Divine Tribe atty's

[ragnorokk]

Hey guys, what have you been doing to keep your nug close to the heater in the DC? I find my load creeps up toward the mp while I hit, and some bits always fall out of the top when I open it. This makes anything but the lowest vaping temps nearly impossible. I've only had a handful of times to use it, so perhaps a solution will dawn on me, but if someone has a better suggestion than "pack it real good," I'm game for trying it.

 

[OF]

Hey guys, what have you been doing to keep your nug close to the heater in the DC?

I get frustrated and fight it, neither good solutions. That is to say I have no better ideas yet.

More over, I find that the load collapses enough that simply pushing it down leaves a big gap at the top inviting migration on the next hit. I'm reluctant to start with screens/plates on top, but that might be the solution in the end? The glass flowers some of us use in Ascent:
http://www.amazon.com/Glass-Screen-...1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

have great potential here I think. You could poke the 'stem' down into the load and have the 'pedals' keep the herb in place (as it does in Ascent). A toothpick should still empty the load easily and the flowers are easy to pick out of the ABV when cool (typical Ascent loads use seven for me).

I also give passing thought to topping it up with ABV after it collapses.......

Like the TC issue using the DC cart I was kinda hoping if I kept busy elsewhere someone would crack it for us perhaps? They still have a little time.

Lots of opportunity out there.....

OF

 

[ragnorokk]

I get frustrated and fight it, neither good solutions. That is to say I have no better ideas yet.

More over, I find that the load collapses enough that simply pushing it down leaves a big gap at the top inviting migration on the next hit. I'm reluctant to start with screens/plates on top, but that might be the solution in the end? The glass flowers some of us use in Ascent:
http://www.amazon.com/Glass-Screen-...1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

have great potential here I think. You could poke the 'stem' down into the load and have the 'pedals' keep the herb in place (as it does in Ascent). A toothpick should still empty the load easily and the flowers are easy to pick out of the ABV when cool (typical Ascent loads use seven for me).

I also give passing thought to topping it up with ABV after it collapses.......

Like the TC issue using the DC cart I was kinda hoping if I kept busy elsewhere someone would crack it for us perhaps? They still have a little time.

Lots of opportunity out there.....

OF

Screen is really the best I've thought of, too. Damn.

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

Glass spacer should work if you find just the right size. I have a davinci ascent glass spacer on my desk and tried to put it inside the DC mouthpiece, but it's just a bit too big to fit.

I think a SS screen that is cut to just the right size in a circle / oval, and bent into a bowl shape so that the center of it sticks down and covers the middle orifice of the atomizer base of the DC, might work. Just would take a little bit of work cutting/bending.

Then I just put an arizer extreme Q screen into the mouthpiece... it fits, but it's too tall, you can only slip the mouthpiece over 1 o-ring, not both. Flatten or cut short the arizer screen?

Not something I wanna work with now, I haven't used that thing too many times. Not being able to function in TC modes and the excess heat buildup everywhere (esp. mouthpiece) have kept me from using it more, and are more important issues than the herb load flying loose, IMO. I think the putting on a silicon strip cover, similar to Steven's idea to adapt the 2.7 cap to his hydratube bubbler, would help alot with the hot mouthpiece, but I'm gonna be waiting for the v3.0 donuts and v2.0 DC dry herb to invest any more hope or effort into. Hopefully lower resistances for all.... mmmmm.... sub-ohm

Anyways.....

(pivot)

We haven't had any progress on the tubing/hose issue for a few days, probably because I'm the only guy whose problem that is and cares that much about it, right? USplastics never got back to my email (boo-hiss them) and I've been too busy with other vape projects to call them, but due to one of the said side-vape projects, I have acquired some thick 5/8" ID (3/4" OD) food grade (but not medical grade?) silicon tubing and... it kind of works for connecting the 2.5 base to your glass globe/bubbler!

Bob says, "Jah bless dem dab pipes, and dem babylon materials from which dey made, mon."

A close up

6" of this hose came in my DDave arizer extreme Q mod kit, it's intended as use as an anti-kink guard which you slip over a smaller diameter silicon hose of the same type, in contact with hot glass for long periods and with vapor passing through it. Surely these materials are safe for my connector too? It would be downright criminal for Dave to provide us with anything less and I don't doubt him!

I cut pieces roughly 1" long. When the 2.5 base and glass are firmly united with the silicon hose, its hold feels very firm, even more so than the PVC, but its more annoying and difficult to slip on / slip off because we now have silicon o-rings on the base rubbing against a silicon tube, and they don't slide over each other as easy as PVC.

When slipping on the glass globe, I must orient it 90* counter-clockwise from it's intended point of rest when installed, because you must carefully twist the silicon clockwise while you press it down on the o-ring of the base. If you push straight down, you will push the o-rings out of their grooves in the atomizer. If you twist CCW, you will be unscrewing the atomizer from the threads on your mod and not get it all connected tight. This is all stuff I had to do with the old PVC connector, but the friction of silicon-on-silicon is much greater and I have to follow this even more carefully now.

Worth it all if I'm not breathing any phthalates or catalysts now, right? What do you think, OF, Fernand, meets your approval? I still need to accquire some smaller sizes to finish this off, because the short hose connector on the top of my globe is still pvc, but I'm making progress, I think?

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

Hey wSup guise....

