WTF Is Wrong With America And Gun Control?

[HD Springer]

We are twisted sort in America. And the loudest people that hate guns and the loudest ones that love guns scream so much it keeps those of us that are moderately for or against from expressing our views.
And the way the extreme gun lovers react with their pocket books speaks volumes on why we can't make any changes for the betterment of our society. IMO of course.

 

[CarolKing]

One person dies every 17 minutes in America due to gun violence. Are we willing to put up with these statistics? This is fucking CRAZY!!

 

[Stevenski]

John Howard is a polarizing man but the dude had serious balls. He was the newly elected Liberal (Republican) PM & decided to ban guns after the Port Arthur massacre. Way to alienate your supporters but he knew he was right to do so & fuck everyone if you are right.

It cost a fortune but the numbers don't lie. Zero mass shootings since. Zero. We still had gun crime & the underworld/bikie wars had plenty of shooting but all that stuff is targeted of sorts. Bad people hurting bad people, not psychos hurting innocents.

Well worth 6 minutes @CarolKing & Australia is proof that it can be done & it is that easy of you want to as a nation.

 

[gangababa]

These words from Stonekettle Station blog essay ask a question that could as well be in the religion thread or 2016 Presidential candidate thread: http://www.stonekettle.com/2016/06/the-return-of-tail-gunner-joe.html

"Who decides what this nation will become? Who decides what legacy we will leave our children?
Who decides how America will be remembered by history? Who decides if we will be nation of tolerance and freedom, an example to the world, a shining city upon the hill…
...or whether we will be a nation of barbed wire and secret police"

"Tell me, why is it that a religion which preaches intolerance every single day in the name of their deity, whose adherents embrace violent nationalism and daily wave their guns and clamor for the elimination of those not like them, who daily declares their intention to burn down the elected government of the United States and replace it with a religious theocracy more to their liking, why is that religion American simply because it's Christian"
...
"Don't you dare try to tell me that's not what a significant percentage of homegrown religious extremists are saying. That's exactly what they are saying. Every. Single. Day. All you have to do is look at their Facebook pages and their websites. All you have to do listen to the various militias. All you have to do is tune into Franklin Graham or Bryan Fischer, or drop by a Trump rally. Hell, a bunch of Mormon fanatics just took up arms against the rest of us in the name of their God while Christian extremists cheered them on and rallied to their defense -- or have you forgotten Malheur already?"
...
"This guy, this asshole who murdered 49 people in Orlando? That guy? That guy was as American as it comes....
(the Orlando murderer) "raged against gay people just exactly the same as every pinched faced conservative Christian preacher currently spewing hate and intolerance from his pulpit. No different than Pat Robertson or John Hagee. No different from the politicians currently rushing bathroom bills through the various state legislatures. No different than Kim Davis, conservative hero. There is no difference in rhetoric or the target of their hate whatsoever."

(the Orlando murderer) "loved guns. He saw guns as power, power over others, power to impose his will so that he didn't have to suffer those he despised. So he didn't have to compromise. Guns, for him, were freedom, liberty, and a final solution to his hatred. How is this different from those who took over Malheur? Who threaten daily to march on Washington with their guns in the name of their god? Because he pulled the trigger? Because he was actually willing to shoot down his fellow Americans? Look at any Christian militia Facebook page and tell me how they are any different. ...You going to tell me this guy wasn’t an American"

Who decides what's American?

"Each and every one of you. You Americans. If you don't speak up, you decided.
If you turn a blind eye to hate and intolerance in your religion without public and vocal challenge, you decided.
If you allow attacks on your neighbors verbal or physical, you decided.
If you allow the politicians and the preachers to decide who can and cannot use the bathroom, who can get married, you decided.
If you allow 33,000 Americans to die every year from gun violence without protest, you've decided.
If you don't vote, for whatever reason, you've decided."

