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Help for mom of autistic child--phone call?

Discussion in 'Medical Discussion' started by MinnBobber, Feb 27, 2018.

  1. chris 71

    chris 71 Well-Known Member

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    definitive research ? can you show us were it is ? im pretty sure its just the best guess of people studying looking for harms . basically the only kind of research that was done in the past .

    they noticed that a large proportion of people suffering from schizophrenia also used cannabis . and correlated that it must cause or trigger . instead of possibly these people were self medicating .

    a lot of people with mental health problems self medicate . if you think about it what are the two most readily available drugs in most societies . i would say alcohol and cannabis , so of coarse cannabis would be used a lot more in this population .

    i once read a study that looked a spinal fluid of schizophrenia patients and it showed they were lacking anandamide or something that processes it or something cant remember exatly . but THC mimics anandamide . so they very well may use because it helps or helps with symptoms .

    the notions that it triggers or exasperates may one day be foud to be like so many other cannabis myths

    lol my thought also C No Ego i was typing at the same time you posted
     
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  2. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    I guess with incorrect compound absorption it could increase psychotic tendencies like with marinol but never cause it like from genetics and such...

    I mean you would literally see psychotic people leaving the cannabis stores and talking to trees and rocks
     
  3. chris 71

    chris 71 Well-Known Member

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    its pretty well known also that the rate of schizophrenia has been a pretty constant 1 % for like the last long time . if this was true that cannabis triggered it then the percentage of people getting it would have increased dramatically in the last 50 years especially the last 25 or soo
     
  4. Kosherbubba

    Kosherbubba Active Member

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    No not THC, THC will enchance the psychotic experience amongs people with pychosis or who have tendancies to develpo pychosis. Its quite alarming and THC has been proven to bring out pychotic tendancies. However, CBD reacts the opposite way. Which is why people who use THC only find that THC breaks with CBD helps their anxiety symptoms. I would not give cannabis high THC strains to any young person who may have a tendancy towards pychosis or those that have pychosis. You are much safer with CBD strains and recent research has proven that CBD is helping the symptome of Schizophrenia and psyhosis. CBD is more of an anti-psychotic, THC enhances Psychosis. But in people without this issue it would not matter

    https://www.projectcbd.org/schizophrenia

    Click to play YouTube Video
     
  5. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    quote from one of the articles in your link
    " So what does the science actually tell us? First, the hypothesis that cannabis can cause schizophrenia de novo is essentially without evidence. Although it is true that administration of very high doses of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the psychoactive constituent of cannabis, to healthy individuals can produce psychotic-like symptoms transiently,6 these symptoms subside very quickly and are not representative of a bona fide psychiatric condition. More so, within the Western world, cannabis use went from essentially nonexistent before the 1950s to extremely prevalent in the 1960s and 1970s. Despite this dramatic shift in cannabis use at a societal level, the prevalence of schizophrenia has largely remained stable.7 "



    and your conclusion that cbd is best is your opinion.... each individual is different and their ECS is somewhat different... still, THC access parts of our anatomy that cbd does not and that is why someone may seek out THC for psychiatric disorders as it goes directly to the effected area ( brain) and adds metabolism there... managing that metabolism is up to each person etc.... so as to not go to far with over metabolism ( confusion) from to much thc
     
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  6. Kosherbubba

    Kosherbubba Active Member

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    Location:
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    So are we saying there is no research out there indicating that THC aggrevates symptoms of pychosis in people that are diagnosed with pychosis or Schizophrenia. Because from what I read out there THC strains are like peneaut butter to a person with a peneaut allergy( aka pychosis), it just not good for them to take it. However, people with mental health conditions who microdose o.1 to 0.5 grams per day of high THC strains is fine. Once you get to 1.0 to 1.5 Grams or above per day than the THC will cause worsening anxiety and depression. Every srtain is different for each person.
     
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  7. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    exactly- we can say thc does this or that but it is also dependent on the person / how much they need etc.... and it certainly does not effect everyone the same
     
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  8. His_Highness

    His_Highness In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king

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    I'd also be concerned with mixing cannabis with mood altering prescription meds that the patient may already be taking as that can cause an instantaneous bad reaction.

    - Some folks who fight chronic migraines are prescribed meds that initially were developed for psychological issues but were later found to benefit migraine sufferers.
    - People experiencing anxiety are prescribed meds to relieve that anxiety. Feels like this is more common these days.
    - Are autistic patients prescribed mood altering meds as a standard of care?

