On Patents and Induction Heaters

[kel]

DV has the whole induction heater patent?

We will only ever know this IF they take legal action against another IH designer/builder - if the outcome is in DV favour then, for the specific application of heating Dynavap TEDs - yes!

Disgusting isn't it - it's not even that novel, in fact, from what little I know of patents this looks extremely trollish and barely worth the paper it's written on or the 1s and 0s used to store it digitally. Imagine all the innovation and development stifled, unavailable and only having ONE choice of IH. Nasty. I sincerely hope this never happens and other manufacturers and designers can continue with the innovation unhindered.

 

[YLLVAPE OFFICAL]

We will only ever know this IF they take legal action against another IH designer/builder - if the outcome is in DV favour then, for the specific application of heating Dynavap TEDs - yes!

Disgusting isn't it - it's not even that novel, in fact, from what little I know of patents this looks extremely trollish and barely worth the paper it's written on or the 1s and 0s used to store it digitally. Imagine all the innovation and development stifled, unavailable and only having ONE choice of IH. Nasty. I sincerely hope this never happens and other manufacturers and designers can continue with the innovation unhindered.

If they do have patent on this tech, that would waste our team 2 year develpment. Hope its okay for other designer or builders to continue. I was only informed by DV that i can not use Dynavap and VapCap trademarks, i guess vapingFans might get the information from them as well.

 

[kel]

If they do have patent on this tech, that would waste our team 2 year develpment. Hope its okay for other designer or builders to continue. I was only informed by DV that i can not use Dynavap and VapCap trademarks, i guess vapingFans might get the information from them as well.

Honestly, I really wouldn't worry about it!

Your position is a perfect illustration of why patents are such a terrible scourge. I am both saddened and glad that this discussion has come up, patents are a throwback and are extensively abused, look up 'patent trolls' or 'why patents are a bad idea' and have a read.

If DV ever did bring about a legal case against anyone for this, I think the damage they would cause to themselves would far outweigh any advantage they might gain from an outcome in their favour, again look up why patents are a waste of time and how they nearly never work in the favour of the 'little guys' who try to use them. They only exist in this day and age as a mechanism for large corporations to kill innovation and smaller companies. That is their purpose.

If you want to totally ruin your day, look up how patents are abused to cause suffering for millions of people by the pharmaceutical industry.

 

[YLLVAPE OFFICAL]

Honestly, I really wouldn't worry about it!

Your position is a perfect illustration of why patents are such a terrible scourge. I am both saddened and glad that this discussion has come up, patents are a throwback and are extensively abused, look up 'patent trolls' or 'why patents are a bad idea' and have a read.

If DV ever did bring about a legal case against anyone for this, I think the damage they would cause to themselves would far outweigh any advantage they might gain from an outcome in their favour, again look up why patents are a waste of time and how they nearly never work in the favour of the 'little guys' who try to use them. They only exist in this day and age as a mechanism for large corporations to kill innovation and smaller companies. That is their purpose.

If you want to totally ruin your day, look up how patents are abused to cause suffering for millions of people by the pharmaceutical industry.

You right！

 

[TommyDee]

@Yllvape Induction Heater - You need to look at the approval where claims are either accepted or denied. DV told you what was not covered by the application. There is also a clause that forces likeness which makes DV's application for a 'cup' but the other claims can be applied to any similar function, such as the magnetic reed switch. If you want to discuss further, PM me. This is a hostile discussion and some things simply cannot be outed here.

 

[scy123]

I think the reaction was totally appropriate for trying to discredit a company for doing nothing wrong.

One thing I hate the most is people with no proper knowledge trying to discredit me online and making me waist my time defending myself, or even worst making me not able to defend myself at all.

Which is why my reaction is always the same.

 

[kel]

This is a hostile discussion

Yeah I guess so, but from my perspective both defensive against an outright vicious attack against a company that has done nothing wrong and also in a philosophical sense.

I mean no one any actual harm or anything, no matter how annoyed I am by some of the assertions that have been made.

I would like to hope that we can profoundly disagree and still be civil

For the record, in case it's not clear already, I despise patents as they are legalised bullying, nothing more. Theoretically they protect invention, but in reality they do not protect normal people and their inventions, they give jobs to lawyers, protect one person who just happened to create some paperwork first and destroy the lives of many others for the sake of that one person, in the odd cases that actually stand. It's the continuation of the feudal system as technocratic neo-feudalism! It's utterly abhorrent!

