Ethanol tincture potency?

[StellarLarve]

Hi,

I have recently acquired a Pot by Noids, a nice little device that decarb / infuse / distill, with a brilliant filter and condenser attachment, and so far I have made two batches of ethanol extraction using the Pot.

One with a qwiso-ish method where I put the alcohol and the decarb’ ground flowers separately in the freezer overnight, then combine, shake, etc. then distill.
Another one where I soaked the decarb’ ground flowers in room temperature alcohol for a couple days, shaking occasionally, then distill till reduced to 50 ml, transvased into a little dark glass dropper bottle.

I would like advices and experiences feedbacks, as it seems to me that my tinctures are not as potent as they should/could be.

The second one was made with 6 g OG Kush, mixed with another couple grams high-CBD flower for a more balanced entourage effect.

at 16% THC = 6000 mg x 16/100 = 960 mg

960 mg / 50ml = 19.2 mg/ml

My reference for gauging potency are store-bought gummies at 5 mg THC each.
If my calculations are correct… 0.25 ml of my tincture should approximately amount to the same, so 5 drops should have roughly the same effect than a gummy, right?

I put 6 under my tongue with a bit of honey last night, and while the effects were there, it seemed to me than they were less noticeable. Maybe I am starting to develop a bit of tolerance, especially at so little dosage? Maybe my expectation is too high?

Noids claim that their decarb’ process is pretty efficient:

The extraction yield of the POT by NOIDS is close to the maximum.
The decarboxylation rate is 100% conversion from its acidic form to the activated cannabinoids. That is to say, after decarb, there is no CBDa left. However there is about 5-10 % loss of the total CBD during decarb using any method.

The infusion rate depends on the method and the type of oil used.

If you use olive oil or butter, the infusion rate is 90-95 % which is highest when using oil. If you use another oil, like coconut oil, the infusion rate is about 1-5% less depending on the specific oil.

If you extract wax with alcohol, it is close to 100%.

There are many variables in herb extraction/infusion. On top of that, the rates can be calculated using different methods. Although, we emphasise that decarboxylation plays the most important part in maximising the yield.

So… is that normal, or have I messed up something in the process?

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Tellus]

I think that it's just too low a dose. I haven't had gummies but 5mg is probably on the low side.

Your calculations are based on a 100% extraction rate. According to the quote from noids, they write that it is close to 100% with alcohol when using with wax.

But let's go along with a 100% extraction, then your tincture has a concentration of 19.2mg/ml just like you calculated. And I guess each drop is 0.05ml making 5 drops 0.25ml? So with 0.25ml doses your 50ml bottle of tincture makes almost 200 doses! Even with a 100% extraction rate, 200 doses from 6g doesn't sound really right to me

Edit: What I wanted to say is that you dont have to worry about your tolerance, yet!

 

[Nina]

I've no experience with alcohol tinctures so can't speak to your methods. However, I too feel that the dose is too low, I'm very careful about keeping my tolerance down and my edible dose is generally around 40mg thc

 

[RustyOldNail]

For anyone serious about alcohol extractions, unfortunately we lost one of our online experts last year.
RIP: “PsychedelicSam”

But his research and posts are still online. Years of posts to sift through, but I’ve learned more reading them, then anywhere else. Two threads to look at:

Another Tincture Thread - Try it, You'll like it

This is a prologue to a recipe I'm getting ready to post with the help of a GC friend. I've been teaching him how to make it by private message over...

forum.grasscity.com

Dragon Lite.....another Tincture Thread

Many of you may know me from my other main tincture thread, Another Tincture Thread - Try it, Youll like it That thread is a comprehensive look at the...

forum.grasscity.com

 

[AndyO]

Following!

As I mentioned in the POT by Noids thread I'm probably not quite as happy with potency as I expected to be. I know it works, but in terms of dosing, I've never just been able to do a couple of drops sublingually, as I expected to be the case based on all my research - I'm having to hold a good half a tablespoon of awful tasting, burning tincture to get decent impact.

