MaxVapor E-Nail - 2018 Version

ellis d. tripp

Well-Known Member
Being someone who has already been burned by the gals at hex nail, and who has also already pre-ordered a maxvapor enail.....this thread is giving me deja vu. It is the end of the month, which is when they thought they would be shipping but I haven’t yet received any update about my order. I have however gotten email twice now asking me how I like the product? from what I assume is a second party marketer.which I thought was kind of funny. Hopefully we’ll all see a video soon or even better some of us will start to receive them. I’ll keep ya posted.
 

Ramahs

Fucking Combustion (mostly) Since February 2017
Hmmm....I have yet to acquire an enail controller, but am in the market for one. I've been following this thread, considering this instead of the lower-cost RDK-300 that I'd wanted to order.

Glad I didn't settle on this yet, as this current ghosting from the manufacturer is f**ing weird. Plus, the collected info that @Elemen0py posted is of course very worring.
 

Hogni

Honi soit qui mal y pense
@Elemen0py , thanks for your substantiated researches! Aside from the reasons for Maxvapors disappearing, there are some points with a kind of haut gout. Maybe unnecessary worries but as we say in German "Ein verbranntes Kind scheut das Feuer!
HN trauma still is working on....
 

JigMelon

Well-Known Member
Is it really that hard to have a smart connected enail in this day?

Definitely not. The HexNail issue was a business management issue and poor quality control. If every unit had identical hardware, we would've had updates long ago. The software for the HexNail does everything we need just fine when it's working. Not trying to defend HexNail or anything, just saying that the main issue that made them less serviceable is the inconsistent hardware.
 

SilentJ

Well-Known Member
Definitely not. The HexNail issue was a business management issue and poor quality control. If every unit had identical hardware, we would've had updates long ago. The software for the HexNail does everything we need just fine when it's working. Not trying to defend HexNail or anything, just saying that the main issue that made them less serviceable is the inconsistent hardware.
Thanks for the response. It was a bit of a rhetorical question. I’m a tech so I know making something like this isn’t that difficult which makes all these “cutting edge” products end up as vapor ware. I just want an enail that has WiFi and Bluetooth so I can connect to my home automation and have better features than my cheap setup that just sets a temp. At the very least I wanted the auto-shutoff and connected aspect of it. So frustrating...
 

lazylathe

Almost there...
Odd turn of events for sure!!

@maxvapor710 posted the thread and I asked some questions which were answered pretty rapidly.
Then more members join and it seems the more questions asked, the longer the reply time till nothing...

@maxvapor710 last visit to the forum was on 16 August 2018.
That is exactly 2 weeks ago today with absolutely ZERO communication from their side.

@Elemen0py has done some stellar background research that is going to take some explaining from @maxvapor710 to settle the waters around here again...

I also had a look at their website again and @maxvapor710 has still not done the upgrades to the page since the start of this thread! I asked if it came with a nail and was told it does. There is NO mention of a nail included in the description and it has still not been adjusted...

Hopefully @maxvapor710 actually can come through and provide what they say they can!

Better come with an excellent story!!
 

ensabbahnur

Hash Vacuum
Yet again Ill point out this should be surprising to NO ONE. First time I heard of this nail, simple google search reveals something is amiss if this is indeed the 2018 iteration an ongoing, updated product, there are no videos, reviews or really anything on any of the other years units, if this is truly something these cats have been pumping out and improving on......Id think we would see that history, I mean in this day and age its almost impossible keeping new products off the internet, yet this one is barely on it. Everyone jumping all over this and claiming its the new Hex is prolly more on the money then they realize and I REALLY hope people STOP PRE ORDERING VAPORWARE!!! (Vaporware being any product that is just hype/renders/preorders and not an actual physical product yet, not an ironic jab at Max Vape) There is practically ZERO advantage to being an early adopter in this hobby, none.

Im in no way saying the MV2018 is a scam (still no videos or review results from google) but FFS people, wait till things are REAL before buying them, much less potential for frustration and let down.
 

Elemen0py

Well-Known Member
This feels different to the Hex-Nail saga to me.

I never invested money into the Hex-Nail so I can understand why anyone who did is pissed off with the Hex girls but I'm more inclined to cut them some slack. We're not all cut out to be entrepreneurs with that Steve Jobs level ambition and execution.