 

[CarolKing]

God speaks about loving everyone. That's what my mother always told me. Folks interpret the bible the way they want it to sound like. If they want it to spew hate folks will interpret it that way.

I think that many religions unfortunately teach hate and intolerance of people.

This killer probably had some mental illness that was in the mix. He took steroids too. I wonder if that could have played a small part in all this?

Above I stated that every 17 min people die due to some type of gun violence in America. That is an astounding number. If you are on a no fly list you shouldn't be able to get a gun. That seems to make sense to me but not the NRA.

Folks can't let the NRA to bully us into crazy idiotic gun laws. No AR-15 rifles either.

 

[grokit]

In his own words;
Jesus didn't come to make peace, he came with a sword

Check it out, it's in the book of matthew.

 

[gangababa]

In his own words;
Jesus didn't come to make peace, he came with a sword

Check it out, it's in the book of matthew.

I can't check it out, because I do not know Aramaic or the Greek or Roman of the time.
I do know that the perceived truths in the current English language Bible result from poor translations and 2000 years of 'inbreed' theological brainwashing.*
Mary was a young maiden; not a virgin.

Even in accurate translations of words, the meanings (especially the connotations of words) may have changed considerably.
Much Biblical belief (today) is nonsense and WRONG due to mistranslation, lost cultural references and bad logic.

Next, even if the words are correct, what is the total meaning in context?
The Vedic scriptures also bring a sword (so to speak) to cut through illusion, confusion and and other ignorance that lead people to think that their own small font of knowledge and their own strong desires and prejudices actually reflect ultimate reality. The Vedic scriptures do not claim to bring peace or make peace, they claim to reveal the pre-existing true nature of the "I AM" as shanti (peace, calm, undisturbed).

In the past few days, after Orlando there have been Christian leaders praising the murders in Orlando and spewing nonsense and hate, claiming that God wants gays dead.

Sacramento, California*
Tempe, Arizona
Comments from people taught by bad pastors
USA legislators lead anti-gay efforts

*Happily I admit that the crazy people are a minority, but they none-the-less are too-little pushed back against. The Sacramento Baptist minister should be condemned and kicked out of Baptist organizations.
The Westboro Baptist church ought to be so totally ostracized that the Phelps family can find no one willing to sell them food.

 

[mephisto]

^ I appreciate your opinion/view of the Christian theology. I agree that there are too many outspoken preachers, imams, swamis, ministers, bishops, deacons and pastors. That is what free speech is all about.
Apparently, these inflammatory speakers are reaching their intended audience. It is our reaction that dictates change, peace, tolerance, diversity, respect, compassion, and kindness.

By the way, did you know Mary personally?

 

[grokit]

I do know that the perceived truths in the current English language Bible result from poor translations and 2000 years of 'inbreed' theological brainwashing.*

Agreed, but I am still quoting the bible that dominates our world today.

 

[gangababa]

False prophets reaching intended audiences. Hmm? I wonder why people can be seduced by hatred and anger?

Consider. How can Daesh radicalize anyone in America who does not go looking for their online propaganda?
Or differently, why haven't my American experiences radicalized me to get a gun and shoot up the Westboro Baptist Church? I know they are not Christian; Jesus gave me a sword and those folks make me plenty angry. I suspect the world would be a better place if people promoting hatred were eliminated.

I have seen (too often) links from (so called) reputable news sources that I know would show me the gory head-less details of murderous political rage and hatred.
I never go there because I know that 'GIGO'.

When one dines on destructive emotions, one eats dirt.
It can be difficult in real world choices to know which decision will cause the least disturbance (ahimsa). We can not foresee all of the results that follow from our actions.

I know however that I can recognize when people are presenting vacuous, regressisve, excluding, logically self-defeating, hypocritical, lying us-vs-them arguments.

About guns, when the right to life* and the right to gun ownership conflict, I will not choose the gun.
Everyone dies; no choice. Killing is a choice.
Answering my own earlier question, I do not get a gun because I accept the logic of not doing onto others, that which I reject for myself.

