WTF Is Wrong With America And Gun Control?
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howie105
Well-Known Member
I am hopeful that the Hearing Protection Act passes too, and sound suppressors become more easily available. I can see the Mosssberg Shockwave with a suppressor being the house gun ticket for some folks For myself its a bit too late but the Begals will be better off.
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OF
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the kind words. I wouldn't put too much stock in it, it's entirely possible you caught us on a good day.
Likely even.
Amen. Too much paranoia for now (where still under Hoover and the mob thinking......). I understand in places like France once you fight through the paper and get permission to buy a .22 rifle, the clerk automatically asks which silencer you'd like. To annoy one's neighbors is rude. Here too.
Sad confession, in recent years I've turned to the dark side, airguns. Serious airguns, lots of fun. Suppressors are built into most of the best. It's just so natural, even when there's very little noise to start with.
I hope the effort works of course, such things are long overdue by objective measure. For sure it has my full support from several angles. But I put more hope/faith in an attitude change in the masses. The image of guns and their owners has to change in lots of otherwise good folks believing the lies (like 'you'll shoot a family member instead') spread by the gun grabbers. We need to get facts out to shine light on the propaganda. Educate them, perhaps then they won't fear as much?
FWIW, I think we may see some useful changes here starting in about 20 minutes when Trump gets to use his phone and pen.........
Typing with fingers crossed, best wishes to all. All, those who agree and those who don't?
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grokit
well-worn member
When an ultraconservative governor was running my state, he changed the concealed-carry permits to everybody, no training/qualifying test or registration required. The year before I had shelled out $100 for my training/qualifying test, and $100 for the permit. The state lost revenue, and imo invited chaos.
It's a nice souvenir, I converted it into a refrigerator magnet
Too far though?
It's a nice souvenir, I converted it into a refrigerator magnet
Too far though?
Tranquility
Well-Known Member
The "talk" has nothing to do with disparaging people with mental illness, but has to do with the statutes involved with them. We can argue as to if if it is good a person who "has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution" becomes a prohibited person, but I haven't heard many argue for eliminating the restriction.
I challenge the very definition of "right" when used in two different ways in the same sentence. Government can guarantee it will not restrict people from keeping and bearing arms. It cannot guarantee, no matter how much it wants to, clean water for everyone. Should it be something we expect from government? Sure; or not, depending on your theory.
The Constitution which enumerates our rights given us by God is a LIMITING document. One does not limit the government and hope for clean water for all.
Yet, we're told gun violence is a national emergency and something must be done. Which is it?
Maybe because you don't look for it? How many stories are out there right now regarding progressives who are going out and buying a firearm because they are so afraid in this new environment. Have you seen ANY articles from conservatives bemoaning that fact? Look to the supporters of the Pink Pistols. A group formed to help LGBT Americans protect themselves after the terrorist attack at The Pulse. The NRA has many different outreach programs out to get kids involved in the sport of shooting. With that, there are specific committees of outreach to minority communities.
Is it because the NRA are the most wonderfully non-racist, sexist, etc.ist of people? Of course not. They recognize the more gun owners out there, the bigger the constituency advocating gun rights.
At the same time, look to statistics for the harm done by firearms. Distinguish between the problem in black and in white America. One group has over twice the firearm violence per capita than the other. One group seems to kill themselves and the other kills others. But for the theory of rights, a compelling case could be made to prevent black ownership. (Just as Democrats and the KKK did in the south.) I don't advocate that as I believe in rights--including equal protection. Good old rights. Still working after all these years.
OF
Well-Known Member
It's a nice souvenir, I converted it into a refrigerator magnet
Fun idea. You could also make a door knocker out of it........give the bad guys the idea the house next door might be a safer bet?
Universal CCW without restrictions......there must have been a HUGE crime wave like the libs always warn us about, right? How did your family fare in that?
I had a friend years back who got his car broken into twice a few weeks apart. Lost change in the ashtray and other similar low value stuff. Lots of that in the neighborhood. So he got a couple of Guns and Ammo (a popular gun mag of the day, picking out ones with big handguns on the cover. And he bought a car alarm sticker, no alarm, just the sticker for the window. He then always left the mags on the back seat, with at least one 'face up'. No more problems, they avoided his car, kept after the neighbors. The cops finally caught a pack of kids........
Predators are a strange and IMO interesting deal. Those who prey on their fellows this way have a lot in common with big cats, snakes, Politicians and other predators. They have to 'kill to eat' or at least continue to find fresh prey to stay alive. Most important here, they cannot afford to get injured in the effort. Think about that, a lion with a bad paw will starve. If they can't 'hunt', they are toast. The guy that 'makes his living' stealing stuff or invading occupied homes for money and property can't afford the risk of getting shot. Even the drug addicts understand this I'm told, all but the very very few are risk adverse at that level. Most (but not all) will flee when confronted. They just won't tell their friends (such as they are).
