WTF Is Wrong With America And Gun Control?

[Melting Pot]

I am very pro gun rights, but that isn't the best argument. By that argument, we should all be allowed to have weaponized anthrax.

My problem with gun laws is that they are written by people with no knowledge of firearms. Calling a weapon an assault rifle because it has a pistol grip or other cosmetic features is absurd.

It was more of a rant.
Wasn't tying to do much more than that.
You guys can have this thread.
Peace

 

[Gonzo]

Do you really think that's the majority opinion of citizens here? "Common sense" gun laws have been proven time and time again to be anything but. They don't lessen crime, the facts show. Honest folks are already honest, criminals already ignoring laws they don't like and are unlikely to change. They get smuggled/stolen guns. They don't buy from gun shows or gun shops.

Politicians might be corrupt but they're not stupid. If the poll numbers showed it possible (because voters supported it) do you really think they would hesitate?

Do you really think we can keep drug dealers from getting guns in a world awash with heroin? You only need to smuggle a gun once, you need to move fresh drugs every day?

I think it's really a matter of a lot of good folks coming to different conclusions than you. They fear registration since the nearly universal experience with such lists is they are used to take guns away. Our own government even got into this. They used Nazi compiled lists to go door to door at the end of the war, I had a Gunsmith friend (now long dead) that had just such a .22 rifle. He bought it from a GI who was given it by a German citizen literally as the crews were clearing guns from the next block over.....he'd rather give the rifle his grandfather gave him as a child to 'his enemy' than have it destroyed.

Don't say 'it can't happen here', it just hasn't yet?



Aren't you in the UK? Not America, let alone the US? You don't have such rights under the Constitution there? Hasn't nobility traditionally controlled arms in the hands of the subjects (both ways, mandating peasants arm themselves and practice martial arts when it suited them)? Different rules here, no subjects.

While nobody needs to be permanently armed (remember we arm all our police, park rangers, EPA officials and a bunch of similar Government employees here) of course. Take for instance the UK, no guns? Yet over twice the rate of criminal assault with hands and feet? To people there have more hands and feet than here? It's not a tool that is the problem, it's the (criminal) actions of some folks.

Consider our Florida experience a while back. Small time armed robberies and especially RAPE became all the rage. The State started training women to pack and defend themselves, 20,000 in the first pass. Word got out as dangerous innocent victims started interfering with the program. For a brief time they started targeting rental cars and out of state plates (no permits....), but that didn't last. Took 'the percentages' out of being a criminal, they moved on. Having the occasional victim shoot back is a buzz kill for them. "Foxes prefer rabbits with no claws".

There is abundant, peer reviewed, research showing concealed carry of guns by law abiding citizens actually makes real communities safer here. The most dangerous places to live in the US (like Chicago, say) have the nations most restrictive gun laws.......lest you jump to the wrong idea here, the murders came before 'the common sense gun laws' (that are failing). Studies show changing local laws and allowing CCW (Carry Concealed Weapons permit) lowers existing violence overall. Banning guns just gives the drug dealers a safer workplace, really.

And I try to remain conscious that I'm fairly safe where I live. For instance, there are single mothers with little money living in conditions I'm not willing to with children to protect from very real threats. Who am I to interfere with her efforts?

OF

There was a time when the majority's opinion was to keep slaves too. Thankfully for me the older generation started to die off and common sense finally took hold.

I see something similar happening now, not only with gun control but things like gay rights as well.

It's important to make sure your on the right side of history.

 

[OF]

There was a time when the majority's opinion was to keep slaves too. Thankfully for me the older generation started to die off and common sense finally took hold.

I see something similar happening now, not only with gun control but things like gay rights as well.

It's important to make sure your on the right side of history.

That's kind of a reach, isn't it? Time was when courtesy and respect for others was common as well.

As long as we're being racist here, do you know the history of gun control in the US? Remember, early on the Brits came to Lexington and Concord to seize private guns (we were against that then).......

The first gun laws of any note here came right after the civil war. Whites, who had reason to fear newly liberated slaves, instituted laws to keep them (the ex slaves) from owning guns. Laws like the purchase price high enough so the poor couldn't afford them. The origin of gun laws in the US is about as racist as it gets. Still feel the same way? Today they are still largely aimed and the poor and defenseless (still I think), those with means can get protection and guns of their own if they want. The evil 'Saturday Night Special' is an example. We don't hear so much about them these days now that 'Assault Weapons' and high capacity mags are the new boogie men. Heck, Ted Kennedy had his bodyguard busted for a new machine gun (not allowed to anyone), in an airport (long illegal) loaded with bullets he'd helped to write the law banning. Yep, illegal bullets in an illegal gun in an illegal place and he walked (and got his gun back I understand?).

