Does Cannabis mess with our natural “normal” brain rewarding system?

Jojofernz

Well-Known Member
THC is much potent than all of these... except than drinking alcohol XD (if you meant it by "drink"... not sure ;) )
sex, sugar, anaerobic exercise, will make you feel "high" for minutes... even less.. vaporizing 0.2gr weed rich in THC can get you high for dozens of minutes..
Working out makes me feel good for hours, if not all day. And I would say the “high” sex lasts much longer than just a few minutes as well…
 

GoldenBud

Well-Known Member
Working out makes me feel good for hours, if not all day. And I would say the “high” sex lasts much longer than just a few minutes as well…
Well, I didn't want to describe it too graphically, but neither sex or working out will make you feel like you're flying in the sky for many minutes...
I mean, maybe you will fly for less than a minute from anaerobic exercise, after each set, or for few minutes from sex, but from THC you can feel the flying effect for dozens of minutes..

Other than that, sex, anaerobic exercise, surfing waves in the beach, you invest energy in these activities, then getting some reward
Using THC at home you just sit and vaporize weed, you get free reward without investing energy... I don't think our reward system should be working like that.... (excluding medical users)

Important to mention that I do support using THC also for recreational users, because sometimes you just don't wanna exercise, or leaving your house for doing any kind of activity, or just maybe you don't have a partner for sex, but everyone already knows my opinion about using THC everyday, few times a day. I don't need to discuss it.
 
GoldenBud,

bhasma

Well-Known Member
Hirvonen et al. (2012) showed recovery in two weeks, but D'Souza et al. (2016) found that after only two days of abstinence the CB1 receptor availability was still lower but not significantly different from non-user controls.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4742341/

If your cannabis use makes you feel "downregulated" then downregulate your consumption until you're happy. And any cerebral CB1 dysregulation should autocorrect within days. :)
 

GoldenBud

Well-Known Member
CWS = Cannabis Withdrawal Syndrome


"
There are some evidences that the discomfort due to CWS is similar to that found during tobacco withdrawal14,79 or a moderate alcohol withdrawal syndrome.36 Inpatients detoxifying from heavy cannabis use were rated to be “moderately ill” at the peak of CWS according to CGI-S.36 For a first orientation, inpatients suffering from acute schizophrenic episodes and patients with acute depressive episodes in outpatient settings have been rated in the majority to be “severely ill” and “moderately ill,” respectively.36 Strong CWS can mimic eating disorders associated with gastrointestinal symptoms, food avoidance, and weight loss of adolescents.81
"

I think CB1 is just a "player" in a much bigger system
 
GoldenBud,

Radwin Bodnic

Well-Known Member
In conclusion, we report for the first time decreased CB1 receptor binding in cortical, but not in subcortical, brain regions in chronic daily cannabis smokers, and that this downregulation is reversible after ~4 weeks of abstinence."
Could this down regulation be what we call tolerance ?

If I understand well, less cannabinoids receptors = less neurons affected by cannabinoids = less effect from THC.

If it's the case then the 4 weeks needed to recover our CB1 receptors should be the minimum required duration for a tolerance break.


Edit : didn't saw the most recent posts while I was writing. So it could be just a few days instead of 4 weeks to recover all our CB1 receptors and thus our tolerance.
 
Radwin Bodnic,

darbarikanada

Well-Known Member
Could this down regulation be what we call tolerance ?

If I understand well, less cannabinoids receptors = less neurons affected by cannabinoids = less effect from THC.

If it's the case then the 4 weeks needed to recover our CB1 receptors should be the minimum required duration for a tolerance break.
fewer cannabinoid receptors almost certainly translates into less effects from similar dosages, i.e. tolerance, but this is pretty recent research, so I imagine further research will clarify things.

how long a tolerance break people need will depend on how high their tolerance was to begin with; I wouldn't expect one number (e.g. 4 weeks) to work for everyone.

fortunately, tolerance is pretty easy to check...
 
darbarikanada,
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Zuhdj

Charles Mingus
Hi everybody,

I’ve been reading about how Cannabis can affect to our daily perception when you are not high, and how it can mess with our natural brain rewarding system. I remember watching the “Amy” (Winehouse) documentary when she got the Grammy, and instead of enjoy that exciting unique moment, she said something like “ oh, everything is so boring without drugs….” to a close friend. That made me think about how some activities I used to enjoy back in the past that now doesn’t seem to be so rewarding because I’d rather do them while high.