I think Ava and Liz were a couple of cool, down to Earth chicks with a killer idea for a product and the imagination and desire to turn that dream into something big. I think they also lacked the technical and business know-how to convert that dream into the stable environment required for a tech startup, but then in my experience the type of people that don't have a mind for the business world are some of the most likeable people around. Maybe that's just my bias against this neo-liberal capitalist dystopia that we seem to be creating for ourselves but I digress.

It breaks my heart that they let so many people down by lacking the business savvy to see Hex-Nail through, and I've hated to see some of the vitriol that's been thrown their way since. I know some people got burned but it would be a stretch to suggest that they set out to do that or that they haven't been burned themselves. I have no doubt that their having since separated has a lot to do with the stresses that they faced in trying and failing in their enterprise.

Like I said, this MaxVapor thing seems fishier to me. Hex-Nail made promises and failed those commitments and while it sometimes took them a while to respond to that, up until the end they would usually chime back in with some kind of excuse and as slow as it was, progress seemed to be made in their own way. I mean they weren't exactly running a tight manufacturing process, you dig? *cough*hot glue*cough*

The MaxVapor enail, on the other hand, seems to be putting out direct and conflicting misinformation. Like I shared in my previous post, there's different sites, different price points, different names, different claims for different dates, and zero information about this thing out in the wild except for one post where someone had to cancel their order due to it not being shipped. I'll say it again, this was May of last year when that person was told two weeks for an aluminum chassis and here we are a year and three months later and they're still claiming to be machining the chassis? It ain't exactly CSI to spot there's something undeniably shady going on.

I also get a bad vibe from the sites I've seen. The older ones have that late 90's Geocities amateur jank to them and the new ones have that modern day Squarespace template with stock photography feel. Still, not a single image of the unit that isn't a 3D render shopped into the pic (not to mention the amateur hour photoshop job I posted earlier).

If it weren't for the pics that @maxvapor710 has posted of the internals and the 3D printed prototype I wouldn't hesitate to straight up call this a scam. At this point I think it's either that or they're intentionally being misleading about dates and where they're at in the manufacturing process to drive up pre-sales. The longer it goes, the more I stray from thinking it's the latter. Either way, in the words of the late Desi Arnaz, "Lucy, chu got some esplaining to do."

On a side note, every time this bullshit goes down in this industry I think about the fact that it's an attractive angle for a scammer to play because at the end of the day no matter if you get called out for it, there's going to be a percentage of the people you've scammed who aren't willing to go through official channels to be reimbursed for drug paraphernalia. It always reminds me of this scene from Lock Stock.

EDIT: I can't edit my previous post so I'll drop an update here. @maxvapor710 has updated us with more information and it's looking like we're good. I apologise for any jimmies that were rustled in the course of my rampant skepticism. As far as conspiracy theories go, this one appears to be debunked. Lizard people on the other hand, ooh boy lemme tell you 'bout the lizard people and the illuminati...
 
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Baron23

Well-Known Member
the maxvapor.com site has a Content Not Found message when you try to hit a preorder.

Pre-order hyperlink worked for me??

pissed off with the Hex girls but I'm more inclined to cut them some slack. We're not all cut out to be entrepreneurs with that Steve Jobs level ambition and execution.

Can't say I agree with this....its was not a lack of entrepreneurial talent that caused them to take in tens of thousands of dollars and then abscond. I find their ethics highly questionable and don't feel that they deserve any excuses being made for them.

But, we all have our opinions.
 

Elemen0py

Well-Known Member
Can't say I agree with this....its was not a lack of entrepreneurial talent that caused them to take in tens of thousands of dollars and then abscond. I find their ethics highly questionable and don't feel that they deserve any excuses being made for them.

But, we all have our opinions.
I don't feel that it was ever their intention to scam anyone. I think they always planned to satisfy existing customers with the product as was promised and to make good on new orders. I just think the financials got out of hand and then they lacked the fortitude to be up-front about that, which is the main way in which they fucked up. Sure, things would still have been going downhill, but they reached a point where they didn't satisfy their ethical responsibility to keep people updated honestly and that's all I fault them for.

