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Induction Vaporizer (based on "Curie" alloys)

Discussion in 'ABV' started by Egzoset, Nov 13, 2011.

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  1. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke/Blender Vaporist (v3.1)

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    Salutations MagicFlight,

    Please accept my appologies for being a bit late about this...

    [​IMG]

    As a simple customer i only tested some piece of scrap metal with this induction cooker:

    [​IMG]
    YouTube: Salton ID-1081 (induction cooker) test

    That was the end of my short-lived induction vaporizer query as i had no proper alloy handy.

    [​IMG]

    Did you try induction with one of these below?

    [​IMG]
    NeoMax Materials Co. - Temperature-sensitive Magnetic Alloys

    I mean, you selected an alloy with an appropriate Curie point for a vaporizer application, right?

    [​IMG]

    Anything you can share in public or even privately would be greatly appreciated!

    :peace:
     
  2. wak

    wak Well-Known Member

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    Induction Vaporizer ? (merged)

    I had a induction hob fitted in my kitchen recently and thought it would be a great system to build a vaporizer with because it heats extremely fast and the surface that's actually doing the heating never really gets to burning temperatures, although when the bloke tried to tell me how it actually works but i kinda switched off after he started talking about constantly switching magnetic fields or something. So i did a google search to se if there was a induction vaporizer unit on the market and found nothing, why is this? is it impossible? are lasers definitely the way forward or could this have a shout with the right company taking up the challenge?
     
  3. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke/Blender Vaporist (v3.1)

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  4. biojuggernaut

    biojuggernaut Snob

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    anyone have a ti skillet? hahaa one time I put thojune and salvia on my flattop stove and put a glass glass over top and vaporized it that way. Probably not healthy at all. hahaha.
     
  5. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke/Blender Vaporist (v3.1)

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    Hello BioJuggernaut,

    Relatively to temperature the alloys characterized with a Curie point are self-regulating, the others are not.

    I can't find the Curie point of "Pure Titanium", can you help me with this easy riddle?...

    ;)

    Personnally i'd simply fail to see the incentive to go with induction technology if it's just to ignore its most unique asset of all!!! Euh... Which consists in having NO need a closed-loop temperature regulator since it's built into the molecular structure of the alloy itself! Any idea what i mean??? Now, while you're around, here's another question...

    How much do you bet it would cost to manufacture a heat exchanger based on such a concept really?

    I'm really sorry if titanium doesn't fit on one of the curves shown above! It sure would have been nice but that's not what would render induction vaporizers "Hot!" "Hot!" "Hot!", so to speak.

    :peace:
     
  6. biojuggernaut

    biojuggernaut Snob

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    thats what I am saying. It would not be good with flowers or buds unless you were pursuing hot knife type hits. But with a full melt concentrate on top of a ti pad that was heated up with one of these could provide with precise temperatures. Unfortunately a lot of dabbers think they are vaporizing, but these would be the epitome of full melt vaporizing.


    Now in retrospect the induction cooker would probably have to hit 800F to fully heat one's Ti PAD and then dab your melt onto the pad. I would rather use the butane torch however.
     
  7. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke/Blender Vaporist (v3.1)

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    Most unfortunately, i don't know what you're talking about as it doesn't make sense to me at the moment...

    Perhaps the guy who started this sibling thread will know better:

    http://www.fuckcombustion.com/viewtopic.php?id=6717

    As far as i'm concerned induction vaporizers not relying on the Curie point are a dead end and i believe that's why MagicFlight burried the hole thing. Trying to make it portable seems equally wrong to me.

    In addition, no titanium pad would look like a suitable heat exchanger to me anyway!

    :peace:
     
  8. biojuggernaut

    biojuggernaut Snob

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    Awh you are right. I didn't fully understand the whole concept, in your test what would the cap have done if the solder changed magnetic charges? How do you know if that particular solder produces the certain curie temp? I am sorry this concept is completely new to me. From your video I thought you were talking about the top not something that would be influenced by magnetic metals :lol: But im stumped this concept is pretty mind boggling :hmm:
     
  9. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke/Blender Vaporist (v3.1)

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    Quite honestly it seems you keep ignoring the topic of my title, i begin to wonder if it's only some misunderstanding or else... Please try to understand the subject, in any case we can discuss YOUR own topic in a proper thread with a suitable title if you wish, just as i've suggested previously:

    Induction Vaporizer ?