    If the patient in question is taking these kinds of meds adding cannabis to the mix without oversight by a physician could be dangerous even though the affect is temporary. Good luck finding a physician who has any insight in this area. The majority of the physicians I've talked to are versed in cannabis being able to help with physical issues such as pain, nausea and lack of appetite. Not one physician I've talked to ever mentioned the contra-indication of mixing cannabis with those kinds of prescription meds...even when they were the ones who prescribed the med and were told cannabis was of interest.

    I did notice an increased sensitivity to paranoia along with an unwelcome personality change in someone who was already taking mood altering prescription meds along with cannabis.

    To a certain extent it feels like a gamble to me when the variables are many and there is a lack of practical, scientific, documented knowledge available. Seems to me the risk/reward becomes the key here. If I had a child who was hurting himself or was having dangerous seizures I wouldn't hesitate to try anything even if I had to hide it from the treating physician. If I had a autistic child who was making progress, mainstreaming or close to it.....I'd probably not bring cannabis into the mix unless I could convince the physician because otherwise I'd have to hide it from the physician. Hiding it would not allow for proper tracking of the treatment already in place.
     
  9. Kosherbubba

    Kosherbubba Active Member

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    131
    Location:
    Toronto, ON
    True, agreed. It really depends on the dose, the strain, the person.
     
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  10. MyCollife

    MyCollife Well-Known Member

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    People who experience paranoia often give off a "vibe" of being hesitant or suspicious. Others pick up on this and begin to act differently around the person which only increases their paranoia. I could see cannabis exacerbating this.

    Take a person who thinks co-workers are talking about him and have negative views about his performance. If cannabis makes him anxious and he's going into work after a session the night before.... it could turn into a bad situation.

    If someone isn't paranoid but has trouble reading people / body language and is anxious because of it the situation could be bad as well.
     
  11. Boden

    Boden Aspie polymath

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    In the shop
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  12. MinnBobber

    MinnBobber Well-Known Member

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    Autism spectrum disorder has three main facets/issues:

    -- communication difficulties

    -- social interaction problems

    -- repetitive behaviors/ self-injuring behaviors

    In reviewing current pharmaceutical treatment options, there are only two FDA-approved drugs being prescribed and none treat the three core issues. These drugs, Risperdal and Abilify are used to treat irritability associated with autism spectrum disorder and have significant side effects.

    The other medications being prescribed are experimental or off-label. Thus, patients with autism receive medications prescribed for ADHD, depression, sleep disorders, SSRIs, stimulant medications like Adderall and Ritalin, and Naltrexone ( FDA approved for alcohol and opioid addictions). “Off label use” is drugs approved for other conditions but being tried for autism.It’s important to note that there have been no significant clinical trials to demonstrate risk or efficacy of these drugs in children with autism So these kids receive a pharmaceutical buffet of some very dangerous drugs, none of which are even for the three facets of autism.

    That's what is being dumped into these kids. Cannabis should be the first medicine tried, not the last resort of desperate parents.
    Cannabis supplements their Endocannabinoid System, which then works to restore balance. If you get a chance, talk to a family where an autistic child went from big pharma autism meds to cannabis and the most common word used is, it's a miracle :)
     
  13. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    so glad to see people waking up and accepting plant metabolites as medicine . omega threes become endocannabinids so even focusing on consuming those EFAs regularly can help someone with autism
     
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  14. OldNewbie

    OldNewbie Well-Known Member

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    I have learned enough about autism to get to the point of knowing I know nothing. Even small portions that start to make sense, when I look at it just a bit closer, falls from my grasp. It is a profoundly subtle set of things that changes everything and nothing. Just saying.

    There are no chemical treatments that are approved. There are mitigations, there are things that address specific symptoms and there are chemical helpers to get some through the day; but, there are no pills that solves the problem.

    The only thing that has support is therapy. ABA therapy is well-supported in the literature. More specific therapies like speech and occupational are a part of the treatment when needed too. Before there are large claims about how cannabis helps, we better make sure it does not prevent success through the only treatment shown to work. There are no studies about a comparison between ABA success rates for cannabis consuming and non-consuming participants I know of and, until there are, it seems better to slow roll advice to start disabled children on pot.
     
