) in the CBD family. CBC has reported therapeutic effects as an anti-inflammatory. Like CBD, it moderates the effects of THC and activates the CB2 receptor. This chromatogram shows about 2% CBD and CBC.

    The CBN family consists of degradation products that result from the oxidation of any of the various THC isomers as well as CBD. The CBN family represents 7% in this sample. CBN is not psychoactive but may have therapeutic properties. In addition to CBN, we also include Cannabigerol (CBG) in this family, which is to the right of the THC peak."


    So what does this breakdown to? Head high? Body? Both super high?
     
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  17. darkrom

    darkrom Great Scott!

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    Ever since I saw this I realized how much CBD means to me personally and my needs. I've been sharing this video forever. Glad to see it come up every now and then!
     
  18. SoCalShore

    SoCalShore Active Member

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    To easily answer your question, the THC gives you the head high and the CBD gives you the body high. In T-dub's video that is easily determined. I'm not so scientific as to where the alpha's are meaning anything at this point but the breakdown of the THC and the CBD's in the Pure Gold is very fascinating. So if we were to use the Pure Gold we would have a very strong head high, possibility of a rapid heart beat, and some not too pleasant thoughts. For me personally, not very productive and would probably make me extremely paranoid. However, with the understanding of the breakdown and the effects of each property, now I can choose my meds a little more wisely. I love this chemistry stuff!

    I like what Darkrom said about the benefits and understanding about the CBD effects on the body. Now I'm thinking back when I first began with medicinal herb with the bad highs and the good highs that I was getting; I had some pretty lousy highs from the herbs I was given. Must have been the elevated levels of the THC and the low levels of the CBD's.

    I am very fortunate that I live in a state that tests this and has broken down the elements so we can make informed decisions. Not knowing and just experimenting is part of the fun recreationally, but for our specific needs as patients I am so glad there is something out there that can help us determine what meds are proper for us to use.

    I'm willing to dive more into this if you are. I will post more statistics once I come across them. I really do find this fascinating.
     
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  19. OO

    OO Technical Skeptical

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    Hmm, this information comes as nothing new. a word of warning about high doses of cbn, and other oxidized products. I have documented effects of smoking aged ABV, the effects are intoxication, poor motor control, and feeling like you're falling off the earth. In other words, not good for operating heavy machinery.

    There still needs to be research into how dosing affects potentiation. I have found that vaping at low temps (<345F) for extended periods of time gives a very cerebral effect, which falls short of the feelings that bring cessation for most individuals, meaning that you can keep going and going, without feeling the urge to stop, and even raising the temp does little to change this effect if done within a time span longer than ~15 minutes, but not so long as to allow the first effect to wear off.

    But, if someone starts vaping anywhere from around 365-375F, then the desire to cessate is achieved nearly instantaneously. I suspect that some higher boiling compounds compete with lower boiling compounds for the same receptors, and that those lower boiling compounds have a higher binding affinity for the receptors. I also suspect that the higher boiling compounds potentiate the effect of the lower boiling compounds, because vaping at high temps a mixture which has already been vaped at low temps also produces a rather mild effect. But vaping the initial mixture at a high temp produces a much more profound effect, which implies some amount of competition/potentiation.

    can anyone else attest to something similar or different?

    This is something I believe deserves further inquiry.
     
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  20. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that you posted up these vids paka. All my local dispensaries shut down due to DEA threats so I had to go to a delivery service. Never used one before, but I found one that uses this lab (SC Laboratories) to test their meds (the same lab that created those vids). Anyway, the strain that I got tested out at 26.6% THC, 2.1%CBD and .2%CBN. 2 hits and I was nailed to the wall.

    [​IMG]
     
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  21. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    I don't have enough information to support your theory, but I concluded a long time ago that whatever is happening is not as simple as the commonly accepted concept that "at temperature x you get y compound with z effects". I would be surprised if something similar to your idea wasn't occurring. I don't believe this subject will be easily understood even when we finally start seeing more research.