I know not all gun use is for the purpose of killing.
Oh, except for war.
And hunting of course.
Or perhaps threatening to kill.
Only interested in target practice; that is developing the proficiency to kill.
Collecting; delight in the art and machinery of weapons for killing.
Manufacturing, buying and selling because it is a business; sorry more guns is not summum bonum.
(Would Buddha have considered guns to be 'right livelihood'?)

Self defense? OK. Everyone gets long rifle muskets because that is what the founding fathers wanted.

*The 'right to life' is not explicitly spelled out in the constitution.
Accepting that understanding, the 2nd amendment therefore is controlling.
OK, but now explain to the forced-birther that abortion is not a problem when there is no 'right to life'

If the 'right to life' is guaranteed by the constitution, then guns** can be regulated (which is not infringement) for the protection of the prior right to life.
Without life, obviously no rights.
One must choose between 'right to life' and 'right to take life'.
Who thinks the founding fathers (had they been able to foresee the results of their actions) would have supported the 2nd amendment? To think they would suggests they were sociopaths or idiots?

**You have the right to a gun. Society has the right to control what kinds of guns society allows.
The second amendment is product of society; it doesn't produce society.

Eventually there will be either guns and no society- rule by war-lords playing 'king-of-the-hill' crap.
Or civilization will survive and the 2nd amendment will be gone. NRAterrorism is run-amok in America.
More than 50 have been killed and three times the Orlando number injured by guns in America since Orlando's 2nd amendment bullet-bloodied-body business.

 

[mestizo]

I can't check it out, because I do not know Aramaic or the Greek or Roman of the time.
I do know that the perceived truths in the current English language Bible result from poor translations and 2000 years of 'inbreed' theological brainwashing.*
Mary was a young maiden; not a virgin.

Even in accurate translations of words, the meanings (especially the connotations of words) may have changed considerably.
Much Biblical belief (today) is nonsense and WRONG due to mistranslation, lost cultural references and bad logic.

Next, even if the words are correct, what is the total meaning in context?
The Vedic scriptures also bring a sword (so to speak) to cut through illusion, confusion and and other ignorance that lead people to think that their own small font of knowledge and their own strong desires and prejudices actually reflect ultimate reality. The Vedic scriptures do not claim to bring peace or make peace, they claim to reveal the pre-existing true nature of the "I AM" as shanti (peace, calm, undisturbed).

In the past few days, after Orlando there have been Christian leaders praising the murders in Orlando and spewing nonsense and hate, claiming that God wants gays dead.

Sacramento, California*
Tempe, Arizona
Comments from people taught by bad pastors
USA legislators lead anti-gay efforts

*Happily I admit that the crazy people are a minority, but they none-the-less are too-little pushed back against. The Sacramento Baptist minister should be condemned and kicked out of Baptist organizations.
The Westboro Baptist church ought to be so totally ostracized that the Phelps family can find no one willing to sell them food.

Do you know the language the Vedic scriptures were written in?
And if you do, how can we trust you?
You should apply the same argument you made about the Jewish/Christian scriptures to yours, never mind all the advances and studies in linguistics that we have had over the years.
How can I believe a historian if I wasn't there, well you cross reference others, same thing with scriptures, as far as I'm concerned the oldest known biblical scriptures known to men are the Dead Sea Scrolls,?those should be a good place to start and compare modern translations don't you think?
And the argument that you can only understand the Qur'an in Arabic, then the language to blame should be the Arabic not English, because I see we can communicate well in it, so who's language fault is it?

 

[CarolKing]

Most of us have been accustomed to the mass gun violence in America. The large amount of people gunned down at our schools, place of worship, theaters and other public venues are out of control. Our local schools are doing lock down drills for intruders with a gun on a monthly basis. We are numb to the feelings we first felt after the Columbine HS shootings. Two teenage boys shot up their school. That's been many years ago and it continues to happen.

