Obamacare

Your welcome. I would like to focus on how we can design a system that not only meets our needs, but one Congress would WANT to join, and not exempt itself from, and one we would not be forced to join but would instead give us options.

I'm not sure if its possible in the real world but I think the discussion can be had here, now, with all of us participating.

i think this is the wrong discussion. this is no longer a matter of what is the right thing to do to create a better health care system -- because now it's political. Might as well try to talk about the financial system or getting off oil -- not going to happen from the top ... too many vested interests, too many fucked up agendas. Where is John Galt when you need him?

Who is John Galt?

Hippie Dickie said:

i think this is the wrong discussion.

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ok, then what is the right one? I was merely pointing out the differences between government and corporations since they seem to be the only ones left who can actually afford to pay for healthcare these days, and therefore by default, will be part of the solution in one capacity or another. Why not philosophize about the potential roles of each and try to have a discussion about what a better healthcare system might look like. Isn't that what we all want? A better system? Or is it actually simply a matter of being able to compel people to do what you want?

well, as an analogy, when child was in middle school i had the honor/distinction of being president of PTA for a year -- a very enlightening experience, because the national PTA convention was held at a nearby convention center, so it was possible for me to attend. There were over a million people in PTA, and i learned from discussions with their representatives at the convention that NO one agrees on what "good education" means. Everybody agrees up to a point, and then there are a million points of light, no coherent beam.

in my simple mind, medicine is the same. we are all anecdotes, and the medical mindset of fitting patients to a gaussian curve (or pick a more appropriate statistical measure) seems kind of stoopid to me.

i appreciate dentists, surgeons, dermotologists, chiropractors, personal trainers -- the hands-on people. the rest of allopathic medicine seems kind of stoopid, too.

so i think my attitude is not useful for the discussion proposed -- but have at it if you think it can help.

I guess I came in the middle of a partisan discussion, I really was trying to help. I dislike BOTH sides equally, which may be an advantage in this case. But you are right HD, the discussion belongs in another thread.

My little sister can now have health care, and that's pretty good IMO

t-dub, you keep mentioning "forcing" as it applies to requiring everybody to participate in the new "system". I look at it differently. Any healthcare system needs all of us participating. We need the large pool to cover what needs to be done. We also need the large pool to cover the many young folks who are healthy and do not want coverage now as some day things may change, health wise for those folks.

Here is a real time story, happening right now in our extended family.

Single mother, mid 30s, 2 kids. No health insurance as she is 'young' and relatively healthy. She is also into herbs and poultices and all that stuff.
Goes swimming Thursday at the lake and pokes her foot on a stick. Worse the next day but thinks it will get better. Soaks foot, works Friday. Very bad Friday night. Her whole lower leg is hurting. No red streaks, little swelling but pain.
Ok, now she is at my clinic in Kellogg Idaho after we were told what was up and insisted she get to a doctor now, period. I will post later what is up as I do not yet know. The pain has moved above her knee now.
The point is she avoided going in for basically two days because she has no health insurance. She pays all her bills so was trying to avoid the big one and ignored her body signals.
WTF is this in the richest freest country in the world? Many third world countries do way better than this.

Please excuse me. I am not trying to flame in any way but I do want to say our system is not right, especially for the poorer among us. That sucks and we need to do something about it. We will not solve it here but we have seen why it is not solved Nationally with good solutions.
More later.

Man, lets hope it's not necrotising fasciitis. There was a recent news story of a girl who this exact same thing happened to. She cut her foot on a stick in a lake. Bad news..........

They just got home. That was my first glee, to see Audra in the van with Mike. They let her come home!

Cellutitus, an internal staph infection that can get very nasty. The small stick only poked her existing staph bacteria(we all have it) under the surface of her skin and then quickly healed over. A very tiny hole. A heavy dose of Antibiotic via a shot and round of some heavy duty pills should do it. The Doc knew right away what it was.
Very good news to this old guy and the entire family even though our schedule will be changing for a week or so. Audra is a real farm girl and has helped so much on Howling Hills.

It looks like this is a good story, only a few hundred bucks. Not like the guy who got a rattlesnake bite that cost $250,000. He had insurance.

The irony of this story is our youngest son got the same thing this week shortly after his 1000 pound old Bolens tractor fell on him as he was trying to load it improperly. He is doing fine.

Thank goodness it wasn't that flesh eating bacteria. They had to cut off that one girl's foot, leg, and BOTH hands. She got it from a scratch from a zip line ride . . .

Damn, that is messed up, and scary as hell!!

Rick, so glad she is home and ok!!

MY biggest gripe has been and always will be this.... i work 8-12 hours a day for a lousy paycheck loaded with money taken out for all sorts of crap. I have to pay my hard earned money so that people that are fully capable of getting job (i am not counting the legitimate disabled and the legitimate people that cannot work) but decide they are too good to work can receive healthcare for free. also.... i believe under this new plan.... every fence jumper that comes to this country illegally now is entitled to the same free health care too. so now more money comes out of my pocket to take care of people that should not even be here while i come home and have to decide what bills to pay so i can continue to put food on my table so that my kids can eat.

mmenzie said:

MY biggest gripe has been and always will be this.... i work 8-12 hours a day for a lousy paycheck loaded with money taken out for all sorts of crap. I have to pay my hard earned money so that people that are fully capable of getting job (i am not counting the legitimate disabled and the legitimate people that cannot work) but decide they are too good to work can receive healthcare for free. also.... i believe under this new plan.... every fence jumper that comes to this country illegally now is entitled to the same free health care too. so now more money comes out of my pocket to take care of people that should not even be here while i come home and have to decide what bills to pay so i can continue to put food on my table so that my kids can eat.

