Speculation about how vapour clouds form

[hoptimum]

Your right I wasn't clear. But in general what I'm saying is true. EVEN the volcano takes longer to get a cloud then the crafty does. Once you do they are nice but there is just somehong about that slight amount of conduction that makes it a little stronger and more potent

The Lotus, Firefly, Vapor Genie, Flash Vape and many other convection vaporizers can easily produce dense clouds, though that's not what I'm after personally

 

[stickstones]

So your saying when it's hand broken there is space in the packed chamber which allows the bud to not get as dark?

I can't say without actually seeing how you packed it. My guess is you were doing it differently than I do for a different purpose. When I pack a whole nug it's because I want a taste festival. But ground herb can be pressed into a solid-like cake pretty easily, which helps conduction vapes to work well. Some nuggets are hard enough to not press together as well. Unless you had soft bud and mashed it in there pretty good, I think you had some small spaces that hindered the conduction process. If your nugget was firm, then it probably didn't touch the oven in the corners and some of the sides. But only you will know based on how you packed it.

for the size you can't get the same density in all convection unless your working almost twice as hard or taking a long time to get the load preheated

I think this quote is indicative of your problem. It exaggerates your point and ultimately ruins it. It doesn't take a long time to get the load preheated...just a quick puff to get the hot air in there and it's ready to go. Or you can take a nice long drag and have a taste-savoring hit first. And it doesn't take lungs of a swimmer to use a convection vape. You're overdoing it, just like when you said you had tried every portable vape but the MV. I think your point is accurate, but your application of it is over the top. It just doesn't make as huge of a difference as your posts say.

The Crafty is mostly convection, that's why they want you to pack it loosely. If it were even half conduction you would need to pack it more to get good results. The conduction in this vape is minimal and only helps the beginning of the session.

 

[luchiano]

Your right I wasn't clear. But in general what I'm saying is true. EVEN the volcano takes longer to get a cloud then the crafty does. Once you do they are nice but there is just somehong about that slight amount of conduction that makes it a little stronger and more potent

Its not the conduction doing it, its the fact that the vapor has more of a chance to condense and get cooler with the crafty. The vapor is being mixed with a lot of air, and traveling along the cooling chamber of the inhalation part. This gives big clouds. The reason you may feel it more then from the volcano is because of the short vapor path, which means you can get more into the lungs, whereas the volcano may get more air mixed with the vapor but,mthat depends on different things, not just the volcano.

To get big clouds all you have to do is have a lot of air that will cool down the vapor quickly. Once cooled down, the vapors cling to each other and become large. Also, once the atmospheric pressure lowers from a strong inhalation, the air expands, and this also expands the vapor making it look larger..

With a volcano, the vapor is going into a bag, and the vapor has less of a chance of condensing on to each other, due to the wide space in the bag, and the atmospheric pressure not being lower that much, if at all, but, it will still produce clouds because the vapor will cool down inside the bag as air is moving it around from the pump pushing the vapor, and air, around.

Allegedly. Peace.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

Do you think that there is such thing as pure convection vaporizer? Imo bowls and herb and screen get hot from heated air and do concuct heat . IME more heat denser clouds.. Try droping a bit of oil on an overheated nail and you will. I have to mention also that with my log vape i am getting better clouds from heated bowls than i get get from cold

 

[pakalolo]

Do you think that there is such thing as pure convection vaporizer? Imo bowls and herb and screen get hot from heated air and do concuct heat . IME more heat denser clouds.. Try droping a bit of oil on an overheated nail and you will. I have to mention also that with my log vape i am getting better clouds from heated bowls than i get get from cold

I don't think there's a device out there that moves the load far enough away from the heat source to avoid some radiated heat. Also, as sticks mentioned, inevitably the screen (if there is one) and whatever holds the load heats up and adds a degree of conduction. In some designs—the FV inverted for example—these effects are minimal, but they are still there.

 

[Delta3DStudios]

Having used both vapes that are primarily conduction and other vapes that are primarily convection, I found this thread a hilarious read. Thanks for a good read on a slow day in the office!

