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Silicone Carbide/Titanium hybrid nails

Discussion in 'Vapor Related Equipment' started by herbivore21, Dec 7, 2014.

  1. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,278
    I read that a few times but I can't quite understand what you are saying caused the breakage?
     
  2. Vapodudule

    Vapodudule Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    planet earth
    I was not saying anything about the cause of the breakage. I have two hints: inner default or user error.

    user error from too much previous torching?
    from thermal shock (was not the case)?
    From mechanic shock (pretty sure the deposit was gentle)?
    From too much screwing from the nut is the best bet? thermal expansion bringing too much stress into halo and breakage. I was very carefull with this issue from the beginning to not overscrewing.

    The form of the break edge is circular so the stress should be.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2017
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  3. damm

    damm Well-Known Member

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    295
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    What base were you running that on? third party coil I don't know if that would happen on. I hope; i'm swapping out the coil for a D-Nail coil once I get everything settled with my RDK-300 and that coil (got my Thermocouples today so I will be glad to swap them)

    Tiz a little tighter than I expect with the Auber Flat coil so I had it work it's way loose the other day and had to gently let it cool and plug it back in as the lug nut got too loose.
     
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  4. Vapodudule

    Vapodudule Well-Known Member

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    So i had return for D-nail CS saying that the halo endured too much torching.
    How can a Nail designed to be torched have too much torching? Nails are not warranty covered anyway.

    I never made heavy thermal schock like throwing it in the cold water while hot etc...

    For you guys like @herbivore21 what is the correct regular cleaning procedure?

    Especially when lots of gunk is left.
     
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  5. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    4,278
    Holy shit, what kind of torch were you using man? Was this a propane torch by chance? I can't imagine SiC breaking from any amount of butane torch heat! Do you live in extremely cold conditions by the way?
     
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  6. Vapodudule

    Vapodudule Well-Known Member

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    No @herbivore21 , regular plumber torch with butane+propane mix, Tempered weather here.

    I disagree with the dnail CS conclusion which logically disagrees with their own terms (SiC halo is meant to be torched). I think the breakage is from overscrewing.
     
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  7. SamuraiSam

    SamuraiSam Extraction Technician

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    911
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    I have never, and likely won't ever torch my SiC dish. No need what so ever for me, personally.

    I use one q-tip per dab, as demonstrated in the video I made. Perhaps once a month or two I'll disassemble the nail and wipe down oily parts while warm, put it back together, turn the temperature up to 900 degrees, and if there are any bits of carbon buildup, take a stainless steel pick and chip them off. I use the same SS tool to clean out the center tube, but there's usually only enough build up there to merit cleaning every 3-4 months.

    There's no need to 'tighten' the retaining lug. Many materials expand when heated as molecular excitement increases- if you 'tightened' the retaining lug to the dish while the coil is cold and the coil expands as it heats up, the tolerance could become too tight. Personally... I do things like adjust my coil, or snug the lug to 'lock' the coil in place/adjust 'tightness' of the dish to coil, when the coil and dish are up to normal operating temperature using basic hand tools. This way everything's expanded to its size at operating temperature and I wouldn't have to worry about having anything too tight.
     
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  8. damm

    damm Well-Known Member

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    295
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    So you used MAP Gas; that is def hotter than propane and butane.
     
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  9. Vapodudule

    Vapodudule Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Thks for regathering infos.

    Well i think i mistakenly believed SiC Halo was a torch nail because of the page of dnail site
    "NOTICE: The SiC HALO™ alone can be used with a torch, however do not torch when using with a sapphire insert."

    I recognize also any torch would outpass the 700 deltaT.

    Learned the hard way. Dnail is a good company and will order another SiC Halo.
     
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  10. damm

    damm Well-Known Member

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    295
    Location:
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    700 isn't that bad; the problem is MAPP is much hotter than that.

    MAPP gas can be used in combination with oxygen for heating, soldering, brazing and even welding due to its high flame temperature of 2925 °C (5300 °F) in oxygen. Although acetylene has a higher flame temperature (3160 °C, 5720 °F), MAPP has the advantage that it requires neither dilution nor special container fillers during transport, allowing a greater volume of fuel gas to be transported at the same given weight, and it is much safer in use.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAPP_gas

    Obviously putting a bottle of Oxygen next to it and a double tank would really blow up your dish.
     