So yeah, they did fuck up and they deserve to have that on their reputation, but I haven't reached a point where I've lost all empathy for them. Tbh, it wasn't until I saw the splatter-house horror scene that was the Hex-Nail internals that I realised how in over their head they were, but I do know they gave it their best and that not everyone's best is equal.
 

invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
The MaxVapor enail, on the other hand, seems to be putting out direct and conflicting misinformation. Like I shared in my previous post, there's different sites, different price points, different names, different claims for different dates, and zero information about this thing out in the wild except for one post where someone had to cancel their order due to it not being shipped. I'll say it again, this was May of last year when that person was told two weeks for an aluminum chassis and here we are a year and three months later and they're still claiming to be machining the chassis? It ain't exactly CSI to spot there's something undeniably shady going on.

Well it is a different controller. I believe the chassis was re-designed to accommodate the new processor and other featured components. Last time I talked to Max regarding this controller, he had added a new temperature controller chip with "50/60 hz filtering for power line noise and accuracy down to .076c and cold junction compensation based on room temperature."

Here is MV's earlier e-nail controller so you can see that parts have in fact changed. This product has been in development for a long time, this isn't some device trying to mop up flopped Hex sales whatsoever.

CxJX4z_UcAAeblq.jpg


maxvapor-whiteclearback.png


Max Vapor has actually been around for a while, if you search the Hex Nail thread for "Max Vapor" you'll find a post from me where I suggested that Ava and Liz use a small OLED in their upcoming controller; that idea came from the Max Vapor unit above. HN of course opted against any screen in the HN02, and instead went for a design with no hands on tactile control...


I also get a bad vibe from the sites I've seen. The older ones have that late 90's Geocities amateur jank to them and the new ones have that modern day Squarespace template with stock photography feel. Still, not a single image of the unit that isn't a 3D render shopped into the pic (not to mention the amateur hour photoshop job I posted earlier).

LOL definitely don't check out the August Haus website if this is genuine concern of yours!


Tbh, it wasn't until I saw the splatter-house horror scene that was the Hex-Nail internals that I realised how in over their head they were, but I do know they gave it their best and that not everyone's best is equal.

Man I think Max REALLY deserves the benefit of the doubt here. We're talking about someone who actually makes a living designing and building professional, discrete, electrical components; versus a spring fling with a hot glue gun.
 

lazylathe

Almost there...
@invertedisdead

I agree with all posts here and all the musings from different t members.
We all have our own point of views from the going ons with other products that failed to launch completely.

I find it unsettling that @maxvapor710 had such presence and promises and then just nothing for 2 weeks.

No videos, no actual pictures and no updates. He was last logged on on the 16th of August. The video was supposed to drop the next day. That was a week ago.

It's just odd how he has not come to say anything with what is going on in his thread...
 

JigMelon

Well-Known Member
Nobody has the source of the hexnaild software so I can't say anything about that, but I will say that I was more impressed with Liz's configuration of the software environment than Ava's hardware work, and Ava's work (and presumably her inability to choose parts that they could get consistently) undoubtedly got in the way of Liz's ability to squash issues and therefore took away from the necessary time to further develop features. What I will say, though, is that the SD card in my hn-02 clearly shows that Liz is/was inexperienced with production linux environments, and there are many issues with the environment which are separate from the software. I've mentioned this in the hex thread as well as with others in private. It would not at all surprise me if recent findings with the hex is partly responsible for this radio silence. I have no doubts that the people currently investing in development of IC-based controllers (publicly, at least) are scrambling to cover their asses. The issues are far beyond the controller software. For example, with the hex, the entire project is based on a GPL-licensed environment. Because of this, they inherit this licensing for much of the environment and therefore also inherit the responsibilities of using such things in a commercial environment. They have not disclosed anything at all related to licensing, and are undoubtedly sitting on potential legal issues as a result.

Let this be known to any manufacturers basing their product on software licensed for free distribution:

If you do not take the time to create a proprietary environment, you better take the time to read up on licensing. If you don't it will bite you in the ass when/if you make it big. If you want your product and business to survive, make sure you do this right.

I do not expect to see any new products from existing solution providers, such as AH, for this very reason. It would be naive to assume that MaxVapor, AugustHaus, HexNail, and anyone else interested in entering this market are not reading all of these related threads regularly. Everyone in the IC-controller game is likely aware of all of this, and are choosing to stay silent until they are certain they are safe. Whether they (nobody specific, just manufacturers using open-source software commercially) have done so knowingly or not, they are taking advantage of other people's work, our general ignorance to licensing of software, and the fact that we are a small, niche community (for now). Until a manufacturer has publicly disclosed otherwise, I would assume that this is related.

