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FDA's new regulations for e-cigarettes 08-08-16 - End of vaping devices 2018 in the US?

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by Hogni, Aug 29, 2016.

  1. Hogni

    Hogni Honi soit qui mal y pense

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    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    I have just heard about the new catastrophic FDA Law.
    Does it impact the US-market for vaping devices generally?
    No more vaporizers for herbs and concentrates? No mods and other necessary devices?
    I'm from Germany so its not my prob directly. But it would be a shame if such a lot of fine divices would disappear in two years :(
     
  2. Maitri

    Maitri Deadhead, Low-Temp Dabber, Mahayana Buddhist

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    Just east of the Emerald City
    Thank you for posting this. I was not aware of it. What makes this new law catastrophic?
     
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  3. Slow Draw McGraw

    Slow Draw McGraw Sticky Brick Labs Company Rep

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    1,674
    A real close friend in the industry was talking to me about this last week. I will wait until someone who knows the facts to post. I just wanted to chime in that I recently have heard about this.
     
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  4. Hogni

    Hogni Honi soit qui mal y pense

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    805
    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    Production of and trading with all vaping devices will be forbidden in the US up from 08-08-18 so I have understand. Technically there seems to me no evident difference between vaping devices for e-liquids, herbs and concentrates. So it could be that all FCs in the US have to return to combustion or have to buy their vaping devices on the black market, Mexiko or Canada. No US-american products anymore. Just stuff that already has been produced up to 02-15-07 will be allowed furthermore. What a f*** should this be?
    Will be private import forbidden too?
    May be I was misunderstanding. I'm only a german guy with poor english. Dont want to make panic, just interested.
    Just wondering that there was no discussion on this topic here up to now.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
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  5. Maitri

    Maitri Deadhead, Low-Temp Dabber, Mahayana Buddhist

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    Ah, got it, thanks! :) Two things:

    First, German guys are awesome. There is no such thing as, "just a german guy." Also, I am an American who speaks English natively and you can trust me when I tell you that your written English is really quite solid. In fact, I know several American adults who do not write as well as you. :)

    And second, can you show me what specifically inspired your concern about vaping devices in the U.S.? I looked at the great link you provided? By the way, thank you for that! I did not read the page super carefully but from what I saw, this seemed to be limited to nicotine based products. Did I miss something here? Heh, if I did, it certainly would not the the first time - today...
     
  6. Hogni

    Hogni Honi soit qui mal y pense

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    Location:
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    Aprecciate! Look here under "Retailer"

    If you mix e-liquids, make or modify vaporizers, or mix loose tobacco, and you also sell these products, you will be regulated as both a retailer and a manufacturer.

    Then tell the FDA "No, its not for tobacco and not for nicotine e-liquids, its just for weed and concentrates!"

    Do you believe they will reply "Ok, thats another case. Keep it up!" ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
  7. ZC

    ZC Well-Known Member

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    681
    Okay I think it's a bit alarmist to say production and trade will be "forbidden". This is regulation, not prohibition. Not saying it's a good thing but this isn't a ban on all vapes.

    I think a big question here is what constitutes a "tobacco" product here.

    Many herbal vaporizers do not suggest or support the use of tobacco, instead insisting they're for herbs like lavender, chamomile, etc. Underdog calls itself an aromatherapy vaporizer.

    How will these laws be enforced on products that make no claim for tobacco use?

    I for one am all for calling new products "personal breathe heater" or "air flavor enhancer" ;)

    From what I'm reading, this doesn't ban vapes, but the fees and research requirements basically mean the smaller manufacturers and the mom & pop shops are out of luck.

    From the FAQ
    So it could potentially cost a vape maker half a million just to get out the door. -assuming they're approved through the process.


    I dunno, I get where the FDA is coming from here -they're trying to catch up to ecigs and not let it get out of control and dangerous like regular cigarettes are, but it seems that these regulations are really just closing the doors for small businesses in this industry, and that's just not right. It's regulations like this that keep the 1% in power. When you have to be a millionaire just to attempt to enter a market, or to even have a part-time business, the rest of use are stuck in our place.
     