Personally, I've got an average set of lungs for a 30-year old, not an athlete, not a pro swimmer, never a tobacco smoker. I have no problem at all ripping huge clouds from my convection vapes without any more 'work' than required for my conduction vapes. (well actually my conduction based Indica vape requires excessive work on the lungs to obtain a huge lung busting cloudy rip)

Do you think that there is such thing as pure convection vaporizer? Imo bowls and herb and screen get hot from heated air and do concuct heat . IME more heat denser clouds.. Try droping a bit of oil on an overheated nail and you will. I have to mention also that with my log vape i am getting better clouds from heated bowls than i get get from cold

I seem to feel my Lotus vape is the closest I have to a pure convection vape. The Stainless steel bowl and screen help reduce the conductive heat (SS is a very poor conductor of heat, hence why it was chosen by MT for the Lotus WPA - keeps the bowl cool to prevent burning your fingers!). Moreover, a single scoop (0.005?) is just enough to cover most of the screen. The material rarely touches the bowl itself.

 

[421]

Theoretical question: 0.1g is placed in a conduction vape and 0.1g is placed in a convection vape. Which will produce more vapor? Or would they produce equal amounts of vapor? (All other factors excluded, they both work perfectly in terms of conduction and convection.)

 

[elmomuzz]

Can the firefly or minivap produce vapor like this?

 

[lwien]

I like chasing clouds as much as the next guy but for me, there is a tipping point where cloud production can go from being fun to being very wasteful as well as being very "obvious" and for an apartment dweller such as myself, being wasteful and being obvious is not a good thing.

 

[mitchgo61]

I don't think there's a device out there that moves the load far enough away from the heat source to avoid some radiated heat. Also, as sticks mentioned, inevitably the screen (if there is one) and whatever holds the load heats up and adds a degree of conduction. In some designs—the FV inverted for example—these effects are minimal, but they are still there.

Back to the V Tower. Pack an "elbow bowl" and the weed sits just below the edge of the top of the black end of the cyclone bowl. The heating element sits just below the black ring at the top of the device. There's about four inches between the heat source and the material.

The elbow joint gets a little hot, but not hot enough to do any substantive radiative or conductive cooking. Can this thing produce clouds, easily, every time, with almost no draw resistance and zero learning curve or technique? Oh my...yes it can. It's the closest thing to "bong like" of any vape I've used, conductive or convective.

Our oldest dog Chloe is a good four feet away, so she's not a factor whatsoever.

 

[Snappo]

Theoretical question: 0.1g is placed in a conduction vape and 0.1g is placed in a convection vape. Which will produce more vapor? Or would they produce equal amounts of vapor? (All other factors excluded, they both work perfectly in terms of conduction and convection.)

Theoretical, yes ...practical, no. IMO, too many variable factors exist that CANNOT be excluded given the present day state of vape technology. Even among convection, OR conduction, vapes exclusively is like apples to oranges. I suggest that we consider the plethora of anecdotal testimony regarding the subjective performance characteristics gleaned from each individual vape and the reported effects. Personally, when it comes to taste, I'm not that picky - I don't find popcorn objectionable; when it comes down to ultimate effect vis-a-vis efficiency, I become much more discerning. Theoretical thermal dynamic constructs can be predictive to a point in this field, IMO - but actual personal experience with these devices and their associated variables validate these questions for me best, empirically speaking.

 

[elmomuzz]

I like chasing clouds as much as the next guy but for me, there is a tipping point where cloud production can go from being fun to being very wasteful as well as being very "obvious" and for an apartment dweller such as myself, being wasteful and being obvious is not a good thing.

I'm showing it's maximum potential. You can use less material or less heat and take it down a notch if desired.

 

[pakalolo]

Back to the V Tower. Pack an "elbow bowl" and the weed sits just below the edge of the top of the black end of the cyclone bowl. The heating element sits just below the black ring at the top of the device. There's about four inches between the heat source and the material.

The elbow joint gets a little hot, but not hot enough to do any substantive radiative or conductive cooking. Can this thing produce clouds, easily, every time, with almost no draw resistance and zero learning curve or technique? Oh my...yes it can. It's the closest thing to "bong like" of any vape I've used, conductive or convective.

Our oldest dog Chloe is a good four feet away, so she's not a factor whatsoever.

That comes close, but it uses a metal screen which heats up as you pull and so does not eliminate conductive heat. I would also be interested how cooked the load gets sitting in the elbow for 15 minutes without a draw. My recollection is that there will be some browning indicating radiated heat, although it's been 3-4 years since I had mine. I never much liked elbow packs.

 

[stickstones]

Which will produce more vapor?

The convection vape will fill the room with vapor while the conduction vape will slowly wisp vapor above it.

Can the firefly or minivap produce vapor like this?

My minivap can!

 

[hoptimum]

Can the firefly or minivap produce vapor like this?

