Discontinued Zion vaporizer

[RastaBuddhaTao]

Thanks KeroZen for your concern for the safety of the Zion users! I checked with my EE and it is more like 6.2. We are not charging the batteries in series for the reasons that you mentioned. We plan to test and specify the exact high drain 18650's that are allowable and are specifying IMR chemistry. We only recently moved from power supply to battery testing but now need to work through the exact specifications of each component for the initial production build as well as complete the a detailed failure modes and effects analysis. I sent you a lengthy PM with the details.

 

[KeroZen]

Yes safety is one thing (and if you manage to have your babies shipped internationally at some point, I wish you to succeed, you will have to deal with the legal and administrative aspects, as carriers now require paperwork to transport batteries) but I'm not that much concerned, I'm sure you and your team will do it right.

My remarks were more from an usability point of view, and especially about the addition (or not) of a LED to reflect the battery (dis)charge. I also foresee some possible difficulties if you let the user chose different cells than the ones you designed the device with. That being said, you could simply do like Arizer did for the Air: just state that using any non "official" cell with your device will void the warranty. Not negotiable, period.

I can understand your desire to adhere to the KISS principle and lean design in general, but adding a simple LED shouldn't add too much complexity. It can be pretty basic but efficient at the same time, like just adding a second cutoff point, kicking in before the one you already have (say why not when you reach the 80% discharge point?) and past that point the red LED would stay on... until you deplete the cells fully and the lower cutoff point is reached, powering off the device as a safety measure.

This way it would be very un-intrusive and easy to grasp: as soon as red shows up, you know you are on the fuel reserve and should find a gas station soon! (and if you are battery-cautious you should stop using the device to preserve the cycle count and increase battery long term life)

PS: speaking about lean design, you should also have a look at the Firewood vaporizer, I have a version 2.1 in my hand right now as I'm typing, and it's a lovely thing. Their use of NiMh chemistry could be questioned but it also allowed to greatly reduce the complexity and made the device safer. There are some drawbacks of course, I'm not telling you to do the same, but it's definitely a good inspiraton source and a seriously under-rated vape.

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

This site is amazing... The feedback I have received so far has been in in invaluable! Kero, I hit ya with another lengthy PM

What does everyone else think? Are you ok with perceiving the batteries are dead by the inability of the unit to produce vapor or would you like a visual indicator? If yes, how much is it worth... $5, 10? Interested to know everyone's thoughts?

What about making it an option with a lighted fire button? Would you like to see a choice of hardware/knob/ switch finish? Silver on maple, brass on walnut? Would add lead time and a small cost for the higher end finishes.

Keep the expert feedback and suggestions coming!

 

[Shit Snacks]

This site is amazing... The feedback I have received so far has been in in invaluable! Kero, I hit ya with another lengthy PM

What does everyone else think? Are you ok with perceiving the batteries are dead by the inability of the unit to produce vapor or would you like a visual indicator? If yes, how much is it worth... $5, 10? Interested to know everyone's thoughts?

What about making it an option with a lighted fire button? Would you like to see a choice of hardware/knob/ switch finish? Silver on maple, brass on walnut? Would add lead time and a small cost for the higher end finishes.

Keep the expert feedback and suggestions coming!

I think the indicator would be nice, but on a portable like this its not super necessary. The way this is made, reminds me more of the T1 and mflb, keeping costs down is a good thing, especially considering this looks like it could outperform those models. Also like with the Air, eventually you get a feel for how long you can go and just make sure to have spares handy (the Air I guess is easier bc it has 10min sessions, to help you time it out. I know to stop at 4 or 5 to preserve battery life and help them recharge quicker)

Also for more choices, they sound great, but to keep costs down I would put them on the back burner and decide on one strong one for the first go round. Maybe likewise with the LED. I'm always a fan of the KISS method and it seems like this may be capable of some really impressive performance without any bells and whistles

 

[°k]

I personally find a battery indicator quite useful, I don't have it on my air and find myself always taking an extra battery with me even for a small session out (as I don't always remember how much I've used the one in it). As for the price for it, I can't really tell... I guess I'd be ok with an extra $5 or 10, how much can that cost to implement?

One thing though if you decide to go that road, keep in mind colour-blind people, I for instance can't make the difference with my ESV when it's charging (yellow) or full (green)... I don't have much problem with the Air though (blue, white, green, orange, red).

 

[paytonpenn]

An indicator is only going to help YOU @RastaBuddhaTao. Okay, it helps us too, imagine how many more people will buy it when you add it. No need for it to cost extra when it will pay for itself.