Here on the West coast we didn't have slaves to fear. We had Mexicans, so we got knife laws instead. Still racist. The point is weapons control laws are almost always favored by those who personally don't want guns (switchblades, dirks, whatever), but also want to make that decision for everyone else.

What's the old joke? 'A conservative doesn't like guns he doesn't buy one; a liberal doesn't like guns he wants to forbid everyone else from buying one'? That works for me. Don't believe in God? Don't go to church. Don't take part. Just don't demand everyone share your views. Funny how those who lecture us on "tolerance" are not open to the idea when applied to them?

Dismiss those of us who disagree with you as being ignorant throwbacks if you wish, but the belief is strongly held by folks who consider themselves informed, logical, and moral. And the objective facts are on our side?

OF

 

[Gonzo]

I am an big fan of guns. I am also a big fan of little kids not being gunned down in class once or twice a month by a person who should not have had one.

Thankfully the train of progress doesn't care who is blocking the way.

 

[kellya86]

I am an big fan of guns. I am also a big fan of little kids not being gunned down in class once or twice a month by a person who should not have had one.

Thankfully the train of progress doesn't care who is blocking the way.

That's exactly my view too.

 

[OF]

I am also a big fan of little kids not being gunned down in class once or twice a month by a person who should not have had one.

So I think we both agree, letting kids get to guns or anything else dangerous is a bad plan. The fact that brain damaged people rush to a school where they know they'll get the headlines and have a lower risk of being opposed is hardly the fault of responsible gun owners.

I kinda like the idea of never speaking the names of the mass murderers......deny them every second for their 15 minutes of fame?

Addressing 'black hat' problems by disarming the white hats makes no sense to me. Do you think the last guns in town will be owned by black or white hats?

OF

 

[Gonzo]

So I think we both agree, letting kids get to guns or anything else dangerous is a bad plan. The fact that brain damaged people rush to a school where they know they'll get the headlines and have a lower risk of being opposed is hardly the fault of responsible gun owners.


OF

I think our definition of responsible gun owner may be a little different.

Having the laws suit your personal wants while ignoring the overall safety of others is irresponsible gun ownership IMO.

 

[grokit]

It's America not kosovo.

Realities can change.
Kosovo wasn't kosovo until it was; look at what's happening in paris right now.


edit:

The Swiss, with their high rates of social responsibility, own a LOT of assault rifles, right? What's the story there?

Great point. We are armed, and have the high ground.
Fuck off, and we will stay "neutral" !

 

[lwien]

What bugs the fuck out of me is that no matter how sensible and logical a proposed gun law may be, such as closing the loophole of guns being bought at gun shows without background checks, many gun enthusiasts and the NRA and the politicians that support them will scream..........."Don't pass this law for it's just another step towards them taking our guns away !!" as they fly their Don't Tread on Me flags.

Classic group paranoia run amok.

 

[Gonzo]

You'll never get my Glock lwein

 

[OF]

I think our definition of responsible gun owner may be a little different.

Having the laws suit your personal wants while ignoring the overall safety of others is irresponsible gun ownership IMO.

Perhaps. I sure don't advocate "ignoring the overall safety of others", in fact quite the opposite. You're surely not saying I do? Does 'closing the gunshow loophole' or banning ARs (which are basically never used for crimes) is in any way making those folks safer from the drug dealer doing drive by shootings or nut cases shooting up churches, schools and other "gun free zones"?

What bugs the fuck out of me is that no matter how sensible and logical a proposed gun law may be, such as closing the loophole of guns being bought at gun shows without background checks, many gun enthusiasts and the NRA and the politicians that support them will scream..........."Don't pass this law for it's just another step towards them taking our guns away !!" as they fly their Don't Tread on Me flags.

Classic group paranoia run amok.