    This is a thread where Ti Pad discussions would fit nicely, IMHO.

    In the meantime, i notice there was no answer to this very basic question: what's the Curie point in pure titanium pads?... If you can manage to find such information at all, that is...

    Well, i don't expect this material to be compatible with an Induction Vaporizer application of which the design depends on the "Curie" point, pure and simple.

    I'm not being rude here, but i feel i must remind you once again that this thread is titled:

    Induction Vaporizer (based on "Curie" alloys)

    :peace:
     
    Pipes likes this.
  10. Frederick McGuire

    Frederick McGuire Aggressively Loungey

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    I have no idea about induction heating, or curie points, but can I see if I can summarise the idea?

    1 - Get some kind of induction heater base.
    2 - Find a metal with a curie point that would make it heat to (for example) 190C
    3 - Shape the two into something that lets us vape with it.

    Am I missing something that would make it not feasible/possible?
    (short of there not being a metal with the correct curie point?)

    Care to give a bit more info for the noobs (me :lol: )?
     
  11. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke/Blender Vaporist (v3.1)

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    Salutations Frederick,

    Construction would be quite simple as you figured out, except for a slight detail at item #3 actually: the induction cooker shown in my YouTube video was available for a hundred dollars at Sears, hence there was no need to custom-build (or "shape") it... Since there already are induction cookers on the market the only element to require shaping would be the heat exchanger istelf.

    So, to summarize, implementation might possibly take place in this manner:

    1) Have an induction cooker handy
    2) Select a metal sheet with its Curie point set between 160 C and 204 C
    3) Cut a plain disc the size of a CD-ROM into that sheet (~4")
    4) Turn the metal disc into a heat exchanger by stacking a ceramic maze on top of it:

    [​IMG]

    This layer structure should fit inside a full-size CD-ROM case easily, providing its "stealth" feature.

    It would make sense to use a ceramic maze with multiple trenches in order to maximize airflow, metal pins emerging from the metal disc could help to thermalize the air entering the sides. A 3rd layer covering the ceramic maze would seal the air circuits and collect hot air at the center point where an opening would match a suitably designed vaporizing bowl. Put briefly, a vaporist would place his CD-ROM case-like heat exchanger on the induction cooker with its complementary vaporizing bowl sitting over the central hole. A flexible silicone tube would collect the cannabis vapor on the other side of that bowl or perhaps it should be feasible/desirable to add a water toy on top of the rest...

    Now, the beauty of this concept would reside in the absence of a Closed-Loop Control System: automatic heat regulation would result from the metal becoming magnetically transparent once it reaches its Curie point, which in turn would cause it to stop absorbing electromagnetic energy... Once the disc would start cooling below its Curie point it would start heating up again and so on, effectively working like a servomechanism. The difference from conventional vaporizers consists in the fact that the alloy would always behave the same way, this implies that the heat exchanger would be rendered 100 % reliable as there would be no parts exposed to potential failure - unless one destroys the induction cooker and/or the ceramic maze (the later could as well be made of silicone instead, by the way)!

    ...

    Considering that you appeared to be unfamiliar with basic automation concepts here's an illustration representing a steam regulator:

    [​IMG]

    The principles behind it are easy to grasp. They had no electricity 300 hundred years ago, a boiler was used instead that generated pressurized steam to actuate a steam engine which in turn made the spheres spin. The faster their speed the higher they went. Then at the chosen height the spheres pulled on a valve which interrupted the flow of steam, reducing speed as a consequence. With the valve re-opening again the flow of steam would be re-established, etc. Closing the cycle, hence the "closed-loop" term.

    Anyway, that's roughly how a regulating system operates. Without an alloy with a suitable Curie point there's no such automated regulation, meaning a special magnetic inducer would need to be conceived - which would raise the level of complexity and co$t because of the electronics required... Translating into lesser durability/reliability, etc., etc., etc.

    Do these brief explanations help you to gather why the Curie point is a crutial element in my thread exactly?

    :peace:
     
  12. magicflight

    magicflight Manufacturer Manufacturer

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    Location:
    USA
    Hi,

    The concept is an interesting one. One practical detail you might want to keep in mind is that most (probably all) of these induction heaters have an automatic shutoff in the event that there is no pot on the surface. They sense the existence of the pot by detecting increases in the magnetic permeability of the local field near the resonance coil. Without sufficient local permeability, tank circuit resonance is not obtained, and the unit does not operate. Therefore, your custom metal plate would need to have sufficient permeability and energy adsorption characteristics at all operating temperature ranges despite its curie point transition. Unfortunately, this largely defeats the point of using the curie point as a regulating mechanism. As soon as the set-point temperature is reached, the delivery coil shuts off and regulation is lost.