The types of guns used are those used in combat. They are used to shoot a lot of people really fast. It's easier to buy a high powered rifle than it is to get a drivers license which seems pretty insane to me. The NRA has a strangle hold on the Republican Party. The only way to get any reform is to vote these ass holes out of office. I think most Americans have come to the end of the rope here and need something done.

Whether this was because he was crazy or if was it was a radical terrorist it doesn't matter. 49 people are dead and another 50 are injured. Every time one of these horrific events happens it chips away at our sense of safety and well being.

The NRA doesn't want any gun control or any restrictions far as guns are concerned. Common sense control doesn't exist in the eyes of the NRA. What purpose is an automatic high powered rifle type gun other than to kill people?
You don't know who the terrorists are most of the time until they kill people. They will be using our lax gun laws to their advantage. Who goes hunting with an AR-15?

The Republicans need to grow a set of balls and tell the NRA to fuck off. Politicians take the NRAs money for favors while voting on gun laws.

Edit
Thank you Senator Chris Murphy for your 15 hour filibuster. Thank you for shaming the United States Senate.
Use some common some sense: "no fly no buy" At the very least.

 

[CBDFarm]

 

[Joel W.]

To be clear, a stock AR-15 has semi automatic action which means one trigger pull, one shot fired. You have to let up the trigger to fire again. It is not an automatic machine gun.

It is also extremely illegal to modify an AR-15 into a fully automatic weapon, like this asshat did (if he did).

I still have my pre-ban AR-15 and I don't use it to hunt ever. It is one of my home defensive guns that I hope I still never need. If they did a buy back program in my area, I would consider sending it down the road if I knew it was going to be destroyed. Not many AR owners probably think like me though.

The AR-15's are popular because the rifle was inexpensive, built on a reliable battle tested platform. It also uses ammunition that was cheap, reliable, accurate and easy to find anywhere.

In a post apocalyptic scenario, it is the grab and go gun for the preppers.

Edit: Either way, both semi and full auto rifles can shoot very fast, so it's not a huge distinction I guess.

Just talking about banning guns, drives gun sales through the roof.
Asking people to turn them in may get some guns off the street, but not from the crazies/evil fucks.
Taking guns by force may get more off the street, but I fear it will make more crazies dig in deeper.

Cash buyback would work the best I think but, I don't pretend to understand WTF is wrong with me/us/them.

 

[TeeJay1952]

@CBDFarm I used ti say all human endeavours were doomed to failure because of the human element. How can we eliminate that? O yeah, Guns!

 

[cybrguy]

Thank you Senator Chris Murphy for your 15 hour filibuster. Thank you for shaming the United States Senate.
Use some common some sense: "no fly no buy" At the very least.

I thank Senator Murphy and his allies for the effort. Unfortunately we have learned that the Senate and especially the House have become incapable of feeling shame or any other super ego generated sense of right and wrong. The republican party has chosen to run and elect people who only want to weaken and cripple government in ways that keep it from working for anyone but the richest in our society.

They have let any moral compass that tended to direct it and, btw, was "based on the christian principles they claim to live by", drop to the wayside like one would discard spoiled meat or dairy. The gun manufacturers are HUGE money machines that feed the republican party's greed and narcissism (yes, Donald has company) and complete lack of concern for their own constituency.

As long as the republican party is only a shell of its former self, and exists only to serve the rich and powerful, America is stuck in the steaming mosh pit of anger, hostility, and bigotry that Trump represents so well. Only a complete blowout of the republican party in November has a chance of making reasonable change come any time soon. Anything short of that is going to look frighteningly similar to what we are seeing now...

 

[lwien]

And in the spirit of this thread, we have FOX NEW'S suggestion for fathers day gifts........

"Doesn’t your dad deserve better than a tie?"