Sorry you're bugged by it, but it seems you haven't been in the trenches? "Take what you can get, give nothing back wasn't invented by Capt. Jack Sparrow. It's gun grabber doctrine. Read their stuff. 'We can't get that yet, but.....'. They sit on their 'reasonable, common sense gun control' ideas until there's some innocent blood to dance in. Many gun owners see them as the enemy, trying to get the camel's nose in the tent.

You know a lot of effort was put into that 'gunshow loophole' bit. Only problem is bad guys don't buy guns that way? They don't pay full price for a 'cold' gun when a hot one is cheaper and easier to get. Criminals I guess see no reason to buy a legal gun to do illegal things with when illegal guns is the alternative.

It's also worth noting that the bad guys tend to use the same guns as the cops. Same models often. Not SNS (Saturday Night Specials), AW (or rifles of any sort really). They use modern handguns, those are the "weapons of choice" (don't you just love that expression? Makes the pol saying it sound like an expert). That's where the threat is, check the facts. 'cept you can't go for them first........

OF

 

[Gonzo]

I am not advocating banning assault rifles. I own one, that would be stupid.

I do however want everyone "Properly checked" before they are allowed to own one as well.

Also I am not promoting gun show changes to keep criminals from buying them. This is to stop the mentally ill from getting their hands on guns. I grew up in the ghetto, I know how criminals get guns.

That's the thing though, most conservatives hear what they want to hear on this issue. All the while shouting you'll never take my guns.

*Edit*

Never advocated changed to not advocating.

On this issue added to conservatives not listening. I see conservatives who I really respect say some pretty silly things when it comes to this issue.

Sorry mods for creating the extra gun thread. Completely forgot this one existed.

 

[CarolKing]

Do we need to allow the type of assault weapon that was used in the murder of 50 possible more people in the Night Club in Orlando available for folks to use? I see that it was an AR-15 the type murderers choose for mass shootings. They can kill more people quicker.

 

[cybrguy]

Do we need to allow the type of assault weapon that was used in the murder of 50 possible more people in the Night Club in Orlando available for folks to use? I see that it was an AR-15 the type murderers choose for mass shootings. They can kill more people quicker.

According to Florida authorities, 29-year-old Omar Mateen fatally shot at least 50 people at the gay nightclub Pulse, in Orlando, early this morning (June 12). The same semi-automatic AR-15 model he used was illegally modified and used to kill 14 and wound 21 in the San Bernardino shootings in late 2015. In 2012, it was also used in the murder of 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut.
At the Aurora massacre where 12 were killed and 70 injured it was the Smith and Wesson version, the M&P 15.

It's ok, tho. According to a poster above these guns are never used in crimes...

 

[HD Springer]

We not only need to make changes but we also need to uphold the laws we have now. This assault rifle along with its users will continue to kill people no matter what changes in the laws we make. And this is sickening.

 

[Nazz1]

I am going very old school here.....
iMHO
It us related to how children are raised today and in recent past (80's and on)
Mother does not stay home anymore. Disappearance of parental monitoring during growth. No more "whippings" when you are wrong.
Children don't "go outside and play" any more. Here they learned how to get along with others and how to apologize when they do wrong.
Video games are sort of okay but they should be balanced with real world activities. children should not be allowed to "live" in the game.
I see kids as young as 4 playing violence games and parents are continually allowing their kids to spend hours in the video world......which is sort of a form of brainwashing to me.

 

[flotntoke]

I am going very old school here.....
iMHO
It us related to how children are raised today and in recent past (80's and on)
Mother does not stay home anymore. Disappearance of parental monitoring during growth. No more "whippings" when you are wrong.
Children don't "go outside and play" any more. Here they learned how to get along with others and how to apologize when they do wrong.
Video games are sort of okay but they should be balanced with real world activities. children should not be allowed to "live" in the game.
I see kids as young as 4 playing violence games and parents are continually allowing their kids to spend hours in the video world......which is sort of a form of brainwashing to me.

Eh... maybe, maybe not. Plenty of studies out there that show this is the problem, and think there are a few that counter the belief.

Either way, the fact is that this asshole didn't walk into a club and kill people by throwing video games at them, nor have many of the psychos doing the killing followed the pattern you're talking about - certainly not the terrorist type we've seen more of recently. We don't yet have all of the background on this cold blooded killer, but I kind of doubt we are going to find that he fits the profile of growing up in the environment you lament above.