  8. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    Guys, from my reading of this, the central issue is that ecigarettes are being regarded as tobacco products and hence are subject to the same regulations as other such products.

    Cannabis vaporizers and essential oil vaporizers (actually, these are very similar in function and intended use to RDA's and I wonder how this will be treated by regulators!?) are not likely to be considered tobacco-related products and are likely to fall well outside of the scope of this ruling.
     
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  9. Hippie Dickie

    Hippie Dickie The Herbal Cube Manufacturer

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    It is illegal to make, advertise or sell cannabis paraphernalia anywhere in USA, which includes vaporizers. Still.
     
  10. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    4,077
    Perhaps, hence the use of those all-important vague terms: 'dry herb' or 'essential oil'.

    However, some vaporizer companies have actually tried to claim that tobacco was the intended use of their product so as not to not look as if they are selling cannabis products. This could be a problem in those cases depending on how regulators decide to deal with this.

    I recommend that any vape manufacturers currently using this 'this is intended for tobacco only' disclaimer to abandon it ASAP just to be on the safe side!
     
  11. Farid

    Farid Well-Known Member

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    683
    Just throw a "for aroma therapy use only" on there or something. Kind of like the "not for human consumption" labels they used to throw on semi legal psychedelics.
     
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  12. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,077
    I agree this is a better approach given the new emphasis on whether something is 'tobacco related'. Perhaps it would be wise to follow this up with: 'not to be used with any illegal substances, which may be harmful or fatal' and 'this product is not intended for use with tobacco or tobacco-related products'. ;)
     
  13. ichibaneye

    ichibaneye Vapriot, Traveler & Vaporizer/ing lover!

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    Location:
    U.S.A.
    One should say for various herbs and tincture. It's less alarming. Even though the F.oolish D.eceptive A.sses also loath other natural health ideas and products.

    What good is a monopoly if It's only an idea. You've got to run it for it to exists. :rolleyes:;)
     
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  14. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    If the guys at Magic Flight said it would apply to them (even mentioned it was a recommendation from their legal team IIRC?) then chances are it will be very bad indeed. This is why they rushed and announced all their future product prototypes before 8/8.

    It's more complex than it looks like but it's not good at all. Tobacco is a kind of "dry herb" and can be used in our devices.

    Interestingly it appears that Big Tobacco is behind all this shit, because they failed to react to the e-cig bloom (apart from some companies that bought some Chinese makers after a while) It's hurting their revenue, especially when it's advertised as a mean to withdraw from cigarettes.
     
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  15. psychonaut

    psychonaut Medcreational Member

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    559
    The industry in the US is on the verge of decimation. The folks who are going to be selling ecigs in the future are those big familiar names. Phillip Morris, RJ Reynolds. The small businesses built the industry in the US, and now the regulations they face are so far and above what they can afford, it's impossible. Big tobacco can afford it 1000x over. Whats happened is basically a hijacking of an entire industry at the hands of the federal government.

    I've said it about cannabis, and I think the same falls true here. If you're a vaper, you need to start learning how to do this stuff yourself. Make your own e-juice, learn how to build a safe box mod, nicotine is going to be the trouble to source, but perhaps we'll be able to buy a pack of phillip morris unflavored juice refills and extract the nicotine from them :rolleyes: It seems when it comes to the government and our health, we just cant trust them to have our backs.
     
  16. TastyClouds

    TastyClouds Member

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    22
    Another shameful example of greed driving the decisions in this country at the expense of what is right. I get what they are trying to do but the provisions in the law just wreak of big business interest. Why should we be FORCED to NOT buy or use products they claim is safe? It should be our choice. An "FDA certified product" label on the products the "approve" is fine. This is simply overkill and more micro regulation of business and our lifestyle choices. The FDA can dab a huge glob of earwax off a rusty nail.
     