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  15. MinnBobber

    MinnBobber Well-Known Member

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    .................................................................................
    ABA teaches/reinforces some skills but does not get the kind of massive/miraculous results that cannabis has shown to produce. While testifying at state health dept mtgs on medical cannabis, I have personally talked to dozens of families that have tried every autism therapy (like ABA) and every drug that is out there with no meaningful improvement. The child might now be able to brush their teeth after years of ABA therapy BUT they still punch themselves in the head repeatedly, resulting in dozens of emergency room visits. With the current grab bag of drugs being prescribed (none dealing with the core autism issues) they report no improvement and they produce "behavior" like the child with these drugs now sits frozen in a chair all, drooling on themselves :(

    With cannabis therapy, hundreds report a dramatic change for the better, saying it is like a new child---
    Great initial results on autism therapy from Israel.
    Search for some videos of the before and after-----fricking amazing.
    Look up MAMMA Mothers Advocating Medical Marijauna for Autism----bless this group as they know it works and they are trying to educate the ignorant and uncaring and misinformed.

    The research is all (99.9%) pointing to cannabis therapy working, and worst case--no meaningful side effects.
    One study out of Calif points to why cannabis works for autism, and no surprise to those that know about the Endocannabinoid System (ECS).
    --- A mutant NL 3 or NL 5 gene has been linked to autism and what else does this mutant gene do???? It reduces the production of endocannabinoids in the body, leading to an ECS Deficiency. Add some external cannabinoids (phytocannabinoids) and the ECS is then in a position to bring back/move toward balance of all body systems.

    The ECS is key to it all. I 'd be more concerned that ABA Therapy doesn't mess up medical cannabis treatment :)
    With what is known this moment, and what knowledge is being introduced, it is pretty obvious that cannabis should be the first route to try.

    P.S. Autism and epilepsy are very much linked/ brain neuro transmitter issues and about 1/3 of impacted kids have both. That's how a HUGE population of autistic kids got cannabis in the first place, for their Epilepsy where we know (or you better know if your eyes are open) that cannabis is a miracle for epilepsy. And what happened---not only was the epilepsy "cured", but the autism spectrum disorders issues were also dramatically improved.

    The evidence is so overwhelming ,from all my research and anecdotal reports, that it is a medical tragedy it isn't used more for autism :( Those kids and adults and families with autistic kids need help and they need it now !!!
     
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  16. OldNewbie

    OldNewbie Well-Known Member

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    The evidence is NOT overwhelming for cannabis treatment of autism in children. It IS overwhelming for ABA therapy.

    May cannabis be someday accepted as a treatment modality? Maybe. There is certainly enough anecdotal evidence out there to indicate it might be useful and some useful possibilities on the mechanism on how it might help.

    I was going to go further, but don't want to derail this useful conversation. However, to the proposition cannabis is known to be better than ABA therapy, I dissent.
     
  17. DDave

    DDave Vape Wizard Accessory Maker

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    Location:
    Judge the Vaper by the Vapor
    From my own perspective:

    • Communication Difficulties: To this day, I have difficulties with verbal queues and subtle body language. I pause sometimes during sentences, as I try to tame the barrage possible outcomes to a conversation at hand that are racing through my mind. Controlled (read medical dose, not stoned) Cannabis use seems to significantly lessen this predictive nature of my though process and I can keep more with the flow of a conversation.
    • Social Interaction: Another over-analyzing over-predicting activity. Am I standing correctly? Clothes in order? Watch others, what is their attention focused on? Picking up trigger words of interest in other's conversations around me, but not entire conversations, causing me to lose focus on my immediate social sub-circle. Wait! Someone mentioned a problem. I fix problems. Suddenly I'm alone in my mind working out this issue and I've lost track of the entire gathering? Again controlled cannabis use allows me to shrug off minor concerns, disregard some of these trigger words, and stay in tune with my immediate surroundings. (The fixing problems thing, there's nothing powerful enough to quell that and leave me conscious... It's in my nature).
    • Repetitive Behaviors / Self-Injuring: Can stem from frustrations relating to the first two items. Not solely, but they are great contributors. When we repetitively move, we are internally quelling some of the same things that Cannabis allows us to quell, but in a different manner. (Example and one which drives my family batty. When I am concentrating on something, I listen to the same song repeatedly... sometimes for hours on end. It helps me concentrate, blocks out distractions, and satisfies some need I have for repetition. Not by repeating the song, by tones repeated within the song. Examples of these types of songs (I'm currently in an Electronic Techno Phase): Eisenfunk: Pong or Modulate: Dirty Fckn Disco). Can I function without this music? Not sure, as if I'm not playing it through some electronic device, it does play in my head... Can I function better with it? Yes, without question.

