My secret to THC E-Cig PG-Liquid... Potent, Effective, Cheap, Easy!!!

Gazaam · Feb 22, 2018

You folks using PG, PEG or any other related chemical product, including Wax Liquifier, are playing with your lives. I have a strong background in chemistry and pathology and several advanced degrees in these fields, and I can tell you that these products are NOT SAFE when used in eCig types of vaporizers.

While it is true that PG is considered GRAS (Generally Regarded As Safe) when used in various products including asthma puffers, it is not subjected to high temperatures in any of these applications. When PG hits a hot vaping coil, it is raised to a high enough temperature to cause it to break apart into several smaller molecules. Two of those molecules are carcinogenic. Take a look at this:

https://chemistry.stackexchange.com...form-formaldehyde-acetaldehyde-when-vaporized

I have seen a lot of posts here trying to minimize the hazards of PG, some claiming that there is not proof that it's products of combustion are carcinogenic. To these posters I say "GET REAL". Unless you have sufficient background in chemistry, you are not qualified to make statements like this. It appears that, in your desire to seek the rewards of cannabis vaping, you have allowed your common sense to become sullied.

I use The Mighty manufactured by Storz and Bickel. This vaporizer, and others like it, used a controlled heating system that (at temps below 220 deg. C) does not allow the eliquid to get hot enough for the chemical reaction to take place. But of course, with a vaporizer like that, there is no need to dilute your concentrates with PG anyway

seaofgreens · Feb 22, 2018

Man you're fairly late to this party:
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/pg-update-toxic.24198/

In any case... it has been discussed quite a bit and technology has been moving along. Currently folks are looking for ways to run thicker oils in tanks and adding very small amounts of terpenes to create proper wicking consistency. Ideally a thinner rosin or co2 oil is best at the moment imo.

Folks are just messing around looking for ways to make ejuice tanks work for them. No harm.

Gazaam · Feb 22, 2018

Actually, if you look at that thread, you will see that I posted a similar statement there. I have to respectfully disagree with your statement: "No harm." When PG breaks down under high heat, it releases two of the same carcinogens in cigarette smoke. So where does "no harm" come from? Are you saying that because they have not contracted lung cancer yet, that there is no risk that they will later on? Quite naive. In my post in the thread you cite, I explained that it only takes a single random cell mutation to start a cancerous tumor. Most tumors are "monoclonal" which means that all the cells in the tumor are genetically identical. This means that the whole tumor started from a single mutated cell.

So IMHO "no harm" is a delusional fallacy.

It is good that people are experimenting with the use of other thinning agents like terpenes. However, because cannabis is illegal in most of the world, there has not been any research done on the products of combustion of terpenes, or of the other molecules in a cannabis concentrate. If I have missed something, please provide any references you have and I will be only too happy to read and comment on them.

In the meantime, I stand by my original statement that the only safe way to vape is using a controlled heat source that does not elevate the concentrate about 220 deg. C. Frankly, I do not understand why everyone wants to adapt an ejuice tank anyway when there are safe, commercially available alternatives that are designed specifically for vaping herbs and concentrates. Is saving a hundred bucks or so really worth the risk?

seaofgreens · Feb 22, 2018

I meant that it is fine people are trying to figure out how to make concentrates thin enough for tanks in a safe manner... Do not take that I said "no harm," into some unrelated tangent I didn't reference. Thank you.

Gazaam · Feb 22, 2018

Sure, that's fine. As long these people realize that if they are inhaling vapor from "experimental" setups, there is in fact a substantial risk of harm.

seaofgreens · Feb 22, 2018

I honestly agree with you that it is better to not bother if circumstance permits. I myself prefer an e-nail and just bring a portable herb device when out. I would take a vandy vape ribbon or DV3 on a mod box over a tank setup in most situations as well.