Sure, if you can adapt the FF to a bubbler I dont see why not.

 

[elmomuzz]

I'd love to see a video of either one producing comparable vapor.

 

[mitchgo61]

That comes close, but it uses a metal screen which heats up as you pull and so does not eliminate conductive heat. I would also be interested how cooked the load gets sitting in the elbow for 15 minutes without a draw. My recollection is that there will be some browning indicating radiated heat, although it's been 3-4 years since I had mine.

I have never noticed any. And btw several users tried this experiment with the FF...filled a bowl, used an entire battery charge without drawing, and none of us saw any browning, at all. The heating coil is pretty damn close to the floor of the bowl, after a full charge you wouldn't wanna stick your finger in the bowl...but none of that heat appears to cook material in any substantive or even noticeable way.

Surfaces are getting hot and some low levels of heat are being transferred but I'm not yet convinced, experientially anyway, that the kind of "conduction" we care about is occurring on these "primarily" convection devices. If no weed is cooked unless air is drawn over it, there's not enough conduction for me to worry about.

 

[lwien]

The FF may have a harder time replicating what was happening in that vid simply for the reason that it has a smaller bowl.

 

[hoptimum]

I'd love to see a video of either one producing comparable vapor.

Why wouldnt it? Running a FF through a bubbler would not be my first choice but if you can mod it with an adapter it should be fine that way. For me its not the perfect device for that purpose. I'd just as soon use an LSV. But any 7th floor vaporizer can easily whitewall a bubbler at least as well. Its not that difficult.

 

[lwien]

I have never noticed any. And btw several users tried this experiment with the FF...filled a bowl, used an entire battery charge without drawing, and none of us saw any browning, at all. The heating coil is pretty damn close to the floor of the bowl, after a full charge you wouldn't wanna stick your finger in the bowl...but none of that heat appears to cook material in any substantive or even noticeable way.

Yeah, same with my LSV. I can leave the bud in the wand attached to an inverted LSV and the bud is far enough away from the heater that absolutely no heat is being transferred to it. Hell, I can even stick my finger all the way into the glass heater cover with the LSV powered up to full vaping temps and it's barely warm.

For me, the concern with conduction is that it will constantly cook your herbs even when you are not inhaling. That, for me, is a deal breaker. I only want heat applied to my bud when I'm hitting it.

I would love to get the Mighty for the novelty of it but for the reason stated above, it would never become my daily driver, especially after the pics were posted up of bud that was just left in the bowl with the unit powered up without any inhalation taking place. The Mighty cooked that bud to a VERY dark brown which leads me to believe that there is a LOT more conduction going on in the S&B vapes than what is being portrayed.

 

[mitchgo61]

Why wouldnt it? Running a FF through a bubbler would not be my first choice but if you can mod it with an adapter it should be fine that way. For me its not the perfect device for that purpose. I'd just as soon use an LSV. But any 7th floor vaporizer can easily whitewall a bubbler at least as well. Its not that difficult.

It's really not that difficult to pull huge clouds with the FF, even without a water tool. My first eight or so hits on any FF bowl are plenty huge.

 

[stickstones]

SS is a very poor conductor of heat,

That doesn't sound right. The PD had a sizeable ss heat sink. We like ss because it doesn't off gas at our temps and is, for the most, part tasteless.

 

[Delta3DStudios]

That doesn't sound right. The PD had a sizeable ss heat sink. We like ss because it doesn't off gas at our temps and is, for the most, part tasteless.

I'm comparing SS to other metals which are more conductive of heat - such as aluminum and copper. There's a reason why CPU heatsinks are made from Copper/Aluminum and not Stainles

 

[Stu]

And btw several users tried this experiment with the FF...filled a bowl, used an entire battery charge without drawing, and none of us saw any browning, at all.

I did this experiment, too. I was pretty surprised tbh that there was no browning of my load at all. I expected a little bit since there's a hot coil millimeters below the bowl. I've also done this test with the Solo and the herb came out looking totally spent. The Solo (and the Crafty and several other battery operated portables) use preheating of the bowl as it's more energy efficient than straight convection. I won't call it conduction because I don't think it is, but the preheating does roast the goodies in varying degrees depending on the model IME.

 

[lwien]

.....but the preheating does roast the goodies in varying degrees depending on the model IME.

I wonder if this is what causes the ABV to come out a very reddish brown. The only vape that I had that produced an ABV of that color was my Ascent, which also roasted the goodies.