I'm glad that some of you enjoyed my "donut p0rn" I took a few more pics of some reloads, and even edited and arranged them sequentially for you to see before-and-after without clicking multiple pics

The last series were slightly idealized, unrealistic models, kinda like the victoria secret gurls of donut dabbing. I don't always clean after every sesh, sometimes a dozen or so or more before the crust gets too much and I clean it. These raunchy, oiled-up donuts here are more "mature" and worn-in, like some milfs that are 6's & 7's but YOU KNOW you would still hit it Cuboids too. 200w. Anyone like "plus" sized models?

Big mods need luvin' too.

Top left, before the re-load, on the grey cuboid. That's empty crust that won't vape or scrape. Not purty

Middle, a fresh lil dablet of some gorilla glue 4 shatter. I enjoyed vaping this gram very much, it's nearly gone now. Took months...

Top right, 2 pics with the donut covered in a fresh load. I just took a toothpick and pushed it down to evenly cover the donut. This one has a pull'n' snap consistency that made it easy to mold without sticking to the tool too much. Just put some lipstick on that pig!

And bottom, how it looked after 1 very nice 10 second hit. Good for serveral more. Nice how it has a semi-even pool of fresher oil with the old crust underneath peeking through, right?



And here we have my old SS cuboid. Serving donut duty on some lamb's bread shatter.

Top, how that mofo looks after "vaped empty" yet it's still sporting some crust since I haven't cleaned it for several reloads.

Middle, that's the bread the lamb eats. From jamaica.

Bottom, just put that little pebble right in the middle, didn't have to mold or pre-melt. No after-vape pic this time. Looks like a smaller load than the one above

And finally, my white evic VTC, serving sour diesel co2 oil. This ones like my bottom b1tch, the first evic VTC I bought, been on sativa co2 duty almost from the start, and vaping on the same 2.5 base that was twisted into her from the very start, probably also my oldest 2.5 base still on active duty as well. Must have vaped at least 4g of co2 oils over a year+ on that beezy.

Probably been a half gram at least since the last cleaning! You can see the crust to show it. I bet most of you guys would have cleaned long since, and it may look gross, but actually has almost no taste, and doesn't affect reloads.

On the right, a tiny dablet of sour diesel co2 oil schmeared over that crusty bagel.


Week's starting up! Enjoy your dabs, ladies n gents

 

[OF]

I cut pieces roughly 1" long. When the 2.5 base and glass are firmly united with the silicon hose, its hold feels very firm, even more so than the PVC, but its more annoying and difficult to slip on / slip off because we now have silicon o-rings on the base rubbing against a silicon tube, and they don't slide over each other as easy as PVC.

Have you tried removing the o-rings? Not much need for them if there's no MP cover to hold on......

I bet the tube seals against the glazed ceramic just fine, and won't fight you half as much?

OF

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

Top o' the morning to you, OF. Or time to go to sleep?

Glad you still got interest in this little tubing project of mine....and... U R geeniuz...

I took off both O-rings from a base and it still grips super tight. Don't have to struggle with it now, it's very forgiving to the manner in which I slip it on now

The only way this is kind of annoying is that I have to slip on the O-rings again when I want to use it with the regular mouthpiece, or the pinnacle water tool, etc. but I think that's still easier than the delicate dance of silicon-on-silicon friction.

The way I had this before, when I removed the base from the tube, it was gripping so tight I think I felt the seal between the metal base and the ceramic housing rocking a little, testing the ceramic glue holding the two parts together. Good thing I only was doing this for one day.

 

[ragnorokk]

Glass spacer should work if you find just the right size. I have a davinci ascent glass spacer on my desk and tried to put it inside the DC mouthpiece, but it's just a bit too big to fit.

I think a SS screen that is cut to just the right size in a circle / oval, and bent into a bowl shape so that the center of it sticks down and covers the middle orifice of the atomizer base of the DC, might work. Just would take a little bit of work cutting/bending.

Then I just put an arizer extreme Q screen into the mouthpiece... it fits, but it's too tall, you can only slip the mouthpiece over 1 o-ring, not both. Flatten or cut short the arizer screen?

Not something I wanna work with now, I haven't used that thing too many times. Not being able to function in TC modes and the excess heat buildup everywhere (esp. mouthpiece) have kept me from using it more, and are more important issues than the herb load flying loose, IMO. I think the putting on a silicon strip cover, similar to Steven's idea to adapt the 2.7 cap to his hydratube bubbler, would help alot with the hot mouthpiece, but I'm gonna be waiting for the v3.0 donuts and v2.0 DC dry herb to invest any more hope or effort into. Hopefully lower resistances for all.... mmmmm.... sub-ohm

Anyways.....

(pivot)

We haven't had any progress on the tubing/hose issue for a few days, probably because I'm the only guy whose problem that is and cares that much about it, right? USplastics never got back to my email (boo-hiss them) and I've been too busy with other vape projects to call them, but due to one of the said side-vape projects, I have acquired some thick 5/8" ID (3/4" OD) food grade (but not medical grade?) silicon tubing and... it kind of works for connecting the 2.5 base to your glass globe/bubbler!

Bob says, "Jah bless dem dab pipes, and dem babylon materials from which dey made, mon."

A close up

6" of this hose came in my DDave arizer extreme Q mod kit, it's intended as use as an anti-kink guard which you slip over a smaller diameter silicon hose of the same type, in contact with hot glass for long periods and with vapor passing through it. Surely these materials are safe for my connector too? It would be downright criminal for Dave to provide us with anything less and I don't doubt him!

I cut pieces roughly 1" long. When the 2.5 base and glass are firmly united with the silicon hose, its hold feels very firm, even more so than the PVC, but its more annoying and difficult to slip on / slip off because we now have silicon o-rings on the base rubbing against a silicon tube, and they don't slide over each other as easy as PVC.