Right?

I personally think simplicity is key, one thing I enjoy about my Hammer, MFLB, and Firewood is when I notice its time to charge/refill. Really makes me feel connected with my unit and how it works. If it is going to be extra I'd like the option to not have it; I quickly notice when my vape is not performing and I think a new user would too because my vape should be leaving them downed.

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

Much gratitude for all the Great input. Rastabuddhatao Loves the MFLB for its simplicity. We continually strive to the less is more design philosophy and are mearly trying to apply it to convection technology. Yes, for the first release we are Nazi KISS as we are looking to find the simplest most reliable way to put as many hours on the core heater technology as this is the new technology that needs to be studied. Not to over simplify it but the rest is just wires, converters, switches and potentiometers. With that said, the MFLB has a small LED and I get the impression that is all that is being asked for here. It was also stated that that shouldnt cost much if implemented simply and effectively and probably worth a few bucks. (practically free : ) So, I believe the correct design direction at this to add a small LED with a trim bezel on the top of the unit near the temperature control switch. This puts it right above the power electronics compartment as well as in plain view of the user as it will be literally under their nose. The LED will be green in color as it indicates that the batteries are working and will go dim once the diode kicks in at the bottom of charge.

For the record I due reserve the right to exercise the lighted switch option if that proves to be the most cost effective, highest quality, most design fluid solution and may not be implemented at all at time of launch lol

Keep in mind the units will be released in blocks so that each block can will be a set of design changes that is evaluated prior to each release. So as it evolves organically we have the ability to add in and take way in this “living” design J

Now for the next element for discussion. Should a master on/off slide switch be added? This is to prevent incidental firing in your pocket as well as prevent battery drain (all be it small) when the unit is not in use. This is deployed on the FireFly as well as in the e-cig world with the “press five times to activate” initial mode.

 

[Shit Snacks]

Much gratitude for all the Great input. Rastabuddhatao Loves the MFLB for its simplicity. We continually strive to the less is more design philosophy and are mearly trying to apply it to convection technology. Yes, for the first release we are Nazi KISS as we are looking to find the simplest most reliable way to put as many hours on the core heater technology as this is the new technology that needs to be studied. Not to over simplify it but the rest is just wires, converters, switches and potentiometers. With that said, the MFLB has a small LED and I get the impression that is all that is being asked for here. It was also stated that that shouldnt cost much if implemented simply and effectively and probably worth a few bucks. (practically free : ) So, I believe the correct design direction at this to add a small LED with a trim bezel on the top of the unit near the temperature control switch. This puts it right above the power electronics compartment as well as in plain view of the user as it will be literally under their nose. The LED will be green in color as it indicates that the batteries are working and will go dim once the diode kicks in at the bottom of charge.

For the record I due reserve the right to exercise the lighted switch option if that proves to be the most cost effective, highest quality, most design fluid solution and may not be implemented at all at time of launch lol

Keep in mind the units will be released in blocks so that each block can will be a set of design changes that is evaluated prior to each release. So as it evolves organically we have the ability to add in and take way in this “living” design J

Now for the next element for discussion. Should a master on/off slide switch be added? This is to prevent incidental firing in your pocket as well as prevent battery drain (all be it small) when the unit is not in use. This is deployed on the FireFly as well as in the e-cig world with the “press five times to activate” initial mode.

I think a master switch is always a good idea, but one that doesn't draw too much power, though I dont think this design would like the Firefly does. If you leave the firefly switch on for a while accidentally you kill you're battery

 

[°k]

...
Now for the next element for discussion. Should a master on/off slide switch be added? This is to prevent incidental firing in your pocket as well as prevent battery drain (all be it small) when the unit is not in use. This is deployed on the FireFly as well as in the e-cig world with the “press five times to activate” initial mode.

Definitely, I don't like the fact for instance that on the ESV there's no switch and the battery ends up empty after some time because of being constantly on stand-by.

Edit:
I want to be able to leave a vape on the side for a few day and then use it without having to charge it.

Edit:
It's true that if the battery can be removed that solves that issue... I guess if the discharge speed is not too important there's no need for such a switch...

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

I think a master switch is always a good idea, but one that doesn't draw too much power, though I dont think this design would like the Firefly does. If you leave the firefly switch on for a while accidentally you kill you're battery

Ahhh no in the Zion we are talking a trickle drain that would take weeks to notice unless also under extreme temperatures. Of course, in extreme temperatures your batteries should be in your pocket It's really an ultra safety thing for preventing self discharge if the fire button is continually depressed. We plan to do continual on cycles with the Zion. We have wrap of silica insulation between the glass and the wood that is rated for 1200 degrees so we should have any issues.