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Making everyone buy insurance and pay premiums is one of the mandates that was discussed here. (part of the ACA) If they don't buy insurance, they are fined. So, explain to me how that is free?

Vicki said:

Making everyone buy insurance and pay premiums is one of the mandates that was discussed here. (part of the ACA) If they don't buy insurance, they are fined. So, explain to me how that is free?

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They're also expanding medicaid. How far is yet to be determined, as the states themselves will have the choice to put up some extra money, or opt out altogether. Right now, medicaid is is only for people that basically don't have the ability to earn money.

mmenzie said:

MY biggest gripe has been and always will be this.... i work 8-12 hours a day for a lousy paycheck loaded with money taken out for all sorts of crap. I have to pay my hard earned money so that people that are fully capable of getting job (i am not counting the legitimate disabled and the legitimate people that cannot work) but decide they are too good to work can receive healthcare for free. also.... i believe under this new plan.... every fence jumper that comes to this country illegally now is entitled to the same free health care too. so now more money comes out of my pocket to take care of people that should not even be here while i come home and have to decide what bills to pay so i can continue to put food on my table so that my kids can eat.

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When you consider the TRILLIONS of tax dollars that were spent on wars that should never have been fought in the first place, what ever tax dollars that are used to provide healthcare to illegal aliens is much smaller by comparison. Maybe your anger should be placed there instead, eh?

lwien said:

When you consider the TRILLIONS of tax dollars that were spent on wars that should never have been fought in the first place, what ever tax dollars that are used to provide healthcare to illegal aliens is minuscule by comparison. Maybe your anger should be placed there instead, eh?

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you are comparing apples to oranges my friend. comparing using money to support our troops, the troops that protect our freedoms and way of life, the troops that put their lives on the line everyday so that you and I have a place to air our gripes without worrying about prosecution, comparing that to people who come across the border illegally, create a bigger welfare system, and then cheat it causing unnecessary tax dollars to be created to fight welfare fraud..... is no way a good comparison. Sure i agree some of the wars lately are not just and should not be fought, but those are our people fighting and dying and they should be supported no matter what the reason. there is NO good reason to support illegal aliens, they are here illegally. if they want to come to america... great.. i am all for it!!! america is made up of all sorts of different cultures and peoples and always have been, BUT they should do it the legal way.

Who in the hell said ANYTHING about not supporting our troops. I am a VET. I spent 4 years serving my country and I would NEVER, EVER suggest such a thing as not supporting them. Of course we should support our troops and our tax dollars SHOULD be spent in doing so. Don't wave your freedom flag at me, 'cause I've carried that flag.

What I AM saying is that there have been some recent wars where our troops shouldn't have been sent over there in the first place and those fuck-ups cost us a LOT LOT more than the dollars we pay in covering the health care of illegal aliens.

It's not comparing apples and oranges at all. You're complaining about how your tax dollars are being spent and all I'm suggesting is that there are other things that our tax dollars are going to that cost us a helluva lot more.

I am glad that i supported you and agree the troops should be supported no matter the reason and sure the last few wars should not be fought and cost us alot of money. but i will never agree that spending millions of dollars on providing healthcare to illegal aliens or to perfectly able citizens who are just too lazy to get a job is a good thing or is less of a big deal than spending money on wrongly fought wars.

mmenzie said:

MY biggest gripe has been and always will be this.... i work 8-12 hours a day for a lousy paycheck loaded with money taken out for all sorts of crap. I have to pay my hard earned money so that people that are fully capable of getting job (i am not counting the legitimate disabled and the legitimate people that cannot work) but decide they are too good to work can receive healthcare for free. also.... i believe under this new plan.... every fence jumper that comes to this country illegally now is entitled to the same free health care too. so now more money comes out of my pocket to take care of people that should not even be here while i come home and have to decide what bills to pay so i can continue to put food on my table so that my kids can eat.

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Who do you think is paying for the treatment of those uninsured "fence jumpers" when they go to the emergency room? If they are uninsured somebody still has to pay, because they most likely won't be refused treatment. Or maybe you are one of those people that believes life is only precious in the womb. All human life is precious and healthcare is not a privilege, it's a basic human right. Why is it so damn hard for people to understand that? And a lot of these same people having a fit about this issue will swear up and down that they are religious, God fearing blah blah blah. Well I'm a proud misotheist and even I have a respect for human life (a respect that was increased by multiple deployments to Iraq).

I'm not big on politics but currently our health care system sucks big time. NOBODY should have to pay for a hospital visit. I think this is a step in the right direction. A lot of ignorance has been spread around ever since 2008...