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  17. Bad Ocelot

    Bad Ocelot Well-Known Member

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    The deeming regulations are pretty ridiculous. I am also a nicotine vaper and treating two very different things (tobacco & ecigs) as the same thing is, well, dumb. However it seems the regulations were in large part written by tobacco lobbyists with the goal of gaining a huge chunk of the market share of the now multi-billion dollar vape economy. So perhaps dumb is the wrong word, devious maybe?

    I certainly support smart regulation (accurate product labels, safe ingredients, batteries unlikely to vent while near my face, etc) but this is a flagrant power grab by big tobacco. There's a good segment from Samantha Bee's show on this matter from a few weeks back.
     
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  18. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    I couldn't find any clear figure but here's some info-graphic about tobacco tax in the US: http://blog.turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/how-much-is-the-government-making-off-of-tobacco-3345/

    And here an article saying it's declining: http://taxfoundation.org/blog/federal-tobacco-tax-revenues-are-declining

    Not a surprise that they want to kill an industry that is for the most part presented as a tobacco cessation mean... You think they would want to cut billions in tax revenue?

    So it's an understatement to say that Big Tobacco want a part of the pie, in fact they want to control the entire bakery! They lobbied hard and they got what they wanted: both the State and Big Tobacco will be happy. The former will be able to tax all vape products and the latter will retain control of the market and keep their leadership as they will be the only dealer around.
     
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  19. Maitri

    Maitri Deadhead, Low-Temp Dabber, Mahayana Buddhist

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    Great point - and additionally, the lawmakers appreciate all those lobbyist dollars that fund their reelection campaigns. You help me maintain my power and I will help you maintain yours so that somewhere down the line, you can help me keep my power so that somewhere down the line, I can help you keep yours. Rince 'n repeat...
     
  20. Vapor_Eyes

    Vapor_Eyes The map is not the territory

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    I found this part of the law interesting:

    What is the grandfather date?

    Congress wrote and passed the Tobacco Control Act, which states that any tobacco product on the market as of February 15, 2007 is eligible for grandfather status (this includes products that were in test markets).

    Otherwise, any products introduced or modified after that date are considered "new" tobacco products and must submit a premarket application to the FDA through one of the three available pathways.

    Source

    If they treat herbal vaporizers the same as e-cigarettes/tobacco vaporizers than that means almost all modern vaporizers currently on the market will be subject to these new regulations.

    Also, I wonder if it only applies to electronic devices. Would butane vapes be exempt?
     
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  21. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    From some explanations I heard, even getting said grandfather status is no warranty that the application will get approved, it's just that the company won't have to shell the several hundreds of thousands of dollars out for the application.

    I also heard that whatever the outcome, that money is lost. Meaning small businesses won't be able to afford it, and those who can will risk losing everything. It's possible that in the end they only approve products from Big Tobacco companies with huge financial backings...
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2016
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  22. Vitolo

    Vitolo Vaporist

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    It applies I believe to ecig cartomizers, and tanks and mods that were built after that date...
    Things made specifically to vaporize juices with nicotine.
     
  23. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

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    @Vitolo : that's what I thought at first, but apparently the legal team of Magic Flight think otherwise. This is why they released all their prototypes at once before the deadline. I hope it was just a safety move, but apparently if the product can be used to vaporize tobacco (even in dry form) then it can be considered to be a tobacco product.... it's braindead really... :/
     
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  24. ZC

    ZC Well-Known Member

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    681
    Haze vapes have also mentioned having to comply with the regulation.
     
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  25. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    I for one actually want to see US vape manufacturers regulated. It'd get rid of some of the questionable materials/design decisions we often see with vapes so far. Whether these regulations in particular go any way towards this is another question though!

    I have noticed a few vape manufacturers mentioning the regs might effect them too but nobody has seemed especially clear.
     
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