When slipping on the glass globe, I must orient it 90* counter-clockwise from it's intended point of rest when installed, because you must carefully twist the silicon clockwise while you press it down on the o-ring of the base. If you push straight down, you will push the o-rings out of their grooves in the atomizer. If you twist CCW, you will be unscrewing the atomizer from the threads on your mod and not get it all connected tight. This is all stuff I had to do with the old PVC connector, but the friction of silicon-on-silicon is much greater and I have to follow this even more carefully now.

Worth it all if I'm not breathing any phthalates or catalysts now, right? What do you think, OF, Fernand, meets your approval? I still need to accquire some smaller sizes to finish this off, because the short hose connector on the top of my globe is still pvc, but I'm making progress, I think?

The material creep is actually a huge issue for me, as it seems to perform ok initially, then I start to bump up the heat as it moves, which would inevitably result in overheating the whole unit (too hot to use comfortably, anyway). I had no problem getting vapor on the first rip after packing it down each time I hit it, and didn't think the heat was as bad that way. Kind of a pain to have to open it back up every time I want to hit it, since it spills all the bits that have crept up and out of the oven.

@divinetribe Maybe if the mp had a ceramic screen on the center of a an inner chimney, that could tamp down and/or hold the load when the mp was fitted in place, the performance would be improved.

 

[fernand]

@Vape Donkey 650 I think you are quite right about the errors. I've been trying to get a white DT 2.7 unit and a black e-bay zigzag coil unit "dialed in". I'm not concerned here with how they vape, I first want the temp to be reasonably accurate, then adjust temp. And I'm finding it really hard. I have a thermocouple meter, an IR gun and mercury thermometers. The calculation I believe goes like this:

R0 is resistance at base temp in ohms
RT is resistance at high temp in ohms
DeltaR = RT - R0
T0 is base/room temp in celcius
TT is high temp in celcius.
DeltaT = TT - T0

So here's an eVic VTC mini run last night
on a DT 2.7 ceramic atomizer in TC mode with M2 TCR = 220,
wattage 12.0 and target temp 350 F. We measure:

R0 = 0.85 ohms
RT = 1.15 ohms
DeltaR = 0.30 ohms
T0 = 25 deg C
TT = 215 deg C
DeltaT = 190 deg C

Right off the bat we see that the temp is overshooting,
215 deg C = 419 deg F, not the desired 350.

Here's the calculation: (@OF does this agree w/ yours?)

Evic TCR = ( (DeltaR / R0 ) / DeltaT ) * 100,000

TCR = (0.3 / 0.85) / 190 * 100000
TCR = 186

Now that's way off from 240. And even 220. So which is right? Well, since we were overshooting, it seems that 220 was too high. So the 186 is plausible. (And maybe I got the calculation all wrong?)

Still, with TCR set to 186 I get closer to target temp as measured.

Which works better? Of course if you just want to vape w/ more heat, then 240 will deliver. But what temp are you getting? It doesn't matter if you're just after results, you can adjust whatever, until you like it. I would rather try for the kingdom, if I can, then raise the target temp.

But why this difference? I think that the difficulty of measuring TT is a huge source of uncertainty. The donuts do not heat up evenly. Even if you measure with the thermocouple immersed in oil or glycols, heat flows faster in the donut than in surrounding fluids, so you get big differences depending on where you place it. With a mercury thermometer you can't immerse more than the tip of the bulb. Using an IR gun with E set to 0.50 isn't bad but the uneven heating doesn't go away and it's so fast that you have to learn how to average or disregard the instantaneous peaks.

None of these methods provide a super accurate reading of the temp that most of your shatter sees. I suppose if we filled a deep dish DT with mineral oil we might get a better temp reading, but somehow flavoring a DT atomizer that way is asking a lot.

Another problem is the non-linearity you point out and that we don't yet know the extent of. And there's the controller itself. It too is having a hard time measuring temperature as it aims to control it. If you're building a mod using inexpensive chips, or emulating that using, say, an Arduino, you don't have a lot of fancy circuitry. Your A/D inputs are 10 bit with at best a reference pin, and your D/A are usually just filtered PWM. This isn't lab equipment. There's a lot of slop here.

I'm not at all complaining, BTW, this is excellent techno, and aeons further along than what we had even a year ago.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[OF]

Right off the bat we see the temp is overshooting,
215 deg C = 419 deg F, not 350.

[COLOR=#ff8000]Here's the calculation: ([USER=7683]@OF does this agree w/ yours?)

Evic TCR = ( (DeltaR / R0 ) / DeltaT ) * 100,000 [/COLOR]

Even if you measure with the thermocouple immersed in oil or glycols, heat flows faster in the donut than in surrounding fluids, so you get big differences depending on where you place it. With a mercury thermometer you can't immerse more than the tip of the bulb.[/USER]

I got lost, how is it you're so sure the delivered temperature is 419F? I tried to confirm at 3990F (where I think I can judge results as similar to other vapes at that temperature) with the TC, which I think I did. Otherwise that seems correct. The reals number is in PPM so the approximate 2450 PPM (.245%) per degree C change is inputted as '245' in 'VTC Mini speak' (saves a space on the display?).

In the end the actual temperature of the heater isn't important but what is is the working surface where hot meets concentrate? FWIW I got basically the same reading 'dry' as with oil in the cup. Heat flow models guarantee that the heater is actually hotter than that of course.

In the end, the air conditioner temperature that really counts is what is happening at the boss's desk?