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  11. Rabbi

    Rabbi Active Member

    Messages:
    30
    Location:
    California
    Thank you for your order from D-NAIL® Online Store...
    ^^

    D-Nail SIC Halo is on the way. :D
     
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  12. SamuraiSam

    SamuraiSam Extraction Technician

    Messages:
    911
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    You might be on to something

    @Vapodudule could you post a picture of torch setup you used?? Any butane torch that I've ever used for a rig has an internal chamber that holds JUST butane, or threads onto a JUST propane canister. If a fuel besides those two were used, it might indeed have been 'over torched'.
     
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  13. damm

    damm Well-Known Member

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    295
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Well even if he used MAPP gas on it's own it can get _A LOT_ hotter than a Propane Torch. So even the argument the SiC dishes have been torched and torched to death is valid. But they have not been torched with MAPP

    I only used when I was cutting or sometimes soldering (high temp soldering) so I am speaking from experience. You don't even want MAPP near your SiC
     
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  14. Vapodudule

    Vapodudule Well-Known Member

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    My torch is a regular torch working with C206 small cartridges. I said plumber torch because it is used by the plumbers on soft soldering of tubes!
    like this
    http://www.rothenberger.com/en/products/-/38-roflame-piezo-classic-soft-soldering-unit--22-mm/?t=pg

    these C206 ones are for small camping stove and I have two type of cartridges 100% butane or butane/propane mix made for camping in the mountains in high altitudes.

    No fancy gas MAP or acethylene nor oxygen adding.

    But again even 100%butane torches is way ahead a delta of 700°C, that is why the statement from d-nail from the notice made me think the SiC halo was a torch nail.

    In fact to benefit to everyone i paste here the dnail CS piece of advice.

    "I am unsure where you got the information that our SIC halo is meant to just be torched? The SIC halo is an SIC nail made specifically for our D-nail electronic nail system. Some users liked the material so much that they asked us if it could be torched so we did some tests and it can be but it has to be torched evenly and slowly to achieve this.

    When you use the SIC with a flat coil and bring the temperature up to heat clean, it is a steady, constant heat that starts at the bottom of the dish and is equally distributed. When you torch something, its full blast stress on one area. Once you move to another area of the dish you must make sure you revisit the previously torched side and try to match the temps the best you can.

    Torching it to remove excess carbon is almost one in the same with cleaning it however depending on how often you clean it, it may have little carbon or alot of carbon. The quartz halos need to be cleaned regularly because if there is too much carbon they risk cracking (just some back ground on how carbon can affect the dish with halos)

    If you are torching it to use it as a torch nail, you are at constant full blast usually a little less than a heat clean however, its still 2000F in temp. All three of these things are essentially utilizing the same temp but the longevity on a short heat clean is less than that of a regular heat clean or a heat up cycle but it is still extremely stressful for the nail as it continues to heat up extremely hot then cool down to room temp instead of being run on a heater at a constant temperature, then when the heater is turned off, the nail and heater cool down together slowly and still retain some heat where as with a torch set up it just cools down. I hope I am explaining this in a way that is understood. it can be a bit difficult

    All in all, the SIC halo is not meant to be torched, its mean to be used with a coil but it still can be torched. The SIC for the HIVE base is a torch SIC nail and is made differently (wall thickness and the thermal dynamics of SIC and a slightly different grade ceramic as opposed to SIC and TI."


    So Halo SiC could be torched but not designed and meant to be, torching it is dangerous business as you have to achieve manually with your torch a gentle gradient of temperatures as with an enail.

    The SiC torch Nail is the SiC+HIVE Nail.

    D-nail rocks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
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  15. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,278
    That is weird advice from the CS member man!?

    Here's the same quote you mention above, right from the d-nail page:

    "NOTICE: The SiC HALO™ alone can be used with a torch, however do not torch when using with a sapphire insert." (Source: http://www.d-nail.com/nails/halo/d-nail-sic-halo ).

    They even have charts advising on the best torch warmup and cooldown times for the SiC halo FFS!!!!!

    http://www.d-nail.com/analysis/SiC-torch.jpg

    http://www.d-nail.com/analysis/SiC-torch2.jpg

    I also had it told to me long ago by one of the guys whose name is on the patent for the SiC halo (ie: inventor of the product!) that it is for both torch and heater use. The difference is that the other one is for torch use ONLY - and some people may find a ceramic base more appealing than a titanium base in that scenario.