Al Qeada has been publishing nonsense in print and electronically for years now suggesting that the "faithful" who want to carry out jihad should take advantage of lax US gun laws to do just what this guy, and the LA shooters in December, did.

It's actually pretty amazing that there haven't been more instances of mass shootings just like this, and I fear our luck is starting to run out. An AR-15, a couple 30 round clips, and hundreds of rounds of ammo can all be picked up for less than $1,000 these days.

And really.... even if your belief that all mass shootings - or even any - are related to the problems you list, which would be easier? Correcting those problems AND fixing all the broken people that have issues now because of them, or further strengthening gun laws on assault weapons, and stepping up enforcement of the laws already on the books?

 

[CarolKing]

Sounds like this guy was all over the map as his prejudices against others. He hated gays and supposedly pledged his allegiance to ISIS.

He had some odd behavior at times and was anti social. There maybe some mental illness involved too. This isn't a cut and dried case at this point.

This isn't as simple as this guys mom had to work. It sounds like his dad is a bit flakey. They better keep an eye on him.

 

[gangababa]

Sounds like this guy was all over the map as his prejudices against others. He hated ..
odd behavior ... anti social ... mental illness ... isn't a cut a dried case at this point.
...

Reportedly his spouse (current, separated, former, ?) says he abused her.
For that reason alone, he should NEVER been able to buy guns .

It is as cut and dry as the deification of the gun in America!
MORE NRAterrorism; referencing another thread

People, Please! Start to understand that there are progressive and regressive people everywhere.
That is the issue! Not religion, not politics, etc.
We need know whose not polite conduct (not PC) is controlling a culture.

When warlord mentality takes over, regressives reign.
Progressives bring philosophers .
Look at what Republican rule wrought (anywhere*) and recognize the regressive.

Only the one way moral highway will win and we wisely need be calling out racists as a racists (any -ist or -ism); resisting and refusing regressive rants & rages. Reasonable people must not allow gunners' mentality to mangle human manners and morality.
Today there is no civilized justification in America for the ubiquitous availability of arms.

* Start with Kansas

 

[grokit]

I hate to be the regressive, but a "good guy with a gun" should have been there with that many people at risk, and would have been highly desirable in this situation. I was wondering what if any security was at this facility, and/or did this happen in a highly vulnerable gun-free zone like the san bernadino shootings?

 

[CarolKing]

I think you are right @grokit unfortunetly. This guy had a gun that shot bullets out so fast.

The NRA has such a tight grip on politics in the Republican Party. It's like we live in 2 Americas the sane and insane states and we know who they are.

The only way to stop their control is to get the majority of Republicans out of office.

Some have said this guy shouldn't have been able to get a gun which is true he had a few red flags due to some of the incidences he was involved in. He had a domestic violence issue with his girl friend or wife. He was investigated by the FBI a couple times.

He worked as a security guard, he would qualify for a gun with his job you would think.

 

[1DMF]

RIP to those in Orlando, just heard the news.

It also goes to show no amount of foreign policy and wall building can stop home grown terrorists.

I don't know what the answer is , I just hope you find one before more innocent people die needlessly.

 

[flotntoke]

I hate to be the regressive, but a "good guy with a gun" should have been there with that many people at risk, and would have been highly desirable in this situation. I was wondering what if any security was at this facility, and/or did this happen in a highly vulnerable gun-free zone like the san bernadino shootings?

It was in Florida! I think it may have been a gun free zone in that it was a bar. Probably not a bad thing given Florida's lax legal opinion's on stand your ground laws. See: "George Zimmerman walks" for more info.

 

[gangababa]

I hate to be the regressive, but a "good guy with a gun" should have been there with that many people at risk, and would have been highly desirable in this situation. I was wondering what if any security was at this facility, and/or did this happen in a highly vulnerable gun-free zone like the san bernadino shootings?

The pulse was a place with only guys, not guns like at Fort Hood or Fairchild Air Force Base
The Pulse in Orlando did have an armed off duty police officer* working as security on site.
The good guys with many guns stayed outside for three hours after they arrived.

Edit: Just heard the on-site, uniformed armed officer* retreated and awaited for reinforcement (2 minutes).

 

[CarolKing]

Interesting that the AR-15 is flying off the shelves today, it figures people's mentality never ceases to amaze me in a negative way. Folks are so worried their guns will be taken away. You never know when you might need to kill something really quick in large numbers.

The AR-15 stock went up too.