Your assumption about Mercury based lab thermometers is incorrect. That's covered too. Next time you're near one, notice the ring around the stem low down (usually below the scale)? That's the i[B]mmersion line it's calibrated to read correctly at[/B]. Important for important measurements. There's also a 'response time' spec to step changes in bath temperatures. Something on the order of 'how many seconds until a 10 degree shift is again reading in spec' kind of thing. This is important for things like calorimeters where temperatures are changing over time. Lucky for us we really don't need that sort of precision.

As you say, if the 'what' (performance) is what you are looking for, the 'why' that is happening isn't really all that important. As long as we can repeat the performance we want on demand the 'party down' light is lit.

OF

 

[fernand]

@OF The high temp ~ 420 F was measured, with the three instruments in rough agreement, no better than +/- 15 deg F.

What is my incorrect assumption about mercury thermometers?

 

[OF]

What is my incorrect assumption about mercury thermometers?

That immersion depth is a calibration factor (the black ring). How important a factor depends on the application of course, but it's taken into account.

OF

 

[fernand]

Huh? Of course lab thermometers are calibrated for specific body immersion depth, as you previously said, but never for not even covering the bulb, which is the best that can be achieved in this case. I was just saying that even the classical old mercury thermometer doesn't give a reliable reading with our donut atomizers.

 

[fernand]

Got one the Stateside Water Tools on e-bay. I've never used the original Pinnacle version, but this is a thick glass, stands up well on a desk when uncoupled from the atomizer, the artifacts of the handmade process are minimal, i.e. it's only internally a little bit crooked. Looks and performs well. Got it in 3 days, twenny three bucks shipped. Looks like they are sold out for now.

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

Hey cool you're all pinnacled up now. That's at least three of us here now. I usually expect minor flaws when I buy mass produced glass pieces, but having the percolators not line up is the thing I have the least tolerance for, since that's what matters the most. Looking at yours, it seems fine, doesn't seem crooked at all from what I can see.

One difference I can notice, between the pinnacles I got from sunshinestore on DHGate, is that the "up stem" that comes first in the vapor path from the mouthpiece / 14mm joint, before it reverses and goes into the water / perc, your upstem seems to have alot more space between the roof. Looks Like yours has a few mm more clearance, my upstem is very close to the roof, maybe 2-3mm gap.

I wonder how that would affect the performance? Maybe allows more airflow, but also more easily allows for water to spill back into the mouthpiece if tilted?

But damnit.... you and OF made me do something I haven't done in years....

algebra.

@Vape Donkey 650 I think you are quite right about the errors. I've been trying to get a white DT 2.7 unit and a black e-bay zigzag coil unit "dialed in". I'm not concerned here with how they vape, I first want the temp to be reasonably accurate, then adjust temp. And I'm finding it really hard. I have a thermocouple meter, an IR gun and mercury thermometers. The calculation I believe goes like this:

R0 is resistance at base temp in ohms
RT is resistance at high temp in ohms
DeltaR = RT - R0
T0 is base/room temp in celcius
TT is high temp in celcius.
DeltaT = TT - T0

So here's an eVic VTC mini run last night
on a DT 2.7 ceramic atomizer in TC mode with M2 TCR = 220,
wattage 12.0 and target temp 350 F. We measure:

R0 = 0.85 ohms
RT = 1.15 ohms
DeltaR = 0.30 ohms
T0 = 25 deg C
TT = 215 deg C
DeltaT = 190 deg C

Right off the bat we see that the temp is overshooting,
215 deg C = 419 deg F, not the desired 350.

Here's the calculation: (@OF does this agree w/ yours?)

Evic TCR = ( (DeltaR / R0 ) / DeltaT ) * 100,000

TCR = (0.3 / 0.85) / 190 * 100000
TCR = 186

Now that's way off from 240. And even 220. So which is right? Well, since we were overshooting, it seems that 220 was too high. So the 186 is plausible. (And maybe I got the calculation all wrong?)

Still, with TCR set to 186 I get closer to target temp as measured.

Which works better? Of course if you just want to vape w/ more heat, then 240 will deliver. But what temp are you getting? It doesn't matter if you're just after results, you can adjust whatever, until you like it. I would rather try for the kingdom, if I can, then raise the target temp.

But why this difference? I think that the difficulty of measuring TT is a huge source of uncertainty. The donuts do not heat up evenly. Even if you measure with the thermocouple immersed in oil or glycols, heat flows faster in the donut than in surrounding fluids, so you get big differences depending on where you place it. With a mercury thermometer you can't immerse more than the tip of the bulb. Using an IR gun with E set to 0.50 isn't bad but the uneven heating doesn't go away and it's so fast that you have to learn how to average or disregard the instantaneous peaks.

None of these methods provide a super accurate reading of the temp that most of your shatter sees. I suppose if we filled a deep dish DT with mineral oil we might get a better temp reading, but somehow flavoring a DT atomizer that way is asking a lot.

Another problem is the non-linearity you point out and that we don't yet know the extent of. And there's the controller itself. It too is having a hard time measuring temperature as it aims to control it. If you're building a mod using inexpensive chips, or emulating that using, say, an Arduino, you don't have a lot of fancy circuitry. Your A/D inputs are 10 bit with at best a reference pin, and your D/A are usually just filtered PWM. This isn't lab equipment. There's a lot of slop here.

I'm not at all complaining, BTW, this is excellent techno, and aeons further along than what we had even a year ago.

Thoughts anyone?

Let me clear up a few things first: that formula IS what joyetech / eleaf / others are doing with the 1-999 TCR values we can input?