 

[Scott A]

As someone who has had a lot of problems with vaporizers even some of the more simple working ones I say definitely keep it as simple as possible and keep the parts as high quality as possible. I think that philosophy pays off in the end by keeping customers happy and keeping replacement costs down.

 

[KeroZen]

Manufacturer on-board, listening to our feedback and interacting with us... this is becoming more and more interesting! (if it wasn't interesting enough already...)

 

[pakalolo]

What about making it an option with a lighted fire button? Would you like to see a choice of hardware/knob/ switch finish? Silver on maple, brass on walnut? Would add lead time and a small cost for the higher end finishes.

Options are great for the customer but a royal pain for the manufacturer: increased inventory and delivering the wrong options, just to name a couple. That switch must be capable of handling the power needed by your heater, and I know that both the Cera and Flashvape manufacturers had a hard time coming up with something suitable, let alone multiple choices. Different woods, on the other hand, are almost a necessity. You'll have to offer them at some point, although I'd think the initial release would not offer a choice.

If this is a pocket device then some way to prevent accidental firing is a must.

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

Options are great for the customer but a royal pain for the manufacturer: increased inventory and delivering the wrong options, just to name a couple. That switch must be capable of handling the power needed by your heater, and I know that both the Cera and Flashvape manufacturers had a hard time coming up with something suitable, let alone multiple choices. Different woods, on the other hand, are almost a necessity. You'll have to offer them at some point, although I'd think the initial release would not offer a choice.

If this is a pocket device then some way to prevent accidental firing is a must.

Yes better to walk before you run. I am planning on a very simple release but I am starting to think ahead to what would be the "build-out" plan. Yeh the switches to handle this kind of power are far and few between and NOT cheap. Will launch with 6 natural stains (2 light, 2 red, 2 dark) on Maple... but look forward to specialty woods.

Even with all of or recent efforts to slim it down it still a little on the big side for a portable but I believe I have an idea that will allow us to implement a kill switch with negligible impact in the size of the unit. It's just another high amperage switch to pay for lol.

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

I received word today that my patent has been filed! So cool it happened to be on Bob Marley's birthday

This allows me to share a bit more about the technology so I thought that I would start with the 5 main benefits. Let the gauntlet begin!

Patent Pending for “High Area to volume ratio heater element" Granted on 02/06/2015
This intellectual property described herein will detail a design that aims to increase the surface area to volume ratio of a resistive heater element as well as increase the heat transfer rate with the passing flow stream to:

1. Reduce the surface temperature and thereby reduce the delta between the inlet air and the heater element temperatures reducing hot spots that can lead to uneven vaporization.
2. Increase air impingement and turbulence on the surface and through the surface of the heater element adding to the uniformity of the temperature gradient with added dispersion provided by the heater screen.
3. Reduce the pressure drop of the overall system such that is in negligible as compared to the load.
4. Reduce the overall power required to heat an air steam by increasing the efficiency of the device and maximizing the amount of heat energy that is transferred to the air stream and reducing the amount taken on by the device as waste heat.
5. Generate a response time such that from "cold start" it can instantaneously be at the selected vaporization temperature "at time of draw" with little to no lag in response time.

This technology is not limited to the convection vaporizer market it will also enable any industry that requires ultrafine control over the temperature of a low flow non-flammable process flow gas requiring a low pressure drop. Although explained here in the context of dual 3.7V batteries in series controlled by a DC buck circuit the technology is applicable to many voltages and current ranges in both AC and DC configuration. The primary purpose of this disclosure is the heater technology and relevant surrounding necessities as the power technology is supplied by off the shelf power electronics.

 

[vinnyzan]

What price range do you think it will land in ? I see nothings set in stone so sorry if its too early to be asking, but I assume you have some idea ?

A GonG WPA would be pretty sweet, so would ability to use concentrates.

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

Yes, it is early to comment on price. The unit was been shared with the public while still in the design phase in order to ensure sufficient customer feedback. With that said the stripped down Zion is evaluating more features... LED, master power switch, resettable fuses, etc that are increasing the size and price. Remaining committed to an American hardwood body is also a cost challenge. We are also evaluating the accessories that will be included... Carry bag, extra mouthpiece and screens, brand of batteries and Charger.

For people that already have the right high drain 18650 batteries and charger we will be offering the batteries and charger as an option which will reduce the cost for some customers. We will also eventually offer different capacity batteries and charger options so that will impact price point.