    Concerning your last point: you also have to consider that vaporization of a particular compound begins before the boiling point is reached. Vapor produced at, say, 160°C will contain some fraction of the compounds with higher boiling points. If you later vaporize that material at a higher temperature, the effect is milder than it would be with unvapourized weed because a portion has already been driven off. As per your theory, it is even more complicated because you would also be missing the mitigating or aggravating effects of the lower temperature compounds.

    :suspicious: My brain needs to adjust to a world where someone's medicine is called Hydro Brain Damage OG.
     
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  22. lwien

    lwien Well-Known Member

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    LOL !! I know, right? That's exactly what I thought when I first saw the name of this strain. It's kinda antithetical to the concept of medical marijuana, eh?
     
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  23. Jeppy

    Jeppy JedHI Vaporist

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    I used to get some good Cannatonic at a 'former' collective.
     
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  24. OO

    OO Technical Skeptical

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    this is a known in chemistry, referred to as boiling point depression. it explains why hookah "smokers" aren't combusting if they are doing it correctly.

    hookah tobacco uses propylene glycol, or vegetable glycerin to reduce the boiling point of water, so that way, as soon as it vaporizes, it recondenses into water droplets, visible to the naked eye.

    similarly, any impurities lower the boiling point of the compounds you vape.
     
  25. Porquiplane

    Porquiplane Look Into My Eyes

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    There were times with near any product that paranoia was produced. The feeling of shaking that cant be controlled. Like being cold but your not, then panic about breathing patterns or the heart. This seemed to have been produced with any strain (though not all the time). More so with the body effects (strains like . That feeling alone makes one not want to continue using ANY. this was home bho, puregold, any sort of smoked types. Yes, before vaping, in the primitive ages it was smoke. But it seems with controlled moderation and the right atmosphere it would function better. Night-time at the homestead while in bed would equal the shakes with a trapped feeling and discomfort with just being stuck in the house and the dark. Whereas during the day at work, while active, it would be functional and productive with the "headband" high. There was one hit that was taken at a friends house and it was just extreme panic and shock. Couldnt breath correct, super intense, couldnt function in near any manner. Thats what should be avoided. And this was no special product, had toked every day for 3 years and then something like that happens and just smacks you in the mouth.

    It may all be about moderation. Puregold, being that its tested so clean and there is truly NOTHING else like it, is the prime choice. You get the levels, you get the testing, you get the certification of the state, you get alot of info. whereas getting some homebrew wax you have no clue. home bho too, you have no idea and its doubted that many if anyone has ever had those tested. Heaviest strains tended to be indicca based, Cheese and Alaskan ThunderFuck. Those were intense times. Cheese being the heaviest of the two. Ones like AK47 (sativa) would be much more functionable. That definitely correlates with the Low CBD levels result in a bigger head high, but then Cheese and ATF were probably high CBD indicas. That doesnt correlate. That means you should be relaxed. Unless it was high cbd and high thc. which could be. But the ones that over power your body and give you the Lean (couch lock). Thats no good, and more so those seem to produce negative effects. Whereas things like AK47 would be productive and fun and all around enjoyable.

    So wheres the talk in all this?

    EDIT: heres one more piece of cheese, this is from analtyical360 labs on the puregold.


    Potency Profile

    • < 0.01% ∆9-THC-A
    • 48.04% ∆9-THC
    • < 0.01% ∆8-THC
    • < 0.01% CBN
    • 48.04% THC-TOTAL
    • < 0.01% CBD-A
    • < 0.01% CBD
    • < 0.01% CBD-TOTAL
    • 48.04% ACTIVATED-TOTAL

      ∆9THC + ∆8THC + CBN + CBD

      Cannabinoids that have been activated through decarboxylation (curing/storage of flowers, or heating/cooking of edibles, tinctures, & concentrates)

    Thats far off what they say on the tetralabs site. but what do people have to say?
     

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