Discontinued Zion vaporizer

[VegNVape]

Does no one see the irony in this statement from a member of staff at a website called fuckcombustion.com. I fear we may have stumbled upon some kind of paradox here.

To be clear and this is a direct quote from u r video
'iv set it on 87% to avoid combusting my material'.

But with the Zion you have the flexibility to use flower, or any variation of concentrate which obviously requires a much higher temperature than flowers do to fully vaporize, so therefore the power is definitely there for the ability to combust, it is how it is used that is important.

I WANT the ability to be able to combust. But I do not wish to combust, just as you quoted pakalolo saying in his vid.

I'm with @pakalolo, I don't know why you're making all this fuss about combustion. We are not combusting.

Personally, I think that you should probably create a new thread if you just want to discuss combustion within vaporizers in general.

 

[IAmKrazy2]

Does no one see the irony in this statement from a member of staff at a website called fuckcombustion.com. I fear we may have stumbled upon some kind of paradox here.

To be clear and this is a direct quote from u r video
'iv set it on 87% to avoid combusting my material'.

Did Alanis Morsette teach you the wrong definition of irony?

I·ro·ny1
noun

1. the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
   "“Don't go overboard with the gratitude,” he rejoined with heavy irony"

Edit. So to answer your question, no one will see ANY irony in this statement unless they are unaware of the definition of irony.

Double edit. DopeShow, you may need to look up the definition of paradox also, but i will let you do that yourself.

 

[DopeShow]

Did Alanis Morsette teach you the wrong definition of irony?

Like variable power when all u need is a precise temp
Isn't it ironic.....don't u think

It's a massive paradox to say u don't want to combust u r materials and at the same time have no temperature control.

 

[DieHard]

It is just wonderful that there SO many different choices of Vapes to buy, that you don't have to buy one that you don't like. What a great time to be alive.
ZiON On...

 

[cybrguy]

I'd apply for thyme and sage.

Hey, add Parsley and Rosemary and you could sing about it...

That was just kind of automatic in my head. Sorry.

It's a massive paradox to say u don't want to combust u r materials and at the same time have no temperature control.

It would be a major paradox if the Zion got you soooo stoned that you traveled back through time and ran into yourself. The good news is, the likelihood of that is similar to the likelihood that a lack of temp readout will interfere with your ability to keep from combusting.

Just sayin...

Oops, coffee hasn't kicked in yet. Mods, feel free to combine these two as you wish.

 

[Shit Snacks]

It's a massive paradox to say u don't want to combust u r materials and at the same time have no temperature control.

No, because as already explained here, precise temp control is not even remotely required to not combust, and most vapes that offer temp control are far from precise.

The combustion thing, Pak doesn't get your fuss about combustion, not generally avoiding it. And frankly I don't quite get it either, you seem to keep repeating yourself here to bring it up over and over again, when it is a risk with many other common vapes as well...

Honestly dude, it just feels like youre wasting our time and energy here as well as your own

Did Alanis Morsette teach you the wrong definition of irony?

I·ro·ny1
noun

1. the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
   "“Don't go overboard with the gratitude,” he rejoined with heavy irony"

Reminds of the back and forth in this episode, such a commonly misinterpreted word!

 

[HD Springer]

If your really that worried about combusting @DopeShow then I would seek a vaporizer that will get you no where near combustion. For myself, I'm seeking out that vaporizer that has enough power to combust but can be maintained just below the combustion level.
You see, for the more experienced users,we like to be able to have the added power with the ability to harness it just below that line of combustion. I'm not sure why you continue to harp on this topic. Any torch vaporizer can combust. It's up to the user to prevent this. You need to find that perfect conduction vaporizer that fits your needs. One that has no where near the power to combust.

 

[IAmKrazy2]

It's a massive paradox to say u don't want to combust u r materials and at the same time have no temperature control.

As you have been told multiple times there IS.temp control on this device. It may not be in degrees, but it is there. And as i said before, unless you.have an Herbalizer any displayed temp is probably pretty damn far from accurate as you can't really put a temp sensor in the middle of a bowl.