As the Germans say, "Foxes prefer rabbits with no claws".
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grokit
well-worn member
Did you catch the other story buried in that article?
"...a senior administration official said Trump will also quietly sign a bill to undo an Obama administration rule that blocked the sale of firearms to individuals who receive Social Security benefits due to a mental disability. The measure, which barred anyone on Social Security with a mental disability who needs a third party to manage their finances from purchasing a gun, was crafted in the wake of the 2012 Sandy Hook massacre as part of measures pushed by Obama to tighten background checks."
This political insanity (pun intended) is cross-posted from the weird news thread
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CarolKing
Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
It would help if crazy people couldn't get guns. I know this shouldn't be political but the gun manufacturers are in the pockets of our lawmakers. Basically there are very few gun laws in Nevada.
America is sad for all the people affected in this tragedy. I hope there won't be copy cat shootings. When things like this happen it gives other crazy nuts ideas.
America is sad for all the people affected in this tragedy. I hope there won't be copy cat shootings. When things like this happen it gives other crazy nuts ideas.
TeeJay1952
Well-Known Member
We will never be able to stop some poor soul from going over the edge but we can mitigate the amount of damage they can cause.
Pistols and shotguns for all. Assault weapons should be kept in State Armory. Assault weapons operators should go through additional rounds of back check and be in militia.
People are correct in saying that you have right to protect yourself but society must be protected from WMD and the insane and frustrated among us.
Pistols and shotguns for all. Assault weapons should be kept in State Armory. Assault weapons operators should go through additional rounds of back check and be in militia.
People are correct in saying that you have right to protect yourself but society must be protected from WMD and the insane and frustrated among us.
howie105
Well-Known Member
Many successful solutions on gun policy exist around the world and we can't craft one here that works, I am not buying it. The issue has been politicized to the point that for many its just a tool to raise bucks and votes for different sides. So like many things the individual can ignore the guys that have failed at their jobs, tend to their own needs and do what they know is right for their particular situation.
OF
Well-Known Member
Sorry, your basic premise is wrong. Yes, there are lots of more restrictive gun policies in the world. In fact most all other countries have them? Europe, for example, basically prohibits it's citizens almost completely, right? So they should have better experience with such mass shootings? 'cept they don't. Not by a long shot. Since they prohibit AR15s (semi auto), the bad guys bring their own m16s or AK (full auto). Think about that. Lack of gun shows didn't stop them, in fact they brought more lethal guns. Mass shooting by machine guns is the norm for them, basically unheard of here.
You have, perhaps, some examples of these "successful solutions" for the discussion?
Still we're now like 14th on the list for the last 50 years or so. Nothing to be proud of, but let's keep it in perspective. European citizens have twice the risk of mass shootings we do. Twice. Despite much more restrictive laws:
https://crimeresearch.org/2017/01/w...blic-shootings-are-outside-the-united-states/
The FACTS are 19 of the top 20 and 45 of the top 50 mass shootings (four or more in public) did NOT happen in the US. Or were at the first of the year. It sounds so logical when someone comes up with the 'obvious truth' that the Despicable types are too simple minded and/or filled with hate to understand but it just ain't so.
As Regan said '......it's not so much they are ignorant of the facts, it's that so much of what they know isn't so'.
It's a poor craftsman that blames the tool. People kill using guns, or knives, or cars, or box cutters, or a gallon of gasoline. The tool is not the issue as much as the act. Take away guns and they rent or steal a truck or kitchen knife. Given the will, evil will find a tool. Unfortunately.
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howie105
Well-Known Member
I am not anti gun I have shot all my life in service and as a civilian so if I left you with that impression I apologize. The point I was trying to make is that we as a nation have allowed the gun question to be turned into a tool for politicians which means resolution is going to be difficult but we should be able to find a working solution if we want. What the solution would look like I don't know but I do know that what both sides of the issue have done to this point isn't working. Sorry for the confusion.
I do not own a gun. But I can understand why people want them. Many folks have Gun Acquisition Syndrome, just like I have VAS for vapes. Most gun deaths are suicide (60%), and my understanding, 3.4 % of gun deaths are by long gun or rifle, and that includes hunting accidents. So to really affect gun deaths, you have to eliminate revolvers and hand guns. I just don't see that happening.
StormyPinkness
Rhymenocerous ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ
Comparing stats for ALL OF EUROPE (50 countries) vs just the US (1 country) seems... weird to me. I guess it makes sense for the chart being short, but that part seems like comparing apples and a fruit basket to me.
It's weird mass shootings are more frequent in Europe than the US, but their gun violence overall is way lower in a lot of their countries like the UK.