But I believe many people are looking for ways to hide consumption much more effectively, as you can blend the smell in with some flavoring and just be vaping anywhere like it's some everyday e-cig. There is awareness that these chemicals release toxins, and that is weighed against being concealable in most situations and more conservative of concentrates if dilution is your thing.

I appreciate you warning folks though, not everyone is aware it is dangerous, so it is good to have a reminder sometimes.

Pressisbest · Feb 23, 2018

Gazaam said:
You folks using PG, PEG or any other related chemical product, including Wax Liquifier, are playing with your lives...

I applaud your comments. I'm not a chemist, but I have also tried to educate readers on this forum and others to the inherent dangers of vaping these additives. Mostly, it seems to fall on deaf ears and I do not know why.

"I'm not sick now so what's the big deal" seems to be the response.

We've been tricked into believing cannabis is completely safe... No one has died from using it in thousands of years, so they claim. Evidence is now starting to come to light that "completely safe" may not totally be the case. It's just a matter of time before more is fully known.

I'm a firm believer in using cannabis for medicinal purposes and I'm not opposed to someone have a good time. I do find fault with these marketers of questionable and unsafe additives. These companies are not your friends.

DTLA · Mar 21, 2018

Eh hem..

I make no health claims. I will say that people, like me, who use WL are primarily looking for discretion. Additionally, the possibility of vaping your concentrate from a giant DTL, face melting tank...is joyous

Brothers & Sisters, I have found the solution(s) to reliably running Wax Liquidizer!

I'll have an article on their site about it in early April

Then I will continue with a blog that will keep following the tech for vaping our stuff!!!

DTLA · Mar 21, 2018

bagelbanger said:
Made another batch of shatter + WL with pretty good results. Using 1g - 2ml with a shot glass and water bath. Kept temp lower then 160* F. Made a batch w some strawberry WL previously and it tasted delicious but tried it with a notch coil. Kinda liked it but found it to chug juice and it started to sputter once the tank of juice started to get low on juice. Had a stoner moment and didn't realize the first coil I used in the cubis mini was a 1.5 clapton. Using this again on the new batch as it seems to be a bit more conservative w juice. I may play around again with the notch coil and see if I can get it to work better as the taste seemed pleasant although that could have just been the strawberry WL overpowering. Curious to hear from others how different coils and resistance effect taste. I have a few extra notch coils if anybody is interested in experimenting. Just throw me a few bucks to cover US shipping via Pp. good stuff.

Anybody try the mint WL??

Curious for super stealth missions.

Any new news on the coils?

bagelbanger · Mar 24, 2018

DTLA said:
Any new news on the coils?

Nah, kinda gave up testing as they would eventually leak or clog or just get messy. Went through a bunch of tanks and coils before calling it quits and moving to a LAYG Sai. First few hits were great off the juice but then eventually it would always end up burnt. I tried a vape710 cart that worked well with WL until it leaked into a jacket pocket. Not too nice to clean up but I kinda figured it wasn’t the right mix for the cart.
Would try it again if there was a sure shot way of success.

What have you been working on??

DTLA · Mar 24, 2018

bagelbanger said:
Nah, kinda gave up testing as they would eventually leak or clog or just get messy. Went through a bunch of tanks and coils before calling it quits and moving to a LAYG Sai. First few hits were great off the juice but then eventually it would always end up burnt. I tried a vape710 cart that worked well with WL until it leaked into a jacket pocket. Not too nice to clean up but I kinda figured it wasn’t the right mix for the cart.
Would try it again if there was a sure shot way of success.

What have you been working on??

For starters get the Aspire Skystar kit. Set between 30-37W on (soft). My sweet spot is 35.5 (ratio 1g shatter/3ml WL). Ppplllenty strong enough!

There will be a blog on WL website in April which will focus on the best new vape tech for WL.

I got some ideas

Research is in full swing!

But looove hearing/testing others too!