Edit. DopeShow it seems you can not handle or harness the power. SO DON'T. Move along. The power here is obviously not for you.

 

[Edric al-Fali]

I tried to keep this clean, but it may have turned into a rant.


Everybody has stated satisfactorily why there is risk of combustion and why it isn't a problem. Everybody has successfully stated the importance of the knob with adjusting temperature.

I could go into the Crafty thread and start the same argument that they don't have temp controls even though they technically do. The Prima and Firewood technically don't have em either. If we're arguing for the sake of arguing, my Extreme Q with its shiny buttons and digital display that shows a temperature doesn't provide temp control either; it skips numbers and it's not telling me what the temperature is in the chamber itself.
These all provide a range of heat that you can set based on your experience with the unit; sounds a lot like temperature controls to me. I can also combust with pretty much everything I've used except the iolite.

Using the EQ as an example, the numbers are only a placemarker to me. Bag fill requires higher heat (and different numbers) than a whip. I assume different positions on a knob would provide me with a similar ease of a reference to desired heat.

On the other hand, I could argue that the iolite and Firefly have the ability to control heat by draw speed despite operating at a fixed temp. Any of the vapes I've stated can also control the heat based on draw speed. I can accept people's argument that a fixed temp isn't good enough for them, but it works just fine for me. I'm trying to illustrate that temperature controls are not a rigid technique.


Also this. http://www.rastabuddhatao.net/temperatures
Notice how at three settings, you can create temperature ranges with several factors.
Part of being on a thread about a certain vaporizer is discussing how it works. I would assume that the standard parts allow us to share experiences with different settings. I had intended to wait until we started getting production parts to bring this up, but I want people to share their general experiences with knob settings and the temp ranges they could represent.
I plan on marking mine with notches to represent fresh stuff, dry stuff, wet stuff, old dry powdery stuff, etc.

 

[phattpiggie]

@DopeShow if you've looked at the other RBT threads you will see both @HD Springer and @IAmKrazy2 have used the totally unregulated Dual Power House.
Which as their friends found out, because they didn't listen, is more than capable of combustion, but when the technique is right and attention is paid even a Granny coped with it.
In a nutshell the Zion will combust if you wish it to. But it also capable of being an all day sipper. It's up to the user to get it right. If you don't get it buy something a bit less user intuitive.

 

[Shit Snacks]

I tried to keep this clean, but it may have turned into a rant.


Everybody has stated satisfactorily why there is risk of combustion and why it isn't a problem. Everybody has successfully stated the importance of the knob with adjusting temperature.

I could go into the Crafty thread and start the same argument that they don't have temp controls even though they technically do. The Prima and Firewood technically don't have em either. If we're arguing for the sake of arguing, my Extreme Q with its shiny buttons and digital display that shows a temperature doesn't provide temp control either; it skips numbers and it's not telling me what the temperature is in the chamber itself.
These all provide a range of heat that you can set based on your experience with the unit; sounds a lot like temperature controls to me. I can also combust with pretty much everything I've used except the iolite.

Using the EQ as an example, the numbers are only a placemarker to me. Bag fill requires higher heat (and different numbers) than a whip. I assume different positions on a knob would provide me with a similar ease of a reference to desired heat.

On the other hand, I could argue that the iolite and Firefly have the ability to control heat by draw speed despite operating at a fixed temp. Any of the vapes I've stated can also control the heat based on draw speed. I can accept people's argument that a fixed temp isn't good enough for them, but it works just fine for me. I'm trying to illustrate that temperature controls are not a rigid technique.


Also this. http://www.rastabuddhatao.net/temperatures
Notice how at three settings, you can create temperature ranges with several factors.
Part of being on a thread about a certain vaporizer is discussing how it works. I would assume that the standard parts allow us to share experiences with different settings. I had intended to wait until we started getting production parts to bring this up, but I want people to share their general experiences with knob settings and the temp ranges they could represent.
I plan on marking mine with notches to represent fresh stuff, dry stuff, wet stuff, old dry powdery stuff, etc.