    Note that attempting to bypass the feedback ring in the induction unit itself, or to build a custom inductor, does not help. This is because that the resonance conditions required in the tank circuit assume a certain local field permeability to be present at start-up. While some variations of the energy adsorption characteristics in the magnetically coupled system are possible, the range required by curie point regulation tends to be too large. The Q coefficient of the resonator tends to be too low in such systems to be practical (very not energy efficient).

    In short, it can be done, but it usually requires a custom induction system (with active loop feedback). We gave up on the concept not because it was not possible, but because it was not energy (and cost!) efficient enough to make it worth it. Because such systems tend to be very complex to build and are somewhat "fussy", they are usually only applied in special circumstances.

    -- Magic-Flight
     
  13. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke/Blender Vaporist (v3.1)

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    Salutations MagicFlight,

    Thank you for this 1st-hand testimony, also the very 1st i ever had a chance to read about on this board - or anywhere else for that matter!

    :D

    I was hoping that the induction cooker would be slow to detect an "insufficient load" condition, allowing the vaporist to get his "hit" before the device's timeout delay is over. On my YouTube video we can see that the melting temperature of Sn/Pb solder (183 C - 188 C) was reached in 7 seconds or so, e.g. before the appliance turned itself off. Now that i think of it, the machine did power down indeed but not before my small metal disc became red-hot.

    ...

    In any case, it seems you've experimented with alloys characterized by the Curie effect. Under these circumstances i find myself satisfied to know that induction was given a try, at the very least...

    That's good enough for me, thanks again.

    :peace:
     
  14. wak

    wak Well-Known Member

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    yeah sorry man, i had the great idea and posted it assuming i it was relatively unique .
     
  15. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke/Blender Vaporist (v3.1)

    Messages:
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    Hi BioJuggernaut,

    Most regrettably, i didn't have access to alloy sheets with a proper Curie point (and i still don't)... On top of that, my video's quality was so poor we can barely notice the elongated solder coil which was standing in the middle on my "ferromagnetic" disc - not to mention that this disc was so small in diameter i couldn't flip it on its other face: raising the main metallic surface by a millimeter or two (because of the rim) sufficed to disrupt my experiment completely as i recall!

    Briefly put, that particular disc had the absolute minimal diameter to begin with.

    :science:

    Now, on the matter of a Curie point in Sn/Pb solder, lets mention that Sn/Pb solder simply doesn't stick to magnets - which was the main reason why i selected this material for my test in the 1st place! Consequently, i was quite confident at the time that the influence of such a tiny piece of solder really shouldn't be a concern at all, especially with a disc acting like a magnetic shield in between! It may look like heat was generated inside the Sn/Pb material itself but i thought otherwise, naturally...

    ...

    So, what was the experiment exactly and what was it meant to verify?

    Well... Lets begin by pointing out that i'd have prefered to use 37/63 "eutectic" Sn/Pb solder because it turns liquid more abruptly (this in turn would have rendered my demonstration slightly more obvious); yet my final conclusion wouldn't have changed significantly by the way... Ordinary 40/60 Sn/Pb solder was good enough since it softens in the same temperature range as that where cannabis vaporisation occurs. This seemed appropriate so i just shaped my solder piece in a way to cause gravity to force it to collapse as soon as it reached its pasty phase (~185C, e.g. bewteen the solid and liquid states). The thing is i didn't know it would melt so fast back then, i must confess!...

    :brow:

    Finally, at least three lessons were learned on that day:

    1) Even a small disc only 4 inches in diameter might work well
    2) It could be made sufficiently hot for vaporizer applications
    3) The machine was able to support a minimum of 1 inhalation

    In conclusion, the Curie point would still be a major asset for this type of experiment. It's true commercially available induction cookers stop generating electromagnetic energy after a "no load" delay but using a proper alloy would still garantee (100 %!) that the metal's temperature never raises beyond the Curie point ever!... Which should translate as "SAFE" for vaporizer applications i believe.

    :peace:
     
  16. ktx49

    ktx49 New Member

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    lols @ this thread
     
  17. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke/Blender Vaporist (v3.1)

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