Dr. Vapenstein · Mar 31, 2018

caro-line said:
Hello,
I'm just running out of EJ, so its time for something new.
I was thinking about Vapeur Extract blueberry flavor.
I see it coitains VG, which I was told makes E-Juice separating. Hmm?
Can I trust this company and this blueberry flavor? EJ has horrible after-taste, which I always cover up by lots of concentrate flavor. Will it not seperate after even few months or something like that?
Looking forward to hearing from you guys!

Cheers!

Try Shatter Sauce or the brand "WAX"...I prefer the Lemon Haze mixed half/half with original no flavor at a 2 ml to 1 gr ratio or stronger....foolproof and tasty

florduh · Apr 19, 2018

Gazaam said:
You folks using PG, PEG or any other related chemical product, including Wax Liquifier, are playing with your lives. I have a strong background in chemistry and pathology and several advanced degrees in these fields, and I can tell you that these products are NOT SAFE when used in eCig types of vaporizers.

While it is true that PG is considered GRAS (Generally Regarded As Safe) when used in various products including asthma puffers, it is not subjected to high temperatures in any of these applications. When PG hits a hot vaping coil, it is raised to a high enough temperature to cause it to break apart into several smaller molecules. Two of those molecules are carcinogenic. Take a look at this:

https://chemistry.stackexchange.com...form-formaldehyde-acetaldehyde-when-vaporized

I have seen a lot of posts here trying to minimize the hazards of PG, some claiming that there is not proof that it's products of combustion are carcinogenic. To these posters I say "GET REAL". Unless you have sufficient background in chemistry, you are not qualified to make statements like this. It appears that, in your desire to seek the rewards of cannabis vaping, you have allowed your common sense to become sullied.

I use The Mighty manufactured by Storz and Bickel. This vaporizer, and others like it, used a controlled heating system that (at temps below 220 deg. C) does not allow the eliquid to get hot enough for the chemical reaction to take place. But of course, with a vaporizer like that, there is no need to dilute your concentrates with PG anyway

If you are using a temp controlled device, you wouldn't need to go above 446 degrees Fahrenheit. Is there any evidence PG or PEG is degrading to formaldehyde at 360-400 degrees?

MadDabber89 · Apr 24, 2018

Gazaam said:
You folks using PG, PEG or any other related chemical product, including Wax Liquifier, are playing with your lives. I have a strong background in chemistry and pathology and several advanced degrees in these fields, and I can tell you that these products are NOT SAFE when used in eCig types of vaporizers.

While it is true that PG is considered GRAS (Generally Regarded As Safe) when used in various products including asthma puffers, it is not subjected to high temperatures in any of these applications. When PG hits a hot vaping coil, it is raised to a high enough temperature to cause it to break apart into several smaller molecules. Two of those molecules are carcinogenic. Take a look at this:

https://chemistry.stackexchange.com...form-formaldehyde-acetaldehyde-when-vaporized

I have seen a lot of posts here trying to minimize the hazards of PG, some claiming that there is not proof that it's products of combustion are carcinogenic. To these posters I say "GET REAL". Unless you have sufficient background in chemistry, you are not qualified to make statements like this. It appears that, in your desire to seek the rewards of cannabis vaping, you have allowed your common sense to become sullied.

I use The Mighty manufactured by Storz and Bickel. This vaporizer, and others like it, used a controlled heating system that (at temps below 220 deg. C) does not allow the eliquid to get hot enough for the chemical reaction to take place. But of course, with a vaporizer like that, there is no need to dilute your concentrates with PG anyway