For RT, are we choosing for our resistance to rise 0.3 Ω because that is what we have observed and we like it, or is there something more inherent or mathematical for this value I'm missing here? Because sometimes I like it to rise 0.35 Ω over cold, when I'm calling for my "hotter" temps. How does this hotter request effect the relationship between variables?

And, TT is the temperature that we are calling for, or is that an observed temperature?

Still not sure what those variables should be, I went and ran the formula a few times with the help of my good ol' microsoft pals, notepad and calculator.

I have several low 0.7x Ω bases and I'm trying to get my coil 193c (380F), but my house isn't as hot as fernand's, more like 21c (70f). I expect that to be a 0.30 ohm rise on most coils.

R0 = 0.72
RT = 1.02
DeltaR = 0.3
T0 = 21
TT = 193
DeltaT = 172
242.24 = ( (0.30 / 0.72) / 172 ) * 100,000

So hey... that's pretty close to what I'm using. Or is that just because I'm working backwards with known variables that I use?

But let's say I want that hotter coil to finish the load. That could be a 0.33 rise, or even 0.35 is what I see sometimes with 410-420F for my setting. Let's say here I want 0.35 rise and my screen to say 420F (215c)

R0 = 0.72
RT = 1.07
DeltaR = 0.35
T0 = 21
TT = 215
DeltaT = 194
250.57 = ( (0.35 / 0.72) / 194 ) * 100,000

So now my TCR is a little higher. What does that mean, that I should dial in the TCR a little higher if I want it to be accurate at higher temps? lol idk. too much math making my brain hurt now, but we're not done.

I also have some 0.8 Ω er's. For some reason, I've never liked the higher resistance donuts, I've always felt I've gotten hotter, less consistent vapor with them, when using the same settings, even without TCR, on TC-Ni, I might ask for 300 or 310F when I would ask 320-330 with a 0.70 ohm coil to meet my taste.

But here's a test: my highest donut, I'm asking it to rise 0.3 Ω and hit 380F?


R0 = 0.83
RT = 1.13
DeltaR = 0.3
T0 = 21
TT = 193
DeltaT = 172
210.14 = ( (0.30 / 0.83) / 172 ) * 100,000

So that's a much lower TCR value. Does that mean we should dial in a lower number if our donut base resistance is higher?


Let's take it further, I want my high Ω donut to rise 0.35 now and hit 420F for me.

R0 = 0.83
RT = 1.18
DeltaR = 0.35
T0 = 21
TT = 215
DeltaT = 194
245.16 = ( (0.35 / 0.83) / 172 ) * 100,000

Wow! That number looks familiar again! So maybe that number is just right for a resistance of that range that wants to hit those 400-ish temps. But maybe I'm making the fallacy of working backwards with figures of incorrectly assumed meaning and origin?

I need OF to intervene and tell me it's ok.... Either way he wins because he made me do algebra!

That's all the merth I'm gonna do right now, but I still have to recognize the other inherent limits: our donuts don't heat evenly, are we calling for peak temps or average temps in the donut/lower cup area?

And of course, our mods are not thermometers, they are just pretty accurate at reading ohms Ω , and dispensing watts and volts in rapidly modulating ways. So if I'm getting this, that means that getting that cold base resistance measured correctly and locked in matters immensely in getting these TC mods to work as intended!

I'd say 80% of all problems I've seen with these (and other) sub-ohm attys working on TC mode in some degree has been due to not reading the base Ω correctly, and it can make your vape way too cold or burn up your hash very easily. Being off 0.02-0.03 Ω can be annoying, being off 0.1 Ω or more can mean black ash on your clean donut, or even breaking it with too much wattage

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

Got one the Stateside Water Tools on e-bay. I've never used the original Pinnacle version, but this is a thick glass, stands up well on a desk when uncoupled from the atomizer, the artifacts of the handmade process are minimal, i.e. it's only internally a little bit crooked. Looks and performs well. Got it in 3 days, twenny three bucks shipped. Looks like they are sold out for now.

For the price of this tool and the adapter, it's not bad at all. A great value actually. sunshinestore slanged em to me for about 18 each, and the atmos silicon MPs only another 5. I set up a pair of these combos for under 50 bucks so that's a steal. Thanks china! Is that smiley racist in this context? or this one haha

Unlike you, I'm not quite as comfortable with this tall, top-heavy thing standing on my desk. It balances well but could tumble down if you *bump* your desk hard enough. And we can't let it lay sideways or it will spill. I was thinking about steven's solution to holding his pinnacle tool when attached to his mod while driving, I think he said me made a holder/stand out of cork. Nice.

I don't have cork but I did have some foam blocks from a bunch of old vape accessory packaging (davinci ascent glass stems) With the materials of a master carpenter: foam, toothpicks and scotch tape; I found a way to stand up some of my loose cuboids on my desk. Now I fear not to have a pillow fight or dance party near my dab lab.

I tried to match the angle that you took the pic of your pinnacle tool. It does look like my upstem is closer to it's roof than yours.

Shabby vape chick? I'm thinking of getting a few pieces of fabric or felt to wrap around these to class em up s'more. I like to balance the functional with the aesthetic. I've only been here a few weeks and getting so many ideas from joo guys already!

 

[fernand]

There's a guy on e-bay that's 3D printing vaporizer/water tool stands! He'll probably make anything you can spec!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Arizer-Air-...hash=item1a13fa9988:m:mAF9Lty1B9y52b6v5roF2mg

 

[insideoutman]

Hey guys, first time poster, recent lurker here...