    Since Autism (for me Aspergers) is a spectrum broad range condition, this may or may not apply to the individual in question.... but there's a good chance it may.

    @MinnBobber Still need a phone call? PM me.
     
  18. MinnBobber

    MinnBobber Well-Known Member

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    ...................................................................
    That's cool. My experience with these families is that ABA therapy has yielded baby steps which are important if that's all there is.
    The cannabis therapy has yielded life changing, monumental, miraculous , it's like a different child, they no longer bash themselves into hospital treatment, they smiled at their dad for the first time ever, they now go to regular school, our family is no longer 100% consumed with the disorder, we can actually do some normal family activities now, etc etc reports.
    Overwhelming mountain of real life reports from those that have tried everything else for years and years and years , with little success.

    Our State Health Dept did a review of the some behavioral therapies, in preparation for our request to add autism spectrum disorder as an approved condition for med cannabis: Their researchers concluded:

    "ABA-based therapies have demonstrated positive effects on language, adaptive, cognitive, and educational outcomes (Hanley 2001, Lovaas 1987, Warren 2011). However, there is a lack of high-quality randomized controlled trials (Warren 2011). The studies that do evaluate behavioral and developmental interventions are methodologically weak, include few participants, and do not evaluate long-term effects of interventions (Ospina 2008). Therefore, I S S U E B R I E F - A U T I S M S P E C T R U M D I S O R D E R 4 the evidence to determine which behavioral interventions are most effective in children with ASD is inadequate (Warren et al., 2011). Studies on SST interventions are similarly low-quality, though evidence from several small, initial studies indicate that SST is potentially beneficial to children with ASD (White 2007)"

    So, ABA is really in the same boat as cannabis, no quality randomized control studies with enough participants.
    ABA is probably worth trying but cannabis lets your ECS do what it is designed to do---seek homeostasis.
     
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  19. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    so after reading that my rec on omega three may not work because of conversion to endocannabinoids and NL genes.... adding Fully Formed cannabinoids ( FFC) into that system does not require as much endo production and the ECS can signal via exogenous cannabinoids... now that it is known people need to get out of their preconceived ways and let it happen
     
  20. His_Highness

    His_Highness In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king

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    2,170
    As an un-educated outsider on this topic .... it sounds like ABA and Cannabis don't have to be mutually exclusive when developing a treatment plan. It sounds like they may even compliment each other. Perhaps ABA is more easily leveraged in combination with cannabis.

    I would defer to a doctor and/or someone who has been working in this area for many years. Hands-on personal experience counts. In some cases the parents I've met with autistic children were such strong advocates and so passionate that they eventually began working in the industry after being trained/educated.

    After decades of helping their own children and other familes navigate different treatments and the public resources available....these are the folks whose advice I would take.
     
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  21. OldNewbie

    OldNewbie Well-Known Member

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    Another brick in the wall.

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour.../D5CAA12A5F424146DABB9C6A6AB4CB56/core-reader

    Increasing evidence points towards a dose–response relationship between the level of cannabis use and the risk for psychotic outcomes, 1 4 and also indicates that cannabis use results in earlier onset of psychosis. 5 , 6 Most longitudinal studies have taken reverse causation into account by excluding individuals with pre-existing psychotic symptoms, which could have led to overestimates of the true association. 7 Moreover, most of these previous studies have focused on psychotic symptoms rather than psychotic illness per se. Several studies have examined the impact of psychotic baseline severity in relation to the cannabis use–psychosis association (for example Arseneault et al, Henquet et al, Kelley et al and Bechtold et al). 8 11 To our knowledge, there is only one prospective study examining cannabis use and psychosis diagnosis (schizophreniform syndrome) that has taken baseline psychotic (prodromal) symptoms into account as a potential confounder before or at the time of cannabis use. 8 Furthermore, cannabis use often co-occurs with other types of substance use, which may also have an impact on the psychosis outcome. 12

    The aim of this study was to examine the predictive association between adolescent cannabis use at age 15–16 years and the risk of subsequent psychosis by the age of 30 years in the Northern Finland Birth Cohort Study 1986 (NFBC1986). An association between cannabis use and prodromal symptoms in adolescence has been reported previously in NFBC1986. 13 We hypothesised that cannabis use increases the risk for psychosis independently of baseline prodromal symptoms, parental psychosis and other forms of substance use including daily tobacco smoking.
    Concluding:
    Adolescent cannabis use is associated with increased risk of psychosis even after adjustment for baseline prodromal symptoms, parental psychosis and other substance use.