Very great points. Intellectual stimulation. Haha I regret making my purchase of wax Liquidizer yesterday after reading your comment. I live in Oregon and there is a big "concentrate vape pen craze" happening here.. The dispensaries make great money selling 1ml carts for 70 bucks to everybody and their mom haha but I like so many blindly smoked the stuff for years and I like it so much I wanted to save money and start filling my own so yesterday I ordered wax Liquidizer and CCell m210 1ml cartridges. They are made with the glass tanker instead of plastic and have a ceramic mouthpiece and they have a ceramic atomizer instead of the faulty wick system so many cartridge companies use.. Also got the 550 mah CCell Palm battery. Very great engineering behind both products. I got my stuff from CannaBrand solutions out of Washington. They have a website. You seem smart and I was wondering if you could tell me if these CCell Palm batteries will burn too hot with the wax Liquidizer? I really don't want to smoke formaldehyde if that's what pg reallyconverts to at certain temps..I just want to know the safest and best way to make and fill cartridges is in your mind is because I want to vape safely and I also share my cartridges with friends and family and want them to vape safely also.

bagelbanger said:
Nah, kinda gave up testing as they would eventually leak or clog or just get messy. Went through a bunch of tanks and coils before calling it quits and moving to a LAYG Sai. First few hits were great off the juice but then eventually it would always end up burnt. I tried a vape710 cart that worked well with WL until it leaked into a jacket pocket. Not too nice to clean up but I kinda figured it wasn’t the right mix for the cart.
Would try it again if there was a sure shot way of success.

What have you been working on??

I just purchased 1ml glass CCell cartridges with the CCell Palm battery. and wax Liquidizer. Going to do a 1:1 ,1:1.5, and 1:2 ratio with super quality girl scout cookies concentrate . Will post results. Hopefully no leaks. CCell has great reviews with wax Liquidizer I seen on YouTube so I figured I'd give it a shot.

florduh · Apr 24, 2018

MadDabber89 said:
Very great points. Intellectual stimulation. Haha I regret making my purchase of wax Liquidizer yesterday after reading your comment.

If you like using Wax Liquidizer, I don't think there's any real evidence currently that shows it is dangerous in real world use situations. The study that claims it generates toxic carbonyls is seriously flawed, and authored by a "Naturopath" with financial ties to a company that produces MCT oil based vapes. His study seems to have been designed to show MCT oil is the safest oil diluting agent (it's not). We have been discussing this here.

I'd say if you like using Wax Liquidizer, there is no compelling evidence that says it is dangerous. Though I would recommend using a Temp Control device.

Pharcyide · Apr 27, 2018

If there are people concerned about PEG, PG, or VG, would it be better to use straight terpenes? Ive been using organic terps to dilute my hard concentrate so I can vape it and found that the terps work very well. I like using them since they're already found in cannabis and it's the same method a lot of extractors will use when they make distillate and do a terpene addback to add in some flavor. Plus some of the strain specific terp profiles i've tried added some great flavor!

florduh · Apr 27, 2018

Pharcyide said:
If there are people concerned about PEG, PG, or VG, would it be better to use straight terpenes? Ive been using organic terps to dilute my hard concentrate so I can vape it and found that the terps work very well. I like using them since they're already found in cannabis and it's the same method a lot of extractors will use when they make distillate and do a terpene addback to add in some flavor. Plus some of the strain specific terp profiles i've tried added some great flavor!

My issue is, there is no evidence that vaping terpenes is any safer than PEG. They are potent solvents, so it's completely possible they are less safe. I think using a small amount of exogenous terps is likely safe, but there's no actual evidence to back that up. There's also no compelling evidence that vaping PEG is actually dangerous using modern e-cig equipment.

Pharcyide · May 1, 2018

florduh said:
My issue is, there is no evidence that vaping terpenes is any safer than PEG. They are potent solvents, so it's completely possible they are less safe. I think using a small amount of exogenous terps is likely safe, but there's no actual evidence to back that up. There's also no compelling evidence that vaping PEG is actually dangerous using modern e-cig equipment.

Definitely something to be concerned about. Until some long term tests are done it's tough to say if vaping terpenes over time will have a negative impact on the body. My main reason for going with organic terpenes was they are already found in cannabis. I figured if it's natural and already found in the plant it might be more safe to smoke than PEG/PG/VG but you have a good point about no evidence on it being safer.