Im getting ready to pay for a eleaf/40w TC, along with a 2.7 (deep bowl) and 2.5 combo (shallow/deep) pack, oh plus the pick set... I've found a "niche" use I'm gonna be using this for in a few weeks. Thanks for all the info provided in this thread! Its a little too daunting for me, without an atty in hand to test/grasp the things said, although I've knocked out a good 1/4 of this thread.

I already have my eyes on an evic VTC mini! Actually, thats my question. Should I just get that? Is there anywhere in comparison, where the eLeaf 40TC is more convenient for this application?

I think I'm just gonna pull the trigger on the eLeaf though, and probably just pick up a evic on the side if there's no major caveats. TIA!


(BTW: background info:
I've been a mech mod, bottom feeder (reo grand exclusively) user for two years+ (nicotine)
I recently purchased a Mighty for dry herb. 'nuff said )

edit:

So… I'm not a huge poster on here, but felt I needed to interject something. Bc I keep hearing this thing about the iStick 40W TC only does TC at 40W, so it's blasting at 40W the whole time.

This is simply not true IME and there are two ways to prove this to yourself. One is to either look in the mirror while you hit it— so you can watch the real-time W readout in the bottom left of the screen. The second is to hit your CDA at 40W in W mode, attempting to pulse it at about the same pace as you see in TC mode. You will crack the donut before even completing the very first hit.

I and several others who have accidentally left our device in W mode at or near 40W can attest to this. Near 30W, you can pulse a couple times and *not* break the donut if you notice it fast enough. Like "Woah this bad boy is hitting hard right now… What's the deal? Oh crap it's still in W mode." the CDAs can survive a couple pulses at 30W, but at 40W if you hold down for even one complete second, the donut cracks.

For these reasons I reject out of hand any claims that the iStick 40W TC only performs TC at 40W. You can see right on the screen it is not doing 40W the entire time. When I first fire on a cold donut, it might read in the low 30s for a split second but quickly goes down to more reasonable values. Not sure anyone knows exactly what algorithm it does use, but the iStick 40W TC mode is certainly doing something more sophisticated than simply firing at a steady 40W and dropping off when it hits the target resistance.

Furthermore, would like to note that after trying other adjustable-wattage-in-TC mods, I still think the iStick 40W is the best fit for the 2.5 CDA of all the mods I've tried. Mostly bc of the simplicity. I didn't find any benefit of adjusting the W in TC. And here's why…

The only real reason to turn the W down is bc people think it's "hammering" at 40W the whole time. It is certainly not bc they think the donut is getting too hot or heating up too quickly on the iStick 40W. This is why so many new people (who are new to CDAs coming from glass globe or other atomizers) think the CDAs don't hit hard enough. Since it turns out not to be true anyway (in my understanding) that the iStick simply does 40W the whole time, plus some feel it takes too long for the CDAs to get up to temp, it seems to me that this turns out to actually be an argument for turning the wattage *up*. Certainly, turning down to 12W in TC (at least on three different mods I tried this with) did not hit any better than the default TC mode on my iStick 40W.

But turning the wattage up didn't seem to do much except stretch out the resistance of my donuts. Once the cold resistance gets over 1.0, the donuts will not work in TC on most mods and only work in W mode after that. Yes, they started producing vapor faster, but it ruined the donuts.

All the TC adjustments the iStick lacks would only be necessary for me if I intended to also use the mod for devices other than 2.5 CDAs. True, there's only one TC mode (no Ni vs Ti, etc, but… it's the perfect setting for our CDAs). There's no adjustable TCR value (but the built in curve seems perfect for our CDAs). And there's no adjustable W in TC (but again, the built in algorithm seems to be perfect for CDAs).


This is a lot of words that boil down to my belief/experience that:

1. iStick 40W TC does not simply bang at 40W the entire time.
2. Changing the W values in TC mode, for me, did not provide any substantial benefit, certainly none that were proportional to the extra complexity involved (or the risk of ruining donuts).


I'll add that after going through several mods with replaceable 18650s, I'm considering buying a second iStick 40W TC bc the battery life is on-and-on. The last half, certainly last third or quarter of any 18650 battery charge is totally bunk. However, I still get great hits out of my iStick 40W down to the last 5th of the battery charge. Back when it was my daily driver mod, I would vape nic and concentrate all day long on the single charge, only recharging at night when asleep. But now I switch batteries about 3 or 4 times a day— that is just for my Nic rig. The iStick 40W is now dedicated to CDAs, and I never hit the CDAs on any other mod. I carry around both devices, kinda sucks. Been thinking to buy second iStick and just carry it as a backup instead of carry all those loose batteries.

I realize others have had different experiences w iStick vs other adjustable-W-in-TC mods and maybe it's bc I haven't tried it on those exact same mods. I did this on iStick 60W TC (yes, W is adjustable in TC, has Ni and Ti modes), KBOX Mini 60W (same adjustment capabilities) and a friend's mod that I didn't get the brand name on. Head said it was a clone of something but I don't remember of what.

^Thanks~

 

[OF]

But damnit.... you and OF made me do something I haven't done in years....

algebra.

Let me clear up a few things first: that formula IS what joyetech / eleaf / others are doing with the 1-999 TCR values we can input?

For RT, are we choosing for our resistance to rise 0.3 Ω because that is what we have observed and we like it, or is there something more inherent or mathematical for this value I'm missing here?

First off, I'm really sorry.......I sure never intended to drive anyone to Algebra.......

My head is spinning from trying to follow all that, please let me cop out and take another lash at this?