    [​IMG]
     
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  22. MinnBobber

    MinnBobber Well-Known Member

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    ................................................................
    Yes, another brick in the wall of mud and it's certainly a muddy study, at best :)
    Their bottom line claim would be that 66 15-16 year olds who SMOKED cannabis "5 times or more"
    were about 3% points more likely to develop a psychosis by 30 years old.

    For me, not a very compelling study!

    What I find compelling is hundreds of families with autism spectrum disorder kids are reporting miraculous results, when years of previous drugs and therapies did nothing and often made it much worse. That's real world results.
    Each story is an individual miracle, giving these kids and their families a new life. Why anyone would not see cannabis as the first medicine for autism, baffles me. It is the only medicine or treatment that has these kinds of results-period.

    And these kids already have a psychosis, severe autism, which is often mitigated by cannabis. Until DSM-3 , autism was a subset of schizophrenia.

    "The word "psychosis" refers to a range of conditions that affect the mind, in which there has been some loss of contact with reality. A person with psychosis is, at times, unable to tell the difference between what is real and what is just in their minds.

    Psychosis is characterized by significant changes in a person’s perceptions, thoughts, beliefs, and behaviours."


    The "bricks in the wall" that I give weight to are studies like the one which showed that a mutant NL5 gene is linked to autism AND to decreased endocannabinoid production in the body. That goes beyond the question of does cannabis work for autism (yes in many cases) and helps explain WHY it WORKS---- there is an internal endocannabinoid deficiency where phytocannabinoids (cannabis) act as a natural supplement.

    That's the key to it all---ECS Deficiency and supplementing it is key. Too much anti-cannabis stigma out there...
     
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  23. OldNewbie

    OldNewbie Well-Known Member

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    When you go beyond the science, you are being an advocate. That's not a bad thing as we all need advocates. But, you can't just dismiss inconvenient truths while stretching the facts we do know into unsupported claims and still be talking about science.
     
  24. MinnBobber

    MinnBobber Well-Known Member

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    And those that blatantly dismiss real world actual results, are locked into the dogma of science and only science counts.
    What part of "cannabis has worked on hundreds and hundreds of autism individuals/families" are you having issue with?

    And note that science is truly zeroeing in on ECS and that ECS Deficiency being the root cause of dozens of diseases---which also explains why cannabis then works on dozens of diseases----a seemingly impossible task UNTIL you know the connection.
    I'd have to say science is overwhelmingly showing extremely positive results of cannabis for all brain diseases---which makes sense as brain is jam pack loaded with ECS receptors, doing what they do---coordinating all body systems toward a state of balance.

    I'm having trouble comprehending where your issue is regarding giving cannabis to kids with autism....????
    1. If you had a child with autism, would you give them cannabis?
    2. Why would you or why would you not?

    You first ... ;)
     
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  25. chris 71

    chris 71 Well-Known Member

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    The study you link basicly said they cant say for sure . to me its just a lot of ring around the rosy , with egg heads and numbers. trying to mathmaticly find evidence to a link . i just cant understand how these people that do these kinds of studies can be so smart one way with numbers and figuring. But at the same time be so dence about human matters.

    The whole link if there even is a small one . could just as easily be put down to the possibility that people that maybe more suspitable to such mental health problems. , could be just more adept by nature to be more curious or maybe more thrill seeking or hold some other personality trait that predispose them to experiment more .

    It could be simple as that .

    The link may not be related to the substance at all. But more to the behavior of a certain personality.

    there are also studies that show smarter kids are more likely to try drugs . does this mean they could crunch the numbers and make a link , with fancy graphs and percentages and all kinds of stuff to show how there must be a link to drugs making these kids smarter lol
    they probably could . but would this make it known that drugs make you smarter i dont think so .

    just a lot of wasted time and brain cells on silly studies .
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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