OF
Well-Known Member
Maybe not so off base? There's a lot of variation in each of those lists of 50 'states' WRT to gun laws. But in general Europe is on a whole different level. While years back places like Belgium placed 'in the range' with us perhaps, now they too have registration, licensing (with fees of course), prohibitions on 'military calibers', almost complete lack of citizens owning handguns and so on. I think it's a valid point for Lott to make. Not only isn't there a "successful solution" there but it seems overall to be a more dangerous place to live WRT mass shootings. Copying what they're doing hoping for better results than we enjoy seems unfounded.
It's true that (once again, looking at the tool.....) gun violence is more common here, guns are in half the households after all, unlike say the UK where even traditional shotguns are gone? However, not to worry, British citizens are at a much bigger per capita risk from serious assault with hands and feet. I guess folks in the UK have more hands and feet than we do here?
I think it's deeper than most consider. At a base, cultural level. The Bible doesn't record the tool of the first murder, only that Cain slew his brother Able. Not important enough? Those who would do violence will usually seek out a good tool for that job. Consider dear Chicago. No more guns than Los Angeles and NYC. Or more citizens. But gun related murders they have aplenty........ More than LA and NYC combined? It's kinda fun that the experience of the 50 states in the US is those with the most restrictive gun laws have the biggest 'gun problems'. Which is cause and which effect is left as an exercise for the students.
It's also worth considering that most of our gun violence is drug related (close to 60% IIRC), we even go so far as to (sometimes) list drug dealers shooting each other over business disputes as 'family' violence since they knew each other for statistical purposes? At this point I bet you've got a much bigger chance of being killed by a drunk driver (or typical cell phone user......) than being shot down in public by a random stranger (nutcase, drunk, accident prone or terrorist). If we subtract suicides and accidental gun deaths (and look only at murders) Opioid overdose is a much bigger risk these days. Think about how those who want to ban guns include suicides by gun in the gun death/danger numbers? It's like half the total deaths (more than murders). Likewise they love to consider 19 YO drug dealers as 'children' victims of gun violence. One might even call it 'Fake news' I guess, but the tradition goes way back, before Fake News became all the rage.
In the end, I'm still in favor of the single mother living in a more dangerous world than mine having the option of responsibly owning a gun to protect her family as she sees fit. Her call, not mine. Those she feels threatened by certainly aren't worried about following any laws that don't suit them. I want her to have that choice. I believe I'm not alone in that.
Regards and best wishes to all.
OF
Little Bill
Oldest stoner on FC
@CarolKing actually the lawmakers are in the pockets of the gun manufacturers; but we knew what you meant.
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CarolKing
Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
@Little Bill Thank you for catching that.
It's common sense nobody should be able to modify their guns to make machine guns that they use in a war zone. Our lawmakers need to do something. The states need to have similar laws. I believe in states rights but not with machine guns. People should be able to own guns if they aren't nuts or a violent type of person. Like somebody that threatens people.
This guy that killed 58 people didn't appear to have a mental disability beforehand but he shouldn't have been able to have the type of guns that he had.
I'm curious, dont those guns make a lot of noise being shot off? It took them over an hour to locate the shooter. I was surprised that other folks on the same floor didn't call the hotel security? Maybe there was a silencer on the guns?
It's common sense nobody should be able to modify their guns to make machine guns that they use in a war zone. Our lawmakers need to do something. The states need to have similar laws. I believe in states rights but not with machine guns. People should be able to own guns if they aren't nuts or a violent type of person. Like somebody that threatens people.
This guy that killed 58 people didn't appear to have a mental disability beforehand but he shouldn't have been able to have the type of guns that he had.
I'm curious, dont those guns make a lot of noise being shot off? It took them over an hour to locate the shooter. I was surprised that other folks on the same floor didn't call the hotel security? Maybe there was a silencer on the guns?
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lwien
Well-Known Member
I wonder if that's even possible with all the heat that's generated by full auto weapons.
crawdad
floatin
silencer will only make it slightly less loud, it does not reduce to whisper levels.
while i agree that a fully automatic weapon that can pinpoint long distances and effectively wipe out a large crowd of people in short order could be banned with rational justification i think it takes a focus on the situation to understand that these terrible incidents do stem from a social disgust that our society is going through. even though these incidents are perhaps few when compared and are not representative of the general population (gun owning or not) i feel legal action in form of policy and laws or even honorable federal acts that outline procedures for during and after such crimes will ultimately not address the issues that our own divisiveness have created.
as an attentive big picture optimist i cant help but to connect the dots that are all over our daily news tickers, still. as our politicians and law makers find ways to address this and our media outlets spew their consensus on the subject for us to take sides on we all ought to find new ways to talk to each other and allow our society to be representative of all in hopes of reconnecting with each other...perhaps ive wandered too far in the clouds again.