Example - you lock yourself away in a room for 5 years, you pour all your life savings into a project, every waking hour you toil over the same problems over and over again until EUREKA!! You finally solve them and succeed in producing a product that is your creation, no one else did the work, you did it... just you... you turn around, and present your product to the world... proud and happy with the fruits of your labour...

... only to find out that someone else has done the same thing and patented it and you are now facing total ruin and legal battles unable to reap the benefits of your labour.

-- for what crime exactly?

On which moral plane is this okay?

It does not exist as a moral stance in any world I am aware of other than in an extreme criminal capitalist bullying horror show nightmare abuse fest!

It needs to be stopped.

 

[Planck]

Blue Jean Cables vs Monster Cables.
Patent Bullies Met Their Match

 

[kel]

That's the way to do it... what a f*cking HERO










The thing about pie is, there's always more pie!

 

[Farid]

Example - you lock yourself away in a room for 5 years, you pour all your life savings into a project, every waking hour you toil over the same problems over and over again until EUREKA!! You finally solve them and succeed in producing a product that is your creation, no one else did the work, you did it... just you... you turn around, and present your product to the world... proud and happy with the fruits of your labour...

... only to find out that someone else has done the same thing and patented it and you are now facing total ruin and legal battles unable to reap the benefits of your labour.

As a counter example consider that same person who locked themselves away for 5 years and invested all their money in their invention. Much of this money went into research, prototyping, testing to come up with the final design. Then when they launch their product it is quickly copied by a larger company with the means to rapidly manufacture and distribute it, and who didn't have to spend any money for R&D, only spending a small fraction on reverse engineering it.

I agree with you about patents on pharmaceuticals being a crime. But this industry is miniscule in comparison, and there is already a huge problem with clones from China.

I don't know enough to have an opinion on this specific example, but I do think patents serve a purpose in general for protection from 1:1 clones.

 

[scy123]

I like the idea that patents can protect your work you spent so much time and money developing, but patenting a switch for use in a specific application is too much.

It's like patenting led lighting when used on an induction heater.

 

[Vasgas]

I'd personally be cool with community members borrowing tech and ideas from around, and presenting us with more choices. These are the stuff tested by real canna consumers/ connoisseurs and often certified as fire by the community. We're seeing a lot of that with refc, idb, oldhead, madsense and many others I'm missing. I'm happy to see none of them get limited by fucking patents.I'd be royally pissed if I could not get a Highlighter DIY kit for 70 or an IDB Halo for 200++ just cos some asshole wanted to sue lol.

I'm not a Dynavap or Storz and Bickel fan. Actually very far from it. I dislike both companies for the same reasons. However, I'll not buy their 1:1 clones no matter the price. No matter how cheap they are, I reminded that these aren't made by real canna users. If they don't mind ripping off designs and brands they don't even understand, how interested can they be, to make me a reasonably safe to use product? How could they, when they've never seen a cannabis bud in their lives? That, is where I draw the line. The line where my selfish interests meets with the interests of my beloved community

I belong to the camp that feels everyone copies a little from everyone. Thats why corporations spends so much to build their brand. Instead of product differentiation, which can be costly and easy to plateau, most are investing in brand differentiation. I mean, how many can one (afford to) sue anyways? How much will that take away from focusing on the actual business, and eventually benefitting no one else but competitors?

I believe thats why companies are often more agitated when there is a 1:1 clone piggybacking on their brandname. These clones are literally taking money from their pockets. People get cheated off their hard earned money. Can't see any good in that. I'm totally against that for sure.

But i don't see anything wrong with this UFO thingie. The tech is simple enough that we don't need to care if they're made by canna users. The airpath is not a big concern like vapes are. Seems to function well too. Its about time china started making good IHs after the Wdlx crap that was offered.

My guess is, if DV didn't do anything to the abundant of Vapcap and Stem clones from china, that came as a kit with IHs, there is obviously something we don't know about. I'm not a part of DV so no point speculating lol Lets all chill and thermally extract a bowl! Cheers

 

[Texus]

I'm still not clear on the specific evidence that there may be UFO patent infringement here. As such, I'm also in the camp of needing more info before making any judgement on the matter.