Indeed, I only had an early beta, but I posted many times about temp stepping with the dial, and how I felt the corresponding effects of a temp controlled vape at the various % spots on the dial. The production model allows the full spectrum of the dial to be used as well.

Also worth keeping in mind, like Firefly its open loop, so the longer you hold the trigger, the higher temp rises as well (this is partly to compensate for your draw, so it does not get over powered). So that is another form of temp control, the trigger, which you can also pulse. So many variables! So fun to experiment!

 

[pakalolo]

Does no one see the irony in this statement from a member of staff at a website called fuckcombustion.com. I fear we may have stumbled upon some kind of paradox here.

To be clear and this is a direct quote from u r video
'iv set it on 87% to avoid combusting my material'.

Yes, and I think I also said that if I went to 100% I'd be certain to combust. If I didn't say it in that version, I know I said it in other takes of the attempt because it's true. If you set the power to 100% and do what I was attempting you will get combustion, but if you set it to 87% you can pull 20-30 seconds even with dry ABV and not get combustion. You seem to be ignoring completely the many times that you've been told that while the Zion can reach combustion, it is easy to avoid and is extremely unlikely to happen by accident.

You're also misinterpreting my statement. The fuss I meant, and I think this is pretty clear from the context, is the fuss you and one or two others were making about the danger of combusting with a Zion despite being reassured. I don't know why you can't accept my word and that of several others when we tell you that it isn't an issue, therefore there shouldn't be a fuss.

Edit: My comments apply to the heater in Pauahi, which is not the production version; however, it is unlikely that the two will vary much on this point.

 

[DopeShow]

@DopeShow if you've looked at the other RBT threads you will see both @HD Springer and @IAmKrazy2 have used the totally unregulated Dual Power House.
Which as their friends found out, because they didn't listen, is more than capable of combustion, but when the technique is right and attention is paid even a Granny coped with it.
In a nutshell the Zion will combust if you wish it to. But it also capable of being an all day sipper. It's up to the user to get it right. If you don't get it buy something a bit less user intuitive.

I appreciate this its vital to understand the distinction and I need this information before I consider buying a device. Maybe having different and unregulated models on test is what's causing the issues for me. I have certainly seen some test user combusting thier herb.
Perhaps this will be clarified once the final version is released.

 

[pakalolo]

I have certainly seen some test user combusting thier herb.

Not with a Zion. I do not believe such video exists online.

 

[IAmKrazy2]

Not with a Zion. I do not believe such video exists online.

Agreed Pak.

@DopeShow, you are wrong here 100%. As i said before the people testing here know what combustion is. WE AREN'T COMBUSTING IN THE VIDEOS and the fact you keep saying so over and over that we are combusting as a matter of fact, proves simply your lack of experience with any vaporizer i would personally deem "good". But different strokes for different folks.

As i stated before, feel free to believe me or Pak on this, who were there, made the videos, and have been forum members for many years, or trust someone who wasn't there, never used Zion tech, and has been a forum member less than two months. Your choice.

 

[Krazzykid]

I have certainly seen some test user combusting thier herb.

You certainly have NOT seen any user combusting with any of the Zion devices, not on videos posted anyways. Absolutely no one has posted any videos where combustion took place with a Zion. You have been told this many times now, yet you keep insisting otherwise.

I will repeat myself since you aren't understanding. There are ZERO videos posted in which combustion took place with the Zion.

Is your goal just to come in here with the intention of pissing people off and trying to start an argument? If that's the case then there's a word for that, trolling, and it's not allowed here.

I am going to repeat the advice of others. You need to go back and actually read this thread. You also need to go and read general vaporization threads until you understand what vaporization is, since you still seem to be confusing it with combustion.

 

[thekarmawhore]

I think everyone should take a few deep breaths and relax. It's almost Christmas!