First off, this is a materials thing. Best thought of in those terms I think. The resistance to current flow in most metals and alloys (mixtures of metals) goes up with temperature. The material expands, it's a longer jump to the next atom, and the atoms are vibrating more so they're 'harder to hit'. This means more atoms 'bounce back' the wrong way, lowering conduction and raising resistance. But it's a percentage deal, not absolute numbers. If a piece of the metal goes from .6 to .9 Ohms (a .3 Ohm rise) that exact same material will go from 1.2 to 1.8 Ohms (now a .6 rise) if it's twice as long or half as big in cross section area (or some combination of that). We need to think it terms of percent (or PPM, which is 10,000 ths of percent. A typical metal (like Copper) rises about a third of a percent per degree C (about .18% per degree F), we seem to be a little less than that, closer to 1/4% per degree C.

So, if we want to heat to say 200C starting from 20C we need a 180 degree rise? Times .25% per degree and we get about a 45% rise. If we start at .6 Ohms that would be .87 Ohms (.6 X 1.45). The mod will apply heat until it hits that resistance value (target), no matter what the temperature really is. If you want more heat you an either dial up 210C and see or adjust the 'percent per degree' number. If you want ten degrees more (190C rise) you need to raise the M value by (190/180) so you'd try .264% instead (or 264 not 250 in the table. Using a larger 'percent per degree number' will cause the mod to calculate and therefore seek a higher resistance instead. And that means the heater has to get hotter to make it to the new (higher) resistance.

Bigger M numbers make it hotter for the same target temperature since the mod is looking for a larger resistance rise?

FWIW I too seemed to get better action from lower resistance doughnuts, until this last one which reads .92 on the same mod and is doing just fine thank you very much......that could be because it doesn't have much use yet. For sure not as simple as it looks.

Hey guys, first time poster, recent lurker here...

I already have my eyes on an evic VTC mini! Actually, thats my question. Should I just get that? Is there anywhere in comparison, where the eLeaf 40TC is more convenient for this application?

I think I'm just gonna pull the trigger on the eLeaf though, and probably just pick up a evic on the side if there's no major caveats. TIA!

First off, howdy! Welcome to the fun. As you know good guys and good information.

If you can I'd suggest you hold off on the 40TC since the TC function won't work and the internal battery can be less convenient than changing 18650s. The VTC Mini is much better, IMO. I have two TC40s, one is running 24 Watts on the DC cart, the other running 5 Watts on a 'vape pen' heater. I bought another Mini and retired the 40TCs to less demanding duty.

However, I suggest you also consider the Pico. It's a bit smaller, uses the same basic software, comes in more colors and is usually a bit cheaper. Once the Pico came to the house, the Minis started getting less use. Last one I got was about $35 shipped:
http://vapenw.com/istick-pico-kit-by-eleaf

FWIW, it seems these mods are all made by the same company, Joytech if you pull hard enough?

I'd recommend the Pico, and VTC Mini, then TC100W and Cuboid (dual battery versions of them) followed by the TC40. The first four will run TC mode on the 2.5 bases with an "M value" of 245 or so. The 40TC OTOH, is a VW only deal with the DC.

Regards,

OF

 

[Bad Ocelot]

Hey guys, first time poster, recent lurker here...

Im getting ready to pay for a eleaf/40w TC, along with a 2.7 (deep bowl) and 2.5 combo (shallow/deep) pack, oh plus the pick set... I've found a "niche" use I'm gonna be using this for in a few weeks. Thanks for all the info provided in this thread! Its a little too daunting for me, without an atty in hand to test/grasp the things said, although I've knocked out a good 1/4 of this thread.

I already have my eyes on an evic VTC mini! Actually, thats my question. Should I just get that? Is there anywhere in comparison, where the eLeaf 40TC is more convenient for this application?

I think I'm just gonna pull the trigger on the eLeaf though, and probably just pick up a evic on the side if there's no major caveats. TIA!


(BTW: background info:
I've been a mech mod, bottom feeder (reo grand exclusively) user for two years+ (nicotine)
I recently purchased a Mighty for dry herb. 'nuff said )

edit:



^Thanks~

I'll definitely second OF on the Pico. I have one & love it. Works well with the DT 2.5 & I frequently use it for nicotine as well. Currently has the Theorem by Wismec atop it. Possibly the best rebuildable atty I've found. Since you're a mech mod guy I'm gonna assume you already have a ton of 18650s & chargers laying around so that's another advantage to the pico.

However, if you're looking for something with an internal battery I'll throw a recommendation out of left field and suggest the Tesla Nano 60w. I use mine pretty much exclusively with the 2.5 now on the TC Ni setting at 230-250F & 9.5-10.5w depending on what i'm loading & it works like a charm. It's my daily driver and I only have to charge it once or twice a week (3600mAh internal Lipo battery). The lack of necessary & various setting fuckery is also a plus, ha. The temp meter on the screen never "reaches," or calculates, rather, the dialed in temp at that wattage level but it performs wonderfully. I've meant to check the temp inside the donut with actually accurate means but haven't gotten around to it for one reason or another.

Oh, I recently picked up a Crafty myself, pretty big fan of Storz & Bickel. Good stuff!

 

[fernand]

@Vape Donkey 650 The TT value isn't a target temp, it's the measured temp at the high temperature.

So we measure base (room) temp T0, say 21 deg C, and we measure the cold resistance R0. Then we heat it and observe resistance RT on the display, at a specific measured temperature TT. Then we plug these 4 values into the formula.

R0 is resistance at base temp in ohms
RT is resistance at high temp in ohms
DeltaR = RT - R0
T0 is base/room temp in celcius
TT is high temp in celcius.
DeltaT = TT - T0

Evic TCR = ( (DeltaR / R0 ) / DeltaT ) * 100,000 ​

We could heat it to any temp we want, to measure TT, as long as we simultaneously measure RT, the high resistance. And not crack the donut.