while i agree that a fully automatic weapon that can pinpoint long distances and effectively wipe out a large crowd of people in short order could be banned with rational justification i think it takes a focus on the situation to understand that these terrible incidents do stem from a social disgust that our society is going through. even though these incidents are perhaps few when compared and are not representative of the general population (gun owning or not) i feel legal action in form of policy and laws or even honorable federal acts that outline procedures for during and after such crimes will ultimately not address the issues that our own divisiveness have created.
as an attentive big picture optimist i cant help but to connect the dots that are all over our daily news tickers, still. as our politicians and law makers find ways to address this and our media outlets spew their consensus on the subject for us to take sides on we all ought to find new ways to talk to each other and allow our society to be representative of all in hopes of reconnecting with each other...perhaps ive wandered too far in the clouds again.
Tranquility
Well-Known Member
The evil man was a pilot and has been reported to own two planes. How many would have died if he crashed one into the crowds?
Clever phrases that build straw men like what the GOP "insists" are designed to end discussion. I note, the "right" to keep and bear arms is specifically enumerated in the 2nd amendment and, like all other rights, is a limitation on government. You cannot limit government and produce medical care for all.
While there are certainly some who exercise their civil right to keep and bear arms by buying all the coolest arms out there (as analogous to VAS), I've never met one who's sole reason was to get the coolest things. At the end of the day, they have a basic philosophy behind the acquisition of those weapons that is reasonable and just. Just as, at the end of the day, VAS has a basic philosophy of getting the goodies from the material into the body.
I am well armed, moderately trained and adequately practiced. No one has suffered in any way from my possession of firearms. If, someday, I decide to shuffle off this mortal coil, odds are I will add to the highest measure of death statistics used to point out the "problem" of firearms. (If not, I'd probably do the helium contraption method.) I feel to be or not to be is my right and will not allow it to be decided for me by others.
While there are many philosophical reasons (some subtle) why I believe the civil right of keeping and bearing arms is so important, I suspect the main one gets to the phrase, "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."
Finally, while I think many of those against the civil right of firearm possession have good intentions, you can't ignore the historical origins of how the Democrats fought so hard to prevent former slaves from possessing them. Just as abortion has racist roots, so does gun control. There are always going to be people in power who want to take away the civil rights of others. Deciding if their reasons are just and good or evil and nefarious is a political question. When I look at that political question through the lens of my natural cynicism, motivations become clear to me. As to if cynicism is a good lens to use in looking at things I will leave as an exercise for the reader. I do know, the more cynical I become, the better I am at predicting things.
Clever phrases that build straw men like what the GOP "insists" are designed to end discussion. I note, the "right" to keep and bear arms is specifically enumerated in the 2nd amendment and, like all other rights, is a limitation on government. You cannot limit government and produce medical care for all.
While there are certainly some who exercise their civil right to keep and bear arms by buying all the coolest arms out there (as analogous to VAS), I've never met one who's sole reason was to get the coolest things. At the end of the day, they have a basic philosophy behind the acquisition of those weapons that is reasonable and just. Just as, at the end of the day, VAS has a basic philosophy of getting the goodies from the material into the body.
I am well armed, moderately trained and adequately practiced. No one has suffered in any way from my possession of firearms. If, someday, I decide to shuffle off this mortal coil, odds are I will add to the highest measure of death statistics used to point out the "problem" of firearms. (If not, I'd probably do the helium contraption method.) I feel to be or not to be is my right and will not allow it to be decided for me by others.
While there are many philosophical reasons (some subtle) why I believe the civil right of keeping and bearing arms is so important, I suspect the main one gets to the phrase, "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."
Finally, while I think many of those against the civil right of firearm possession have good intentions, you can't ignore the historical origins of how the Democrats fought so hard to prevent former slaves from possessing them. Just as abortion has racist roots, so does gun control. There are always going to be people in power who want to take away the civil rights of others. Deciding if their reasons are just and good or evil and nefarious is a political question. When I look at that political question through the lens of my natural cynicism, motivations become clear to me. As to if cynicism is a good lens to use in looking at things I will leave as an exercise for the reader. I do know, the more cynical I become, the better I am at predicting things.
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Interesting Opinion in today's (10/4/17) Washington Post
I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise.
Before I started researching gun deaths, gun-control policy used to frustrate me. I wished the National Rifle Association would stop blocking common-sense gun-control reforms such as banning assault weapons, restricting silencers, shrinking magazine sizes and all the other measures that could make guns less deadly.
Then, my colleagues and I at FiveThirtyEight spent three months analyzing all 33,000 lives ended by guns each year in the United States, and I wound up frustrated in a whole new way.
I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise.
Before I started researching gun deaths, gun-control policy used to frustrate me. I wished the National Rifle Association would stop blocking common-sense gun