Smokinjoe · Jun 18, 2019

Hello all

New to this but I have made 4 batches so far

Is anyone using tiny amounts of vg with peg 400 & terps??

I don’t want to just use terps cuz of the stong strand taste, u can’t just use vg and peg 400 is horrible for u??

I was thinking

1g concentrate

2-5 drops Terp

3-6 drops peg 400

1-2 drops of vg

I want something strong but not chemical tasting.

Is this just a waste of time ??

Just stick to terps and wax liquidizer & peg 400...???

I want a way to dilute down slightly but not to chemically??

I have also read Mct C8 would be one of the best oils to dilute down with??

Any advice appreciated

Smokinjoe · Jun 20, 2019

Smokinjoe said:
Hello all

New to this but I have made 4 batches so far

Is anyone using tiny amounts of vg with peg 400 & terps??

I don’t want to just use terps cuz of the stong strand taste, u can’t just use vg and peg 400 is horrible for u??

I was thinking

1g concentrate

2-5 drops Terp

3-6 drops peg 400

1-2 drops of vg

I want something strong but not chemical tasting.

Is this just a waste of time ??

Just stick to terps and wax liquidizer & peg 400...???

I want a way to dilute down slightly but not to chemically??

I have also read Mct C8 would be one of the best oils to dilute down with??

Any advice appreciated

N e body...???

Jong · Jun 27, 2021

hello everybody, This thread helps us alot with different techniques, success and failures in every experiments. I've been reading this thread for 2 weeks reading back and forth and been learning alot. Thanks to everybody who shares their experiences.

I'm also in a quest of making a quality batch of e-juice compatible with cotton wicked pods perfect for 50/50 pg/vg I've done alot of procedure but failed to get good results. I've done herbs infusion for 4 hours to PG/VG and I dont like the smell and taste of the finish product and after a week I noticed separation, decarbed concentrates infused for 30 minutes in 150F and in just overnight separation happens and I see a ring of oil in the top of the juice so what I did was get materials and equipments needed for easier and get the result I wanted. this week my hotplate stirrer will arrive, I have rosin press and micron bags, syringe filters, PG flavorings VG for thickener PEG400, I bought 250ML of PEG400 as I read here its the best solution for suspending THC oil and will elimanate separation and will stay mixed, I just dont want to spend a fortune again for a crappy result because herbs in my location is $15 per G and still prohibited.

I will list down my materials and procedure if something is wrong or to be corrected I am open for changes.

Materials and Procedures:
7G herbs in 90 micron bags pressed in 180F for 3 mins
approx 1G rosin yield
Decarb in beaker and hotplate at 250F for 45 mins. or until bubbles stops
Infused in 1ML PEG400 at 150F for 30 mins with stir bar for better mixture
Syringe filtering to remove fats lipids and plant materials
Add PG flavoring for masking out the smell
Add VG for thickener until I get the consistency that is okay for pod system with no leaks (I'm aware it will get cloudy but it's okay as long as no separation will happen)

As you notice I don't have the exact volume in PG and VG because that's what I'm worried about. I'm aftering a finish product that will stretch out the 1G concentrate to 20ML vape juice because we are not heavy smoker and it's only for whole day vaping managing pain and before sleeping. I wanted the result to be mild to strong high with the fruity flavor that also my wife wants to be stealthy as possible. I cant get any liquidizer because our customs will just confiscate the parcel, I did it twice with wax liquidizer and shatter batter but unfortunately both got confiscated. so I will just use PEG400 instead and experiment flavors and consistencies.

Does anyone here can help me, recommendations and suggestions will be highly appreciated.

florduh · Jun 27, 2021

Jong said:
hello everybody, This thread helps us alot with different techniques, success and failures in every experiments. I've been reading this thread for 2 weeks reading back and forth and been learning alot. Thanks to everybody who shares their experiences.