 

[Ramahs]

Even with the store-bought tincture, I use at least a whole dropper (for reference, a dropper is about 80mg - 100mg THC in the stuff available around here). A few drops wouldn't do much. Not sure if the honey may be affecting you. I've only ever put just the tincture under my tongue, and I try to do it on an empty stomach (not always possible).

 

[StellarLarve]

Hey, thank you all for these feedbacks.

Thanks for the links @RustyOldNail, I’ll go and do some reading.

I am not questioning the dosage much, rather the extraction efficiency of my process.

I know 5mg is a tiny low dose. The thing is… I have been using these gummies almost daily for months now. They are a fantastic little «loosener» to take at night, an hour or so before doing some light yoga, or going to bed. A light drowsiness, dry mouth, a creeping smile… I can definitely feel the effects, even at such a low dose. Those, plus the vaping (also on the very low side, 1-2 Dynavap or Vapman bowl a day, maybe 3), I am certainly slowly building up some tolerance, but still.

At 100% extraction, 960mg / 50 ml, 19.2 mg / ml, considering 20 drops per ml, that should make 0.96 mg/drop, so around 5 drops to replicate the gummy effect, indeed.

I took 8 drops last night, so supposedly 7.68 mg, and while I definitely felt effects, they were not the same than the usual 5 mg gummy.

I suppose the strains, THC/CBD ratio, make for a different effect. But I also suppose something is not completely efficient in my process, and I have to account for some loss.

I’ll try to experiment and report more! Regardless of this questioning, It is so great and fun to be able to make my own medicine.

 

[StellarLarve]

Another thread with posts about the entourage effect and CBD made me realise that my gummies are heavily CBD dominant, with 5 mg THC plus 30 mg CBD.

So I wonder… maybe I was misjudging the effect of 5 mg THC, and this very low dose is enhanced by the CBD, whereas my tincture has less CBD, so different strain, different ratio, different effect…?

I will see if I can find a test kit or a lab, and see how much it would cost to analyse a sample to see the real cannabinoids amount in a tincture. I am very curious.

 

[RustyOldNail]

I have been using these gummies almost daily for months now.

Just a reminder. Anything you EAT, is going through your digestive system first, thus the slower onset.
If one makes a TRUE alcohol TINCTURE, and use it SUBLINGUALLY (under tongue), the onset should be more like 10-15 minutes, as it gets into the bloodstream FASTER.

I sure most know this already, but I mention it, as COMPARING the EFFECTS of both ways, may make comparing them, more difficult.

I didn’t get very far in trying to make my own super concentrated Ethanol Tincture. Even starting with high THC concentrates, there is just a limit to the strength one can make in a tiny volume of ethanol.

The BURNING effect of 190 ethanol under my tongue for 3 minutes is very uncomfortable, and probably not to great for the mouth tissues. Usually have to take a shot glass of water in addition to the tincture to help the burning, but that also dilutes the dose a bit. So I took a break from my tincture making experimenting for now.

The 2 links I posted above are a wealth of information from those doing these techniques for years.

 

[Tellus]

---

For anyone serious about alcohol extractions, unfortunately we lost one of our online experts last year.
RIP: “PsychedelicSam”

But his research and posts are still online. Years of posts to sift through, but I’ve learned more reading them, then anywhere else. Two threads to look at:

Another Tincture Thread - Try it, You'll like it

This is a prologue to a recipe I'm getting ready to post with the help of a GC friend. I've been teaching him how to make it by private message over...

forum.grasscity.com

Dragon Lite.....another Tincture Thread

Many of you may know me from my other main tincture thread, Another Tincture Thread - Try it, Youll like it That thread is a comprehensive look at the...

forum.grasscity.com

Ah grasscity, brings back memories. Yes there is lots of good infos out there

@StellarLarve
That changes things some, so you are familiar with the 5mg gummies. I wonder what extraction methods, solvents they use to make gummies?
But yes different modes of ingestion makes for different effects too. For example when ingested enzymes can convert from one molecule to another when processing edibles. That step is skipped when taking drops sublingual.

And like you wrote, I think it is hard for us to know how different ratios will affect you. But now you have something to do for a while, making different tinctures and taking notes

And maybe don't count on a 100% extraction? Would be interesting if you find somewhere to have yours analyzed, keep us updated.

@RustyOldNail Do you know any reason why you couldn't make a strong concentrated tincture? Does it have something to do with ethanol's saturation point? I will have to do some readinf myself now too

 

[feralcomprehension]

Fwiw I assume 75% extraction efficiency but results suggest even that is generous.

 

[General Disaster]

Just a reminder. Anything you EAT, is going through your digestive system first, thus the slower onset.
If one makes a TRUE alcohol TINCTURE, and use it SUBLINGUALLY (under tongue), the onset should be more like 10-15 minutes, as it gets into the bloodstream FASTER.

Further to this, sublingual route can start to take effects extremely quickly if done right, within a minute or two even!
But also, taking orally, i.e. swallowed immediately, not only does it take much longer to have a noticeable effect, but it's also a different high, as the metabolic route it takes through the gut involves a change of some of the compounds, providing a different profile to that on the plant originally.
The whole game is as different as smoking or vaping in what get's into that brain and how. Also, a well made MCT extract can work sublingually too, it's only really the concentration that most matters, there's a limit to how much you can hold under your tongue. So the alcohol is not unavoidable for those who find it uncomfortable to hold in the mouth.
Finally, it doesn't have to be under the tongue only, coating the inside of your mouth will increase the speed of absorption due to the larger surface area. The main issue I find is trying to keep the saliva levels down, since some terpene's can activate the saliva glands and this dilutes the extract while in the mouth, making it hard not to swallow any (if the fastest results are desired). I sometimes find keeping my mouth open (and breathing through mouth only) for a couple minutes so the saliva evaporates with my breathing while the oil absorbs. Often a couple of minutes is enough to absorb most of the dose.

 

[macbill]

I make alcohol tincture with 98% Everclear and decarbed concentrate. There are 591 drops in a dropper ounce. My goal is 10 mg THC per drop. So I need 5,910 mg THC from concentrate to reach 10 mg/drop. Legal concentrate in my state lists percentage of THC/gram. 1 gram = 1000 mgs, so 80% THC concentrate = 800 mg. Make sure you use THC and THC-A totals and not total cannabinoids in calculating THC/drop..

 

[sickmanfraud]

For anyone serious about alcohol extractions, unfortunately we lost one of our online experts last year.
RIP: “PsychedelicSam”

But his research and posts are still online. Years of posts to sift through, but I’ve learned more reading them, then anywhere else. Two threads to look at:

Another Tincture Thread - Try it, You'll like it

This is a prologue to a recipe I'm getting ready to post with the help of a GC friend. I've been teaching him how to make it by private message over...

forum.grasscity.com

Dragon Lite.....another Tincture Thread

Many of you may know me from my other main tincture thread, Another Tincture Thread - Try it, Youll like it That thread is a comprehensive look at the...

forum.grasscity.com

I have been making green dragon tinctures using these methods for over 10 years. Between 1-5 tinctures per month.

I would be happy to answer questions about tincture-making using frozen cannabis and ethanol.

For comparison's sake. I make my GD tinctures to a concentration of 6 grams per ounce of tincture. So I teaspoon is equal to 1 gram of cannabis.

For Capsules, I use 1 gram per ml.

I have mentioned this before, if someone is not allowed to have alcohol dosing is still easy. I put my GD into hot coffee which makes the ethanol flash off leaving the cannabinoids in the milk.

Edited to add:

One of the finest features of Green Dragon Tincture is the ability to concentrate the tincture until you have a strength that works for you. It is supposed to be dosed by the DROP, not the ounce or even a milliliter.

FYI, my concentration math is usually based on getting my cannabis by the 10-gram bag. If you measure in ounces or fractions thereof your math will be different.

@StellarLarve you may want to try a good old-fashioned oven decarb to be sure your Noids pot is working. Sam recommended, after extensive research, 240F for 40 minutes as being ideal.

 

[General Disaster]

As this thread is specifically ethanolic extraction related - I've never in browsing a few forums related to similar subjects, heard of anyone using soxhlet extractors for getting the initial products out of the plant and into the alcohol.

Does anyone know of these things? They aren't cheap, a moderate sized one would probably cost a good few hundred dollars, but these are things that you can simply fill with alcohol, weed, and apply heat. It then proceeds to extract the weed with portions of clean alcohol, for as long as want to leave it running. They are very popular in scientific procedures to extract all sorts of plant compounds, often to then run tests on those compounds (what they are, how much is in there, etc etc), and are perfect for cannabis extraction with a number of organic solvents.

I'm just a little surprised they've never seemed to become known in the home cannabis extract field. They do need a safe place to set up - power, running water, drainage, but are actually moderately safe as they don't give off flammable or toxic vapours, unless knocked over, or opened up carelessly (i.e. safe with proper use). Even better, they are very economical with the solvent, and thus good value to run, and environmentally less damaging.

I have mentioned this before, if someone is not allowed to have alcohol dosing is still easy. I put my GD into hot coffee which makes the ethanol flash off leaving the cannabinoids in the milk.

Just to say that in fact you won't get all the alcohol out even if you're boiling the living fuck out of it.
This isn't a big deal, the amount is small, almost certainly barely noticeable, and not toxic in any realistic way.
But never rely on this if the solvent is at all toxic!!!!
If you have ethanol and water (coffee whatever) mixed, even if you try to distil/boil all the alcohol out, there comes a point when the remaining alcohol can only evaporate off mixed with a certain amount of water vapour! This is why you can't just distil alcohol to above about 66% under normal conditions.

 

[sickmanfraud]

But never rely on this if the solvent is at all toxic!!!!

That is why we use ethanol vs. ISO.

 

[darkstar72]

Agreed on PschedelicSam's thread from GrassCity having good info. Here is a link to a Green Dragon Cookbook pdf with his method and some recipes.
I used an InstantPot on the saute setting to reduce out the alcohol and transfer the (cannabis oil / RSO) to olive oil. The Everclear tincture under the tongue (sublingual) burned too much. Adding olive oil to the alcohol reduction step and burning off the alcohol yielded 1.5 dropper bottles of potent infused olive oil.

 

[General Disaster]

... burning off the alcohol ...

Just curious, what method do you use?
Or was that the saute bit?

 

[RustyOldNail]

Just curious, what method do you use?
Or was that the saute bit?

I bought a used Source Turbo, to reclaim most of the 190 Ethanol.

SOURCE Turbo Concentrate Extractor | ExtractCraft

The ExtractCraft Source Turbo allows you to easily make high-quality botanical oils at home with a safe, simple and economical process.

extractcraft.com

 

[General Disaster]

I bought a used Source Turbo, to reclaim most of the 190 Ethanol.

SOURCE Turbo Concentrate Extractor | ExtractCraft

The ExtractCraft Source Turbo allows you to easily make high-quality botanical oils at home with a safe, simple and economical process.

extractcraft.com

Oh ok, just to look at it, I'd guess it essentially heats the solvent, which condenses above the plant material, constantly dripping clean solvent on to it, and collecting in a reservoir below by gravity where the solvent gets boiled off again (but in a constant flow)?
Is that right?

 

[RustyOldNail]

Oh ok, just to look at it, I'd guess it essentially heats the solvent, which condenses above the plant material, constantly dripping clean solvent on to it, and collecting in a reservoir below by gravity where the solvent gets boiled off again (but in a constant flow)?
Is that right?

Close. Brief unscientific description.
After you do a 1-5 minute wash of your herb, that’s herb in a ball jar, covered with ethanol, left in freezer. You are just interested in the frozen trichomes falling off, and not a long soak, to avoid plant material being introduced to the fluid.
You run the saved liquid through a Buchner filter, add that cleaned solution to the Source heater cup. The unit boils under vacuum, you put ice trays on top so the ethanol collects and drops down, it is supposedly the same ethanol content and clean, 90-95% reclaimed ethanol, as 190 proof isn’t cheap, or easy to get in many states, unless you overpay and buy it in a liquor store.
I haven’t experimented with it too much, but it does work. I just don’t have enough cheap flower, this would be better for someone that can grow their own, and make their own concentrates.

 

[darkstar72]

Just curious, what method do you use?
Or was that the saute bit?

Yes, the IP saute mode with a thermometer in liquid showed the temp was higher then boiling temp of alcohol but less than temp that would evaporate THC. Forget the numbers. Can use a rice cooker instead. The boiling off reduces alcohol and increases potency. Yes the alcohol is expensive but I prefer to inhale so don't use the edible stash often. Have found the infused olive oil handy when stealth is priority.

 

[sickmanfraud]

Yes, the IP saute mode with a thermometer in liquid showed the temp was higher then boiling temp of alcohol but less than temp that would evaporate THC. Forget the numbers. Can use a rice cooker instead. The boiling off reduces alcohol and increases potency. Yes the alcohol is expensive but I prefer to inhale so don't use the edible stash often. Have found the infused olive oil handy when stealth is priority.

If anyone decides on making tinctures often it is very worthwhile to buy an alcohol recovery still. Depending on your usage a still may pay for itself in a few months.

Anyone who wants to avoid alcohol can make a solvent transfer to coconut or MCT oil.

Taking a known amount of tincture and adding it to a measured amount of sugar can get their dose into the sugar and then you can figure out how much cannabinoids (how much sugar) to add to your food or drink.

Ethanol tinctures are very versatile. If you have a couple of ounces of tincture you can make edibles whenever the mood strikes you or the need arises. There would be no need to make cannabutter or cannaoil from the plants.

IMO edibles made with cannaoil from tincture taste much better than edibles made by boiling fat and cannabis.

 

[General Disaster]

Close. Brief unscientific description.
After you do a 1-5 minute wash of your herb, that’s herb in a ball jar, covered with ethanol, left in freezer. You are just interested in the frozen trichomes falling off, and not a long soak, to avoid plant material being introduced to the fluid.
You run the saved liquid through a Buchner filter, add that cleaned solution to the Source heater cup. The unit boils under vacuum, you put ice trays on top so the ethanol collects and drops down, it is supposedly the same ethanol content and clean, 90-95% reclaimed ethanol, as 190 proof isn’t cheap, or easy to get in many states, unless you overpay and buy it in a liquor store.
I haven’t experimented with it too much, but it does work. I just don’t have enough cheap flower, this would be better for someone that can grow their own, and make their own concentrates.

Oh! I thought it was heating solvent and soaking the weed in it (prior to the buchner filtration and vacuum evaporation).
I see, so it's essentially a heating/condensing unit? With a built in electric vacuum pump? To do a frozen trichome extraction?

 

[RustyOldNail]

Oh! I thought it was heating solvent and soaking the weed in it (prior to the buchner filtration and vacuum evaporation).
I see, so it's essentially a heating/condensing unit? With a built in electric vacuum pump? To do a frozen trichome extraction?

Below is a link to the SOURCE TURBO “Manual”, if you are interested in the details.

https://extractcraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/SourceTurboManualV12_125w_ampamendment.pdf