I found this article quite interesting:


From the article: “Also unfortunate is that chronic exposure leads to substantial consequences. The brain adapts by downregulating the cannabinoid system so that without copious amounts of pot onboard, everything becomes dull and uninspiring”

I know this is the oppinion of a heavy addict, personal experience, etc, but sometimes I feel like I don’t enjoy certain activities that I use to do when vaping cannabis (hear music, watch a movie, play an instrument…) that much when I do that activities totally sober, which I used to enjoy before. Or maybe is just perception, because everything seems to be better when you enhance it with weed.

I’d like to hear your personal experiences, about the loss of interest in the “cannabis unenhanced world”, if you think that cannabis can mess with our naturally appreciation and enjoyment of life, making us craving for weed to have the same rewarding sensation from certain activities that were good enough to enjoy them without being high.
I use cannabis daily for the last few years or so and I can say that when I take a break for a few days, my appetite and attitude are my main symptoms. Maybe it's different person to person
 
Zuhdj,

bhasma

Well-Known Member
There is downregulation of CB1 receptors in the cerebral cortex of chronic cannabis smokers, but whether it is due to less receptors or a reduced affinity of receptors with their ligands is unclear. The lower availability (however it occurs) is directly related to tolerance. And the peak of withdrawal symptoms occurs after two days of abstinence, as the residual THC disappears and the availability of CB1 receptors returns towards normal. It can take up to 28 days for all THC to leave the body and up to 28 days for full recovery of CB1 receptor function, but most of this is completed in the first few days.
 

bhasma

Well-Known Member
The symptoms of cannabis withdrawal include irritability, anxiety, sleep difficulty, decreased appetite, depressed mood, and perhaps abdominal pain, shakiness, sweating, fever, chills, or headache in the first week of abstinence. The best way to avoid increased tolerance and any potential discomfort is to not use every day. Even daily use of small amounts should not cause any serious problems, but heavy daily consumption can be problematic (increasing tolerance and severity of withdrawal symptoms). Withdrawal from alcohol or opiates in the worst case can be fatal, and cannabis withdrawal is comparatively minor. Pre-existing psychological problems can cause additional complications. And the answer to the original question (does cannabis mess with our brain rewarding system?) as @bulllee has succinctly noted is "yes".
 

Curious Gorilla

Sounds like something smells purple.
Not sure I believe in "Our Natural Normal Brain Rewarding System" as a measurable thing beyond general theoretical ranges, Due to the VAST number of interactions and reactions in the human system to external and internal influences.
Any activity that we do that raises our dopamine levels, including exercise, can cause an 'addiction' to dopamine.
I used to love going over 140 mile an hour down motorways in the dead of night on my motorbike, occasionaly. That could become an addiction that will kill you outright in under a second. Or get you arrested......
What kind of 'reward system' is it that drives us to do things that are so dangerous? Ask Rock Climbers too.
Even just breathing if You do it right raises dopamine levels.
One thing about alot of studies i see is that many of them base their information around smoking Cannabis, as opposed to vaporising it.
Some are based on concurrent tobbaco use, which alters Cannabis somewhat.

Stoping Combusting completely was far harder than if I had to stop vaping. And i was vaping when i stopped Combusting.
I believe part of the issue with stopping cannabis is the rebalancing of the COX 1 and 2 receptors and the connected signaling pathway which takes some time to recover and has many other effects apart from just dopamine.
Studies on the Cytokine Pathways are a Vast Dark Sea of maybes ,possibly, could, should, might, may, seems to, appears to, needs further consideration of and research....and thats the wording in the studies, let alone whats in my head.... (Thankyou @bhasma for an expanding pool of information that seems to leak out of my sieve like brain, as i scrabble to grab all my marbles.)
The fact such a potent drug doesnt unbalance our systems completely is one I am very grateful for (thankyou Existence) and one reason why it is fantastic both therapuiticaly AND recreationaly, although i beleive most people who use it recreationaly could well be classed as self medicating.
But then so is a daily morning Cup of Coffee......or a Beer or Wine of an evening if thats your preference.
That doesnt mean Cannabis does NO harm..... or is for everybody.
Somewhere there is a study done in France some years ago ranking different drugs by Harm caused and safety profile(cant remember the title), hwith 3 levels of harm.
out of Amphetamines,Cocaine, Morphine, Tobbacco, Alcohol, Caffiene, Cannabis and possibly a couple of others, I think only Cannabis and Caffiene were in the lowest harm group. Morhine was only in the second group. Alchohol was in the top harm group.