I would really like to know what the community here thinks it would be worth?

I can say the plan is to be 20 to 30 percent lower than the two portable pure convection vaporizers that are on the market today. There is a big void between the MFLB and the PAX/Ascent/Firefly that we are targeting.

The unit has provisions to use concentrate but we will be doing a concentrate specific unit as a vehicle cannot be a car and a truck at the same time . With that said, it is a pretty slick method that is superior to most methods for running concentrates in a flower unit.

 

[vinnyzan]

It really depends on performance, didn't want to bother getting all exited and ask a bunch of questions to find out its out of my price range.

As far as what its worth to the community, Kind of hard to say until I hear some more about functionality ( Air flow/ efficency/ maintenance) really the best way to get an idea of that is to hear from some one who has one and has/has used the sames vapes as me. Not saying I just introduced a new concept or anything . Just saying best way for you to get an answer to your question is get a couple of units out to some non biased fc goers so they can compare it to some already popular vapes.

Thanks for your response and good luck!

 

[mixchu69]

Yes, it is early to comment on price. The unit was been shared with the public while still in the design phase in order to ensure sufficient customer feedback. With that said the stripped down Zion is evaluating more features... LED, master power switch, resettable fuses, etc that are increasing the size and price. Remaining committed to an American hardwood body is also a cost challenge. We are also evaluating the accessories that will be included... Carry bag, extra mouthpiece and screens, brand of batteries and Charger.

For people that already have the right high drain 18650 batteries and charger we will be offering the batteries and charger as an option which will reduce the cost for some customers. We will also eventually offer different capacity batteries and charger options so that will impact price point.

I would really like to know what the community here thinks it would be worth?

I can say the plan is to be 20 to 30 percent lower than the two portable pure convection vaporizers that are on the market today. There is a big void between the MFLB and the PAX/Ascent/Firefly that we are targeting.

The unit has provisions to use concentrate but we will be doing a concentrate specific unit as a vehicle cannot be a car and a truck at the same time . With that said, it is a pretty slick method that is superior to most methods for running concentrates in a flower unit.

I personally would not ask what it should be priced at. Instead, ask people how much is their max threshold for a portable device. It's impossible to say until you get some seasoned vaporists (I've been only in the game for less than a year, others since the 90s) to compare to other vaporizers and see what they are willing to pay. I know there are a lot of people on FC that have years of experience and tried them all. Give them a beta to test and see how it stacks up to the rest of the portables.

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

Agreed and that is the path. The first Zion 2x4 Beta unit is nearing completion and once it is tested some detailed videos will be released to show performance and function. My question was more a Marketing based inquiry if the seasoned vapors here feel there is a gap in the market offerings. There are cheap "vape pens" that combust, a bunch of cheap Chinese conduction vapes and the MFLB at around $100 and then there seems to be a big gap until you hit the $200 plus vaporizers? Just looks like a sweet spot to me for an American working mans convection aromatherapy vaporizer.... That is the core of RastaBuddhaTao's marketing/business plan. Thoughts FCers?

 

[EveryDayAmnesiac]

I can say the plan is to be 20 to 30 percent lower than the two portable pure convection vaporizers that are on the market today.

If this were priced 30% lower than my Firefly or Elevape SV (the two portable instant convection vapes I'm assuming you're talking about) then I'd almost certainly be on board.

On demand convection with real portability is "the shit," as they say. Or used to. Maybe they still do. I don't fucking know.

 

[paytonpenn]

Pax, Ascent, and Firefly are all in the overpriced category with the Ascent having more reason to be at that price range.

I personally don't think many vapes are worth more than 200. There are many vapes in the 100-200 range they just are available for the lower end even though the manufacturer has it price closer to 200.

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

Well, I still say it but I'm old . Yeh I am fighting hard to keep it to the bare minimum using only the parts required for performance and safety. This will lead to lower cost and reliability. Your correct in that the mission is on demand open loop convection that has a highly reliable and uniform simple intuitive and organic. Sort of the MFLB of convection.

Agreed on the assessment on over priced vapes... And yes a staggering number of vaporizers being released these days! Hopefully the vaporizing community is as impressed with the high surface area to volume heater technology we are using as our early adopters have been... Some of the early comments have been "taste like my Volcano" and "it's like a portable Dabuddha" which are wonderful complements indeed

 

[stickstones]

If you go over $250 you're sunk. At $150 it sounds like a winner, assuming performance is up to par.

 

[paytonpenn]

Don't forget to have many birthday sales. Even if you only have one birthday year. I've noticed that really helps bring in more customers.