This whole time we don't care what the target temp was, what we want is TT, the MEASURED temp that corresponds to a specific RT resistance reading. Those 4 points graph a section of a straight line. The TCR is the slope, the steepness, of the line.

That graph answers the question: how high is the resistance gonna be at any temperature? That's what the processor in the mod is asking. If I want to hit 150 deg C, it says, what resistance should I be seeing at 150 deg C, if the base resistance was 0.85 ohms?

Well, Mr. Mod, look at the graph, pick 150 deg C on the X axis, and look up the resistance on the Y axis. By calculating the TCR and inputting it into the mod, we're giving Mr. Mod a way to build that graph from any starting resistance. As OF is explaining, it's relative to a specific starting resistance.

If the TCR value we got from the formula is accurate, and we input it into the mod, then on the next run in TC mode, our high temp TT that we reach should match the target temp we selected on the display.

And that's the only situation in which measured TT and selected target temp will match.

But no, I don't enjoy the tower of Pisa wobbly bobbly effect. I'm looking for stands too. Just saying, that if you take the water tool off the rig, it's pretty stable on the desk. I like the cork idea. Looking for a a mini-christmas tree stand or something to be the base. But someone's gonna have to drink that bottle to get me the cork, and it sure isn't me.

 

[insideoutman]

I'd recommend the Pico, and VTC Mini, then TC100W and Cuboid (dual battery versions of them) followed by the TC40. The first four will run TC mode on the 2.5 bases with an "M value" of 245 or so. The 40TC OTOH, is a VW only deal with the DC.

Regards,

OF

Thanks for the welcome

The only part I have a question about: do the TC mods besides the TC40, do the DC in TC? you didn't specifically state it and I've been searching for this answer!

I'll definitely second OF on the Pico. I have one & love it. Works well with the DT 2.5 & I frequently use it for nicotine as well. Currently has the Theorem by Wismec atop it. Possibly the best rebuildable atty I've found. Since you're a mech mod guy I'm gonna assume you already have a ton of 18650s & chargers laying around so that's another advantage to the pico.



Oh, I recently picked up a Crafty myself, pretty big fan of Storz & Bickel. Good stuff!

I already bought the TC40, which is fine, i think it's gonna do just fine for this trip, but I do see the advantages of the other mods. And like you said, I do have chargers, but I really get tired of changing 18650's TBH, so thanks for the rec' on the Tesla...

...and that rebuildable tank! Although, I'm not a tank guy. I assume you only use that for nic' though?

BUT, I do like the idea of a nice little reliable RTA, and finally getting a regulated mod that I use ( I used to have a few, still have a DNA30 (canna mod lol)... it would be a nice backup/ when I'm too lazy to clean my other ones, enough ramble :: ]]

edit: here is my final purchase list:
istick 40W
2.7 deep bowl
2.5 combo (deep and shallow) bowl pack
dab 7pc kit
DC Dry herb atty___

I really like how Matt has so many items in his store.. made ordering multiple items painless. Only thing I need yet is something to put the shatter in for portable use im kinda new to this stuff ...
Silicon jars? i prob should have got that silicon mat huh? lol


___Last thing I promise,
ReadyXWick anyone? ceramic fiber rope. nextel. It's what I use for my nicotine Atty's. Rinse with water, and dry burn and you're good to go, like new. Will I be taking one for the team?? In the name of Science, of course!

& in case you need to read up/more info:
http://www.3m.com/market/industrial/ceramics/materials/nextel.html
& this is the guy that bakes it (supposed to completely free it of chemicals by way of a specific kiln equipment/timing/technique - believe it or not):
http://www.rbasupplies.com/READYxWICK.html

 

[OF]

Thanks for the welcome

The only part I have a question about: do the TC mods besides the TC40, do the DC in TC? you didn't specifically state it and I've been searching for this answer!

You're welcome, of course. Hope you're soon 'in the club'. Soon you too will be using the secret hand sign........

Sorry to say, thus far no Mods have been found reliable with the TC. The DT is another matter, we have several to choose from. Some of those mods work better than others with DC but all I've tried (or heard about) have a tendency to 'slip into VW mode' without warning. Why, exactly, this is is also a mystery as of now.......the DC is a good use of the 40TC IMO, that's what I'm using on mine right now.......

The 40TC will work, but I think soon you'll 'want better'?

@Vape Donkey 650 The TT value isn't a target temp, it's the measured temp at the high temperature.

We disagree. I believe the only thing measured is resistance. The temperature displayed is based on the information you've fed it. Change that information and the 'measured temperature' changes for the same number of degrees as before? Exactly the same performance can be had with slightly different programming to input the rise in PPM with no mention of temperature or degrees at all.

Just like with your car curse control which 'measures' driveshaft revolutions not MPH or KmPH.

The displayed temperature is an estimate based on measured resistance change, not a measurement of the actual temperature as I see it. Not that it's all that important, but I believe that's a more accurate way to look at/describe it.

OF

 

[insideoutman]

The 40TC will work, but I think soon you'll 'want better'?

Thats fine, I mainly purchased the DC for a friend, so hearing that it at least works with the TC40 is at least a relief! Thanks all around

 

[OF]

Thats fine, I mainly purchased the DC for a friend, so hearing that it at least works with the TC40 is at least a relief! Thanks all around

Again, you're welcome. Very soon hopefully it'll be your turn helping the new guys? You friend should be happy......and grateful for your efforts......

Enjoy the trip, please let us know how it worked out?

OF