    I have almost exclusively used my SiC halo with a butane torch (errlybird is the brand) for a very, very long time. Since before SiC halos were available for retail. I was one of the first to have a SiC halo. Unlike all of my other nails, I aggressively torch clean my SiC halo and always have. Hard part of the flame, constantly hitting the same part of the nail. It has never broken, even when I get it glowing. It looks like it did the day it arrived at my home, years ago now.

    That torch that you have may well be too powerful man. I would not personally use that torch with any other nail, because IME with SiC halos, it is a major feat to manage to break a SiC halo with a torch alone! If it breaks SiC, it's very likely to break quartz!
     
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  16. Vapodudule

    Vapodudule Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    @herbivore21 wait, it was you cognitively made me believe it was a torch nail!!!

    Yes weird is the answer, you can torch but in fact no you can't...That is why i asked to CS the difference between torch it to remove excess carbon from use it as a torch-nail from torching to clean it.

    All my scientific background says that repetitive thermal cycles affects a cristallic material (as metals, glass), then you have the gradient of application of heat, heat can change the size of the grains of constant cristallized form of material, between those grains are joints of grains containings other phases of cristals (Fe3C in steel) or impurities that makes the material resistant of another character you want. Heat can migrate impurities or spread it etc..

    So no matter what you do, playing with fire and heat on objects stresses them in microscopic way. And for guys selling such objects it clever not to ensure warranty on parts like nails seeing multiples heat cycles.

    The breakage i made pointed at mechanical stress, the edge of break always follow the stress. when unmounting or overscrewing and using it with encased flat coil (more flat surface to stress) but hey no matter what it broked and i torched it regularly it is true.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
  17. Rabbi

    Rabbi Active Member

    Messages:
    30
    Location:
    California
    I have had the D-Nail: SIC Halo, carb cap, and flat coil for a couple days now. Even in this short time the experience has been nothing short of phenomenal. I only wish I bought this as my first setup, but I got a bit distracted by the pretty colors from another manufacturer.

    As a bit of a noob to this sort of stuff, this is the nail I would want recommended to me. Cleanup has been ridiculously easy, which I really like. Every hit has been consistently good, and I don't feel like I have to develop some kind of technique to actually obtain great performance. The D-Nail SIC Halo has consistently performed great every single time so far. The carb cap, wow... Just a fantastic purchase!

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,278
    This is why I've recommended this as a first nail to everybody for the last few years since I first got a SiC halo (before the name 'halo' even existed - wow does time fly!). I am so glad to see folks everywhere starting to realize the benefits :D
     
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  19. shredder

    shredder Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,026
    Great post!

    I feel the same way, and my sic dnail is my first enail. I was and am still blown away how nice it is, and works.

    Welcome to the club @Rabbi
     
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  20. EVlL 55

    EVlL 55 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    237
    Hello all
    I'm wondering if anyone has ever had an annoying whistle come from they're retaining nuts on the halos....i have...on more than a couple....its nothing but drives me batshit.
    I tried the H.E.retaining nut which fits perfectly,..and no whistle.
    ....also if anyone's interested to know all NewVape threading is the same as the d-nail threading,..theyre hybrid nail has a retaining rod...that runs the length of the head and body spitting any reclaim down past the joint....just like the tail pipe on the liger...but this is a rod with retaining nut attached...i can't stress enough how much better,..imo,..this method of ti w/ the halo is better than the d-nail slims...
    ...the slims are small and compact and that's nice but they get hotter than hell and theres no real mass to absorb the excess heat...and I find the female bases aren't too secure on male joints,..but like I said,..these are only my findings and opinions...im sure they differ among the masses.
     
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  21. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,278
    This is curious, I've got about 6x of the various iterations of the retaining nut (for the old and new style sapphire inserts) and I own 3 different halos (one of each). I've never had a whistling noise come from my halo. I wonder if your own retaining nut may have a shape that just happens to produce this noise due to a slight difference in manufacturing tolerances or similar? This is a legitimate annoyance, and I know that patients with conditions that may make this noise a particular problem (folks on the autism spectrum come to mind especially) often medicate with MMJ concentrates. If you contact d-nail, I'm sure you could organize a replacement nut to be sent.