I'm also in a quest of making a quality batch of e-juice compatible with cotton wicked pods perfect for 50/50 pg/vg I've done alot of procedure but failed to get good results. I've done herbs infusion for 4 hours to PG/VG and I dont like the smell and taste of the finish product and after a week I noticed separation, decarbed concentrates infused for 30 minutes in 150F and in just overnight separation happens and I see a ring of oil in the top of the juice so what I did was get materials and equipments needed for easier and get the result I wanted. this week my hotplate stirrer will arrive, I have rosin press and micron bags, syringe filters, PG flavorings VG for thickener PEG400, I bought 250ML of PEG400 as I read here its the best solution for suspending THC oil and will elimanate separation and will stay mixed, I just dont want to spend a fortune again for a crappy result because herbs in my location is $15 per G and still prohibited.

I will list down my materials and procedure if something is wrong or to be corrected I am open for changes.

Materials and Procedures:
7G herbs in 90 micron bags pressed in 180F for 3 mins
approx 1G rosin yield
Decarb in beaker and hotplate at 250F for 45 mins. or until bubbles stops
Infused in 1ML PEG400 at 150F for 30 mins with stir bar for better mixture
Syringe filtering to remove fats lipids and plant materials
Add PG flavoring for masking out the smell
Add VG for thickener until I get the consistency that is okay for pod system with no leaks (I'm aware it will get cloudy but it's okay as long as no separation will happen)

As you notice I don't have the exact volume in PG and VG because that's what I'm worried about. I'm aftering a finish product that will stretch out the 1G concentrate to 20ML vape juice because we are not heavy smoker and it's only for whole day vaping managing pain and before sleeping. I wanted the result to be mild to strong high with the fruity flavor that also my wife wants to be stealthy as possible. I cant get any liquidizer because our customs will just confiscate the parcel, I did it twice with wax liquidizer and shatter batter but unfortunately both got confiscated. so I will just use PEG400 instead and experiment flavors and consistencies.

Does anyone here can help me, recommendations and suggestions will be highly appreciated.

I've long moved on from attempting anything like this so I can't give specific recommendations for using PEG.

But, since you've moved to the "dark side" of adding non canna derived ingredients to your mix, I'll throw a suggestion out there. The best non-terpene liquidizer I found was a form of MCT called C6. Basically a short-ish chain triglyceride. You wouldn't need to add nearly as much as you do with PEG. And it's tasteless. PEG always had a distinct taste for me.

Beyond that, there are a few more advantages. While you are adding something not found in cannabis to your oil, it's just a short fatty acid. I'm almost certainly inhaling more lipids vaping herb than I would be using this method for carts. There's really nothing akin to PEG in cannabis. You can also possibly get away without needing to totally decarb your rosin, saving more terps.

If you're happy with your process, forget I said anything. But it might be worth looking into. They might sell C6 only MCT oil at a local shop.

Jong · Jul 2, 2021

florduh said:
I've long moved on from attempting anything like this so I can't give specific recommendations for using PEG.

But, since you've moved to the "dark side" of adding non canna derived ingredients to your mix, I'll throw a suggestion out there. The best non-terpene liquidizer I found was a form of MCT called C6. Basically a short-ish chain triglyceride. You wouldn't need to add nearly as much as you do with PEG. And it's tasteless. PEG always had a distinct taste for me.

Beyond that, there are a few more advantages. While you are adding something not found in cannabis to your oil, it's just a short fatty acid. I'm almost certainly inhaling more lipids vaping herb than I would be using this method for carts. There's really nothing akin to PEG in cannabis. You can also possibly get away without needing to totally decarb your rosin, saving more terps.

If you're happy with your process, forget I said anything. But it might be worth looking into. They might sell C6 only MCT oil at a local shop.

Thanks for the suggestion brother.. Is MCT C6 will mix perfect and long time with PG flavouring?

My secret to THC E-Cig PG-Liquid... Potent, Effective, Cheap, Easy!!!

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