 

[kel]

I just did an image search for Dynavap Induction Heater and found dozens of fun interesting curious devices representing the creative explorations of many people - some repetition, but generally it's awesome, have a look:



Now imagine a world where patents actually worked, DV had successfully patented and rigorously defended that patent for the IH and we could just have the Orion, v1 and v2?, that's it - a one dimensional expression of an idea reminiscent of the Communist ideals that everyone should be the same and have the same things. Absolutely no reason whatsoever for DV to continue the innovation because why should they? They can sit pretty knowing that no one else can develop an IH and everyone will have only one choice - their design or nothing.

Perhaps some of the inventors above would have paid DV a license fee, but probably not. I guess that they simply would not exist.

I believe thats why companies are often more agitated when there is a 1:1 clone piggybacking on their brandname. These clones are literally taking money from their pockets. People get cheated off their hard earned money. Can't see any good in that. I'm totally against that for sure.

Absolutely, but you don't need a patent to protect these aspects of business (in theory anyway - the reality is that it's hard to stop if the clones are being made in another county where there is no legal jurisdiction)

 

[VGOODIEZ]

The topic was stealing from Dynavap and it seems a few of you are quite fine with it. My moral compass aims a little differently. Those are the rules I live by. I know these are stolen designs and there is little law that protects such actions. Supporting these endeavors are why they get away with it. I've been bound by corporate patents most of my career. Its not a joke; it is economics.

As a vendor who recently started offering these and one who has a track record for doing what's right for the industry, I'm certainly not fine with it. But I agree more information needs to be provided instead of throwing out these very serious accusations. Where is the proof? Where does Dynavap themselves stand on this? I have gone back to Vaping Fans and asked them about your statements. I also intend to go to Dynavap (who is much more than George BTW). Maybe they can shed some light here because what we have now is just conjecture.

 

[Vasgas]

Ok. I went to check them out cos I wrote a long piece while super baked, and I felt like a dick for not researching more prior

Ok. i gotta take back everything i said about the UFO. I thought they were just making induction heaters. I thought they were just knocking off caps and stems. I didn't expect this:

VapingFans on Instagram: "Auto Induction Heater 7s test #induction heater #dynavap"

26 likes, 23 comments - vapingfans on March 1, 2021: "Auto Induction Heater 7s test #induction heater #dynavap".

www.instagram.com

Wtf? These guys have zero idea what they're knocking off. How difficult is it to watch some DV videos or reviews? This is kinda messed up and quite insulting to the community imho.

 

[arb]

Ok. I went to check them out cos I wrote a long piece while super baked, and I felt like a dick for not researching more prior

Ok. i gotta take back everything i said about the UFO. I thought they were just making induction heaters. I thought they were just knocking off caps and stems. I didn't expect this:

VapingFans on Instagram: "Auto Induction Heater 7s test #induction heater #dynavap"

26 likes, 23 comments - vapingfans on March 1, 2021: "Auto Induction Heater 7s test #induction heater #dynavap".

www.instagram.com

Wtf? These guys have zero idea what they're knocking off. How difficult is it to watch some DV videos or reviews? This is kinda messed up and quite insulting to the community imho.

That is hilarious.

 

[TommyDee]

As a vendor who recently started offering these and one who has a track record for doing what's right for the industry, I'm certainly not fine with it. But I agree more information needs to be provided instead of throwing out these very serious accusations. Where is the proof? Where does Dynavap themselves stand on this? I have gone back to Vaping Fans and asked them about your statements. I also intend to go to Dynavap (who is much more than George BTW). Maybe they can shed some light here because what we have now is just conjecture.

Thank you. Chris too can provide some background. If you find that intrusion detection is not a direct ripoff from the Orion, I will take back my words. And to be clear, my words are that I love the formfactor of the UFO and I hate the fact that it is developed on the back of stolen tech. That is why I won't have one. Knowingly buying stolen good is immoral to say the least and illegal in 50 states. It has nothing to do with getting caught. Brushing it off is a matter of complacency. That is where this conversation has gone. I thank you again for looking into this further and I look forward to the official word from Dynavap and Dynatec. I have enough input from private conversations and George's public angst during teatime that makes my original statement valid in my eyes where proper investigation will ferret out the truth.

 

[VGOODIEZ]

Thank you. Chris too can provide some background. If you find that intrusion detection is not a direct ripoff from the Orion, I will take back my words. And to be clear, my words are that I love the formfactor of the UFO and I hate the fact that it is developed on the back of stolen tech. That is why I won't have one. Knowingly buying stolen good is immoral to say the least and illegal in 50 states. It has noting to do with getting caught. Brushing it off is a matter of complacency. That is where this conversation has gone. I thank you again for looing into this further and I look forward to the official word from Dynavap and Dynatec. I have enough input from private conversations and George's public angst during teatime that makes my original statement valid in my eyes where proper investigation will ferret out the truth.