    I definitely prefer the d-nail slim series base precisely because the path is small and stays hotter - that of course means that your vapor stays vapor for longer and you get less reclaim when running at adequate temps for full vaporization! I really dislike the longer liger intake tube, which gets a rust-like buildup of reclaim incredibly quickly (consistently happens within a day or two of use IME). The Infiniti (which I originally used with my halos, the slim series did not exist when I bought my halos) also suffered from hideous buildup of gunk and rust like residue. Those inner threads on the Infiniti are the worst I've seen on a nail for gunk buildup.

    I clean my rigs once every 1-2 days maximum, so all of the above is minimized anyway. When you dab full melt all the time, you keep that pipe clean to taste your meds! :D
     
  22. damm

    damm Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    295
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Whistle while you work eh? yeah it's all about the size of your air pathway with the halo. Unfortunately higher draw speeds will make it whistle; this is reduced greatly with the carb cap in place.

    It doesn't piss me off as much as the whistling coming off of an EVO; and it reinforces to me to draw slower. As I used to take a lighter and some herb to the same kind of glass as I use... well I know I used to draw a lot faster and having grown up i've learned that draw speed does change how much vapor you get (and how tasty it is)

    It's not rust; I watched a bit of Hash Church the other week and Bubble Man explained it pretty well. Reclaim sitting on Titanium generally will turn red while the reclaim sitting on your quartz will have more of a clear look. It condensates onto the glass so how hot it is; and how well the heat transfers (away) matters. If it is rust; it's really not titanium is it?

    I haven't touched my Banger in a bit; cleaned it up but I need to boil it in 99% iso for a couple days I think to really clean it up before I could sell it. It's just the bucket; it came with stuff on the side walls so it wasn't perfect... it just got worse over time as the reclaim baked on

    It got the Concentrate hot; but not always hot enough to vaporize so it became a splatter house.

    Reclaim on my Banger was a reddish color coming out of the air pathway; and towards the bottom where the quartz touched the titanium it was a bit clearer reclaim.

    Clean and clear reclaim with my D-Nail Halo.
     
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  23. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,278
    Oh man that whistle is a PITA! Too loud and ruins any chances of using the evo discretely in an out of the way place. Every hit whistles out 'Look at me!'. :lol:

    Actually, the temp of the surface will determine the color of the reclaim. Hotter glass will get reclaim just as red as titanium will. I have extensive experience in experimenting with this stuff.

    Also I never said that the rust-like reclaim was actually rust! Obviously it is not. However, that level of overcooked reclaim is IMO irredeemably fubared. It also to me raises the questions of what kinds of decomposition byproducts are forming in these parts of the vapor path where such overcooked material builds up?

    My slim series base never gets noticeable quantities of reclaim inside of it unless I do not clean it for a very long time :2c: my golden rule (which makes for golden oil ;) ) is that I don't keep reclaim off of hot titanium surfaces, I only reclaim from the cooler parts of my dab rig.
     
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  24. shredder

    shredder Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,026
    @EVIL 55, Do you here this whistling while you have the carb cap on?

    I have a large pipe and I can hear it if I hit it hard without the carb cap on. But that rarely happens. Until the carb cap is on, I hit it just enough to not let the vapors escape, then I hit it hard with the carb cap on and then no more whistle.

    I found the 18mm universal base (male) was a bit wobbly at first. But used with a 14/18 adapter it fits more securely.

    And I've only had mine a month or so I haven't cleaned it a lot, but I have not found much to reclaim. I run a qtip through the stem occasionally so the only other area would be the bottom.

    I have a carb adapter, and a resin collector that are starting to show some light amber color tho.
     
  25. zombied

    zombied Active Member

    Messages:
    65
    So with 4/20 around the corner, I'm thinking of doing a little early X-Mas shopping for myself. One thing I keep coming back to is a new nail.

    Right now I have an RDK-200 with a flat toil and universal titanium nail. I've been considering the D-Nail SiC HALO, but today I ran across Thick Ass Glass' SiC dish for WAY less: https://www.thickassglass.com/products/tag-replacement-domeless-silicon-carbide-dish

    Is the D-Nail worth the giant price gap? As it stands right now the D-Nail setup I want is $180 vs TAG at $72.50.
     
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