MaxVapor's new unit is supposedly a proprietary hardware implementation utilizing FreeRTOS for the base environment. I do not know what the licensing structure is of FreeRTOS, but it would be foolish to not research such things before basing a product on it. If I were MaxVapor, I, too, would be keeping my mouth shut and I wouldn't be taking any money until they are covered legally. I don't think MaxVapor is trying to screw us, and I completely agree with with @invertedisdead. Rather, I think they are ensuring that they don't screw themselves.

I'm no licensing expert either, so if anyone else wants to chime in on this, please do.

Edit: I'm not going to edit anything above since I think it's of interest to others who may be reading. @maxvapor710 has made it clear below that they have taken the necessary steps to ensure they are operating in a legal manner, and I really appreciate that they have disclosed this. The licensing that they are using undoubtedly makes this project more feasible for commercial success.
 
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maxvapor710

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
Looks like quite a bit of controversy has happened while I was away. I will do my best to read through the threads and reply to any questions or concerns posted.

I will state that If there is anyone that has an existing pre-order and wants a refund issued you can simply e-mail our support and you will be taken care of promptly, I don't wan't to be unfairly compared to other companies who have stolen your money and not delivered a product.

We are not, and have never been a difficult company to reach. Thank you for someone sending me a message on Reddit letting us know this thread needed our attention.
 

lazylathe

Almost there...
Has anyone bothered to reach out to them directly yet? I just sent them an email but they also have a phone number on their site if anybody wants to try to reach out that way.

Since @maxvapor710 started the thread, they should be receiving email alerts everytime someone posts in their thread...
Of not, they need to set it up and get organized.

I know that I cannot use this excuse if I start a thread and do not reply.
Saying they needed to be alerted to activity through Reddit is a bit of a stretch imo...
 

JigMelon

Well-Known Member
The fact that they didn't respond until I posted that speaks volumes.

Edit: Just want to clarify that I'm not accusing them of anything here; just thought the timing was odd. I'm sure they'll respond with reasonable answers soon.

Edit2: @maxvapor710 has clarified that my post is unrelated, which is great :D
 
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maxvapor710

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
I can assure you the timing of my reply in relation to your post was in relation to someone on Reddit asking me to take care of the thread over here is all, I will be replying to every question and concern I see posted in this thread shortly.

Regarding your issue of licensing @JigMelon

FreeRTOS is under the MIT license and any piece of code we use in our firmware is either written in-house and licensed internally or falls under the MIT license which is permitted to be used in a commercial product as a long as a copy of the license is attached.

We absolutely do *not* use any GPL licensed or otherwise encumbered code in our firmware.
 

maxvapor710

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
@Elemen0py I understand if you are skeptical based on the results you came up with during your search.

Regarding the website confusion:
VaporEnail and NaturesDab are sites run by one of our earliest investors and without their
initial help the MaxVapor company probably wouldn't be around 4 years later still making devices.
We have a whitelabel and wholesale agreement with them for our product,
but as part of the agreement I have little control over the way they market.
At this point it is probably not in our best interest to continue to offer whitelabel products, but a deal is a deal.
I have reached out to them and asked them to make the appropriate updates and fix any broken links, etc.

Regarding the user who purchased our old unit and was refunded:
Prior to last years unit (2017 model), our device was mostly sold in local markets which allowed us to keep up with the demand quite easily.
When we first began selling the unit online we quickly ran into supply chain issues after our first manufacturing run and decided to cancel all marketing on the device.
You could certainly still buy one through our website, but we didn't go out of our way to try to sell you one.
I am sure quite a few of you have purchased Atomizers, Cartridges, Vape Mods or other things over the past two years and the e-nail has been there on the front page for purchase the whole time.
Why there hasn't been anyone talking about it, I can't answer that question.

Regarding actual photos of units:
Here are some photos from each of our previous revisions that I could find.

Our 2014 Shoebox Jank Unit: https://ibb.co/hbOsk9

Our 2015 Whitelabel Unit at the PaperPlanes booth 2015 San Bernadino Cup: https://ibb.co/c9vYsp

Our 2016 Injection Molded / Hydrographic Series: https://www.instagram.com/p/BSFN2-cAR6t/?taken-by=vaporenail
This model was quickly discontinued due to my unhappiness with Injection Molding and looking cheap.

Our 2017 model is an identical enclosure to our current 2018 model but uses a different board and microcontroller you can see here:
https://ibb.co/fCuMdU
 
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