Getting influence from another product is not patent infringement unless that specific feature is outlined in the patent itself. To me to that is the very point here and unfortunately you cannot take back what you have already stirred up.

I typically don't have time for Tea time but I'm not sure George's public angst qualifies as the proof we are looking for here.

So again I have gone to both parties. I know what some members of the community feel about knock offs. I am right there with ya when it comes most. It is a major reason I am just now starting to do any business with Vaping Fans although much of my competition (Sneaky Pete, PIU, POTV) has been doing business with them for years. Buying knocko offs and offering them to you and nobody seemed be up in arms but now we are? Look at all the glass items.... Dynavap accessories. Many knock offs from smaller artisan dealers but you see them all over the community and people are happy to have them.

Whatever the case I will wait for the response from Dynavap. Vaping Fans has already responded stating they didn't believe there was intellectual property infringement. If Dynavap tells me it is I will be pulling them and will no longer do business with Vaping Fans. But understand that Vaping Fans has OEM business with a lot of manufacturers as well.

 

[invertedisdead]

Elephant in the room: you can’t protect an ungranted patent, that’s why people
apply for patents in the first place!

When I was in school we were told patents were basically obsolete for this reason. Better to keep the ten grand and the trade secrets to yourself and win on speed to market. That’s why the Colonel never patented his secret herbs and spices and instead kept it a non-disclosed trade secret.

I would also assume Pipes has the prior art on portable induction heaters.

And I suspect the flux of “intercooler” copies will go the same way, even though Simrell was seeking patent coverage on that.

 

[TommyDee]

Thank you again for following up @VGOODIEZ .

@invertedisdead - that patent was granted - as usual, certain claims, rarely the whole of it.
But to be clear, I stated 'stolen tech'. That began at the non-disclosure agreement. I pointed out the patent to zero in on the tech I am referring to.

 

[kel]

Someone really can't acknowledge the fact that these are *still* unfounded very serious accusations... yet is going round thanking people like they have somehow validated their position -

- this is off the charts weird @@

The actual ___ reality ___ is that we ___ still ___ don't know if this is stolen or not.

I am still holding judgement until there is a court case << without this it is just conjecture!

==

edit: I am now certain I am being trolled here,, so this is where I step away because this is turning psychotically manipulative and brutal nasty...

TommyDee - I am calling it - you are a bad actor.

Look at the timestamp on the posts and edits - screenshot attached!

Woweeee... talk about backtracking and trying to eat your own tail /// hilarious /// thanks for the laugh, I wish you well... bye!

 

[TommyDee]

You are just as capable to go to Chris and George and ask them directly @kel . What are you afraid of?

 

[kel]

You are just as capable to go to Chris and George and ask them directly @kel . What are you afraid of?

I am not afraid of anything,. just think it highly inappropriate and it's not me who is going round telling people they are thieves!

I have nothing to prove, all I am doing is pointing out, yet again, that going round accusing people of criminal activity without providing any evidence is downright nasty morally bankrupt behaviour.

Shameful! Absolutely shameful!!

This will still be true, even IF it turns out that the UFO is in fact stolen tech, again - without the court case there is no justification for this whatsoever.

edit: this post was made after my edit above, I am out of here now. I have nothing else to say. If it does turn out that UFO is using stolen tech, I will not be making any apology as that is not what my posts have been about. It's about the morality of accusing others of criminal activity when there is no evidence that any crime has actually been committed - that in my book is around about as low as you can get with dirty tricks.

 

[RustyOldNail]

Dynavap maybe in the right, BUT.... remember the more IH’s out there .... means more DYNAVAPS!

So, while perhaps owning the patent on some in house developed electronics, it’s probably a wise business decision NOT to pursue a legal and potential public battle. The more heaters in consumers hands, means more sales of DV’s. I’d bet DV only started carrying IH’s as customers requested them, one stop shopping. I realize there are clones of DV stems and tips, but George has kept the prices reasonable for most that want the quality of the OG, especially the TIPS and CAPS.

Kodak used to give away cheap cameras..... but customers needed to BUY the FILM....