Ya, instead, get him something that will get his macho juices flowing..........
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/06/17/4-top-tactical-gifts-for-fathers-day.html?intcmp=hpff

 

[CarolKing]

Many work places have to do drills in case of a intruder with a gun, bomb or any other type of weapon. I was at a large clinic just this morning and they do drills there too. We live in such a violent society. 10 or 15 years ago we didn't have to do all this. I want to live in a society where we don't have to worry about violence all the time. It's out of control. Most is home grown terror.

 

[grokit]

They like us scared, because we're easier to control. I remember "duck & cover" drills from when they wanted us to be afraid of nuclear missiles in the 1960s. Nukes are old news; now we have terrorism.

 

[CarolKing]

At my grandkids school they don't even do earthquake drills anymore. It's the intruder on campus type drills. The teacher takes them to a corner of the classroom away from the door and they hide in a corner with the lights off and the windows are covered the door is locked. They do this until the all clear on the intercom.

 

[gangababa]

Most of the NOT italicized words below are not mine, but rather taken and rearranged to express the gist of this article;
GOP won’t stop terror suspects from owning guns because right-wing nuts are a threat — and their base
The author is saying Republican politicians are beholden to some of the (my words) most ignorant and unbalanced voters in America (includes illogical thinkers and deniers of fact).

A lot of conservatives believe the Second Amendment gives them a right to use firearms as political expression.
Many right-wing conservatives believe their Second Amendment rights kick in when their First Amendment talents fail — and they stoke their fears of government overreach with paranoid conspiracy theories that sometimes resemble mental illness.

Those conspiracy theories have moved from the political fringes and the bumper sticker rack at gun shops, where they’ve existed in some form for decades*, to the conservative mainstream during the Obama administration.

Right-wing conservatives like to imagine their trusty gun will protect them from a tyrannical threat that doesn’t really exist — and the firearms industry happily indulges them with grim fantasies.

Even Republican lawmakers have argued that the Second Amendment grants them the right to point guns at law enforcement officers.
Michelle Fiore, a Nevada assemblywoman who backed the Bundy militants in Oregon and at their family’s ranch lost her reelection bid said, “Once you point your firearm at me, I’m sorry, then it becomes self-defense, Whether you’re a stranger, a bad guy, or an officer, and you point your gun at me and you’re gonna shoot me and I have to decide whether it’s my life or your life, I choose my life.”
Providentially, she lost her reelection bid.

* Read the links below for explanation of the political-propagada lying of the NRA et al, that overturned 200 years of established American gun policy with the false argument that the words "A well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state,..." are meaningless.

Link Link Link Link Link Link

 

[CarolKing]

Trump's suggestion is for more people to be armed so they can protect themselves. Might be true on some occasion. It would depend on who was armed? Don't want them shooting the innocent, especially in a crowded dark bar or night club.

The police have to deal with the public that use military type equipment/weapons.

 

[yogoshio]

The police have to deal with the public that use military type equipment/weapons.

Aren't these the same police shooting unarmed civilians, choking out medical patients, and abusing their captives? Isn't that tyranny?

We are discussing an issue that is only relevant after the dismantling of the mental health structure (that was incredibly abusive) but actually kept these megalomaniacs in a safe place. As late as 1960s my dad could order a truly automatic (and not the "automatic" that people keep calling the AR-15, which is no more automatic than a pistol) machine gun with a check in the mail and nothing else.

It's not the availability of guns that has changed the scene, its the culture and the lack of mental health oversight. I honestly feel our society has become so afraid of telling someone they might have a problem that we don't say anything at all, and then we all pay the consequences for it.

 

[grokit]

Bottom line, it was a mistake to let the ban on assault weapons expire.
Now gun rights are being attacked disproportionately
The politics shouldn't be so hard on this one !

 

[mephisto]

Thanks @yogoshio for bringing up that point, I agree fully. We can stand back and throw rocks at each others' belief systems and make zero forward progress at all. As a compassionate SPECIES we need to all walk the same path to healing. Walking the path seems not the challenge, rather finding it.