The key takeaway from this latest round of discussion, friends, is that although combustion with the Zion unit is possible, once a user is familiar with the device, (which incidentally, doesn't take very long as it is very intuitive) it becomes a willful act. You KNOW when you're risking it and are not at all surprised when it happens.

DopeShow, should you ever decide to board the Zion train, I will personally guarantee your unit, and if you don't love it, will buy it back from you and pay the shipping.

your pal,
thekarmawhore

Edit to add emphasis that this is a personal guarantee and has nothing to do with RBT the company's standard warranties, guarantee's, etc.

 

[DieHard]

One last note to add. Only one person in the ten that have tried Loki have had a combustion event. Both of my parents (70+y.o.). were able to figure it out with just one use.
Fuck Combustion...

 

[virtualpurple]

Word.

Dopeshow, you really need to read the whole thread to give yourself a proper education. It is becoming clear that your idea of combustion differs from the users here.

One either combusts as they don't. You don't hit the point of combustion (even a little) and have it go unnoticed.

I have combusted accidentally with my underdog, and I have accidentally combusted in my EVO. Both were immediately apparent and resulted in a huge coughing fit. Hell, I had to change out my glass and toss my whip because it just wouldn't lose that taste.

It seems you want a vape that gives you temperature control and assurances against combustion. I would recommend the Herbalizer, Ascent, or Flowermate 5.0 pro. They each have digital temps and you don't have to Fret over the ability to combust.

Now back to the primary topic at hand; I am as excited as ever for my Zion. As much as I would have loved to have it for the holidays, the universe needs to to hone my patience like a fine samurai sword. And so I will. @RastaBuddhaTao i admire your tireless pursuit for perfection and I look forward to enjoying the fruits of your labors. I'll need something to keep me warm at -25, and I believe Zion is the key.

VP abides.

 

[thekarmawhore]

Why did they let a 5yo kid do the design using minecraft?

Though this wasn't a particularly nice way of calling us out on the form factor of our Zion unit, it does highlight your, and perhaps others lack of knowledge regarding the history and design challenge that was ‘the Zion’, so please allow me to bring you up to speed. This is all discussed at some point or another in this thread, but it's scattered about and I can understand how sifting through so many pages of dialogue may be a lot to expect of someone.


The design challenge is this… With a shoestring budget and no access to custom tooling, package the following: 4” female 18mm gong and matching male stem, 2 18650 batteries, one small off the shelf potentiometer and a knob to turn it, one off the shelf fire button, an industry standard regulator chip, off the shelf of course, one magical mystical high performance Zion heater that fits inside the female gong, enough wire to hook it all together, and also meet the following criteria:

No exposed wiring, batteries are easily user swappable, unit is completely self contained and has an integrated stash spot and stir tool, contains only FC approved materials in the airpath, is full pure convection with a wide open flow, heater is completely protected from debris, device is simple and intuitive to use, easy to maintain, and is strong enough to park a car on without damage.

Ready, set, go.

The general consensus so far seems to be that we did alright.

your pal,
thekarmawhore

 

[DieHard]

WOW! If @thekarmawhore had a microphone in his hand, he just threw it down and walked off he stage!

 

[IAmKrazy2]

The TOD reminds me of the Daisy in that I can get massive and instant lung busting tokes of vapor and when I check my material, it isn't even browned yet. Pretty incredible how thick the vapor can be on the first hit or two sometimes when temps are still in the medium to medium high vapor range.

 

[Fat Freddy]

and is strong enough to park a car on without damage.

I looked and looked through the threads and couldn't find anywhere why one would want to park their car on their Zion.

Would that somehow help out with the combustion problems?

Sorry. Couldn't resist!

 

[cybrguy]

Hey, when you HAVE a data point ya GOTTA use it. I think the pic is in RBT's twitter feed...

Whoops, there it is...

 

[DieHard]

I use mine as a Jack stand too...doesn't everybody?
Also works great as a wheel chock.