I found this article quite interesting:

She admitts to having an addictive nature, stopping after 10 years she still put the craving down to physical addiction. But she gives NO information on her use of cannabis to qualify ANYTHING She says.
She is just denying the fact she has an addictive personality. She seems to be Judging Herself and Others.
She said "There’s been a long-standing debate, akin to one about the relationship between cancer and smoking, about whether regular marijuana smoking leads to an amotivational syndrome (“amotivational” means lacking motivation). Does regular use lead to spending long hours on the couch watching cartoons, or does it just so happen that people who like to sit around watching mindless television also enjoy marijuana?" bULLSHIT ! like much else in the article.
She seems unaware that Television is know to be highly addictive and can reduce motivation in and of itself.
It has been refered to for many years as the Opiate of the Masses.
And was used as such, instead of as the greatest leap in education the world could have seen.
She also seems unaware of the benefit to creativity that most Musicians (and other artists) who have ever used cannabis find hugely helpfull.
But then i doubt she listens to Bob Marley. Reminds Her too much of what She is missing.
Or maybe she never really smoked in the first place.

Nuerology is plastic, it is not set in stone and is vastly altered by nuture and life experience (and epi-genetics), many people who have serious addictions have suffered trauma at an early age.
Some people without any real past trauma can struggle with self control for many reasons. We are all Human. We are Only Human.

She is Off Her Trolley. The article is an Advert for Her book, not a Scientific Article.
I suspect for her the Money is 'Never Enough,Never Enough,Never Enough,Never Enough,' and money is a far bigger Addiction Problem Worlwide , causes more problems, misery, inequality and is far more missused .
Where are all the Nuerological studies on Greed Addiction to Money and Power?

Cannabis is the Apple. The leaves are too small to cover much modesty tho.

According to a Current Psychotherapist and former Drug worker of over 20 years experience Cannabis does not cause long term or permanent issues with dopamine receptors or the signalling pathway. Or any long term physical addiction. To Her knowledge and experience. Threre are drugs where there is evidence that suggests this could be an issue .
Can We view Addiction as a seperate issue to the drug or activity one is addicted to?
 

GoldenBud

Well-Known Member
According to a Current Psychotherapist and former Drug worker of over 20 years experience Cannabis does not cause long term or permanent issues with dopamine receptors or the signalling pathway. Or any long term physical addiction. To Her knowledge and experience. Threre are drugs where there is evidence that suggests this could be an issue .
Cannabis 20 years ago had much lower concentration of THC other than the Cannabis we know today, in many countries... I never checked it with HPLC but i think the cannabis 20 years ago in most countries had 5% THC in average and today it's maybe 25%..... today it can be addictive as you can see here:


"
There are some evidences that the discomfort due to CWS is similar to that found during tobacco withdrawal14,79 or a moderate alcohol withdrawal syndrome.36 Inpatients detoxifying from heavy cannabis use were rated to be “moderately ill” at the peak of CWS according to CGI-S.36 For a first orientation, inpatients suffering from acute schizophrenic episodes and patients with acute depressive episodes in outpatient settings have been rated in the majority to be “severely ill” and “moderately ill,” respectively.36 Strong CWS can mimic eating disorders associated with gastrointestinal symptoms, food avoidance, and weight loss of adolescents.81
"


I think even 10 years ago it was a bit rare to find high quality Cannabis in many countries....
 

bhasma

Well-Known Member
Many original strains had 15-20% THC and Thai sticks (for example) were widely available long ago.
 
bhasma,
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Jojofernz

Well-Known Member
Not to mention hash has been a thing forever. Also that article you have posted several times now has already been ripped apart to be pretty untrustworthy.
 
Jojofernz,
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bhasma

Well-Known Member
Not to mention hash has been a thing forever. Also that article you have posted several times now has already been ripped apart to be pretty untrustworthy.
Not to mention the excellent hash oil that was coming out of India! (I'm remembering the early 1980s, and the story I was told is that someone who worked in a lab producing THC had taken his method to India, where the Cannabis supply is infinite)

The article is fine, but it doesn't need to be double posted, and the isolated quote could be misleading. Inpatients detoxifying from heavy cannabis use were rated to be “moderately ill” at the peak of Cannabis Withdrawl Syndrome (on the fourth day of abstinence) and outpatients with acute depressive episodes (unrelated to CWS) have also been rated "moderately ill”, while inpatients suffering from acute schizophrenic episodes (unrelated to CWS) have been mostly assessed as "severely ill”. I'm not sure why this was worthy of emphasis. The important line to notice is that "the discomfort due to CWS is similar to that found during tobacco withdrawal".
 
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bhasma,

Curious Gorilla

Sounds like something smells purple.
Cannabis 20 years ago had much lower concentration of THC other than the Cannabis we know today, in many countries... I never checked it with HPLC but i think the cannabis 20 years ago in most countries had 5% THC in average and today it's maybe 25%
Were you really smoking Cannabis 20 years ago? From Your opinions on what it used to be like i doubt it.
The Original strain of UK Cheese was some Seriously Strong Cheddar. and from before 25 years ago. Can you say Northern Lights? A.K.47? jACK hERER?
The period when Cannabis could be considered more addictive is from when it was being bred to have maximum THC and minimum CBD or any other cannibinoids. Look up when Skunk first appeared.
That has all changed in recent years, with more CBD being bred back into the mix.
Cannabis even 30 years ago could be stronger (THC wise) than most of todays offerings. You know NOT of what You speak. Or have only had some really shit cannabis in the past.
I am begining to be uncertain You have ever tried Cannabis. Have You ever considered using it to Quit I buprofen?
inpatients suffering from acute schizophrenic episodes and patients with acute depressive episodes in outpatient settings have been rated in the majority to be “severely ill” and “moderately ill,” respectively.36 Strong CWS can mimic eating disorders associated with gastrointestinal symptoms, food avoidance, and weight loss of adolescents.
Bhasma explained above what i wanted to in reponse to this better than I.
Any one still an adolescent should NOT be taking ANY kind of phsychoactive drug unless medicaly needed.
That could contribute to the above mentioned illnesses, no doubt, but alchohol and other drugs also make these conditions worse, more so than cannabis. I believe.
So do many of the Pharmacuitical treatments prescribed by the medical profession, unless it works for the specific individual.
"The CWS severity is dependent on the amount of cannabis used pre-cessation, gender, and heritable and several environmental factors. Therefore, naturalistic severity of CWS highly varies."
In other words, it has very little to do with Cannabis.
Or in other words..
"The CWS severity is dependent on the gender, heritable and several environmental factors. Therefore, naturalistic severity of CWS highly varies. and is not mainly dependant on Cannabis use, but MAY, MIGHT ,COULD POSSIBLY OR NOT be at all connected to Cannabis use ."

Much supposed information on offer is just the medical industry trying to take or hold on to control of people and their money, because Cannabis represents a loss of vast amounts of revenue and control already. And I do mean a cost of billions a year to the pharmacuitical industry.
Why do you think the opiate crisis was manufactured ? At least in part.
People use cannabis. Instead of ibuprofen or stronger N.S.A.I.D.s or other Pharmacuitical Drugs. Because it is healthier and far less addictive.
The same is true with other recreational drugs.
Name ONE that does less harm than Cannabis ?
Car exhaust fumes are far worse for your health than vaporising cannabis. Or smoking it ,in my opinion.

Strangely, i have heard quitting cannabis can effect your ability to allow other people to enjoy it due to a case of the Raging Arseholes. If the condition continues past the first month it may be incurable.
Possibly my addiction to cannabis and feeding myself brain rewarding drugs is to prevent my own case of Arseholism.
Mrs Gorilla feels it may be too late for me already as i can be an intractible arsehole even when ON Cannabis........
This does not appear to afflict everyone, and requires more study.......
Wheres my Weed?
Wheres my Arse?
 
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budski

cantre member
It has been refered to for many years as the Opiate of the Masses.
And was used as such, instead of as the greatest leap in education the world could have seen
This^^^ my wife's drug of choice, it aint her couple hit's cbd a day causing velcro butt.
Strangely, i have heard quitting cannabis can effect your ability to allow other people to enjoy it due to a case of the Raging Arseholes
This is very true in AA circles, (I sure as hell didn't come here to "have a meeting") My Raging arsehole syndrome or RAS, only comes out after 5-6 beers and not after cannabanoid reset.
 

GoldenBud

Well-Known Member
Were you really smoking Cannabis 20 years ago? From Your opinions on what it used to be like i doubt it.
yes i did..
I am begining to be uncertain You have ever tried Cannabis. Have You ever considered using it to Quit I buprofen?
ibuprofen helped me with the CWS i had, it helped the headaches and the flu-like symptoms
Any one still an adolescent should NOT be taking ANY kind of phsychoactive drug unless medicaly needed.
i agree, recreational users shouldn't use THC every day, maybe every other day or every 3 days

and i do agree about the hash, was very potent. i didn't like it back then, was even too potent for me. i liked the mellow 'weak' weed.

search "cannabis withdrawal syndrome" in https://scholar.google.com/ the amount of information is enormous..
 
GoldenBud,

bhasma

Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone disagrees that regular heavy use of cannabis can cause some withdrawal symptoms on cessation, but everyone is affected differently, and any physical symptoms should ease within a week. CWS is real, but at worst it is a passing "moderate illness". I think tobacco is more addictive than cannabis, and influenza is more debilitating than any CWS.
 

bhasma

Well-Known Member
The various receptors work in concert to maintain the body's balance. An open receptor is one state and a filled receptor is another, and there is headroom for modulation up and down. If the system is flooded with an active molecule the receptors will take up what they can and the excess will be metabolised and excreted or perhaps stored (as THC is retained in fatty tissues). The endocannabinoid system has a natural function, and if the receptors are constantly filled by extrinsic molecules then the body will gradually produce more receptors (not because it craves more of the drug but because it is trying to balance normal functioning). And then if the cannabinoid supply is suddenly withdrawn there may be too many open receptors and the system is left unbalanced.
In the case of CB1 receptors it is not true that "if the receptors are constantly filled by extrinsic molecules then the body will gradually produce more receptors", although the discomfort of withdrawal is caused or exacerbated by the rapid increase in receptor availability over the first few days of abstinence, and the problem is "too many open receptors" leaving the system unbalanced. So it seems that the problems of CWS are due to a shortage of ligands rather than a deficiency of receptors. And there is probably much more going on.

And the question arises: If cannabis reduces the availability of cannabinoid receptors, and it provides more than enough ligands to make up, does downregulation actually make any difference beyond increasing tolerance?
 
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bhasma

Well-Known Member
Any serious reference that is not from Reddit? Is there evidence that a normal cannabis user who is not stoned and not in withdrawal is any different from a normal non-user? Going from sustained heavy use to complete abstinence overnight is bound to be uncomfortable, so a gradual reduction (if possible) makes more sense. And becoming reliant on other drugs while coping with sudden withdrawal doesn't help. But if cannabis isn't diminishing your life then I can see no good reason to stop.
 
bhasma,

GoldenBud

Well-Known Member
Is there evidence that a normal cannabis user who is not stoned and not in withdrawal is any different from a normal non-user?
But if cannabis isn't diminishing your life then I can see no good reason to stop.
I agree, if you can afford it and believe the thc is fine for your lungs it's alright. i just try to avoid any addiction to any substance. in my case i was addicted. not gonna happen to every thc user on earth/in this forum

about Reddit, even if 50% of the people are lying, which sounds insane to me, it's still a lot of people which are having CWS/PAWS.... and these screenshots are only from the last 20 days, there are a lot of them if you search the forum there for the last 200-400 days, not only 20 days back....
 
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GoldenBud,

bhasma

Well-Known Member
I wasn't asking for random references, but this is what I have learnt:

Complicated withdrawal may occur in people with concurrent mental health and polysubstance use.

Cannabis withdrawal does not carry a high risk of severe adverse outcomes. The presence of medical or psychiatric comorbidities such as polysubstance use and dependence may result in more severe complications and symptoms of cannabis withdrawal, necessitating additional management.

In most instances, cannabis withdrawal is not severe and does not have a high risk of severe adverse outcomes. Medical or psychiatric comorbidities increase the risk of severity and the requirement for additional management.

Because many cannabis withdrawal symptoms are not specific to cannabis, a differential diagnosis needs to determine if they are symptoms of a comorbid mental disorder or medical condition.

A key tool in a differential diagnosis is the cessation of cannabis use with 24–48 hours of onset and an improvement in symptoms after 4–7 days of abstinence.

A differential diagnosis requires assessment of concurrent mental health disorders, symptoms of which may be exacerbated by or mimic cannabis withdrawal.

As with other substances, an incremental and slow reduction in cannabis intake and/or use of lower THC products over an extended period (weeks) may reduce the probability and severity of withdrawal symptoms.

Psychiatric comorbidity is common, with the two most common mental health problems (besides substance use disorders) mood and anxiety disorders.

Reddit's "Weed PAWS" is not a Cannabis problem, it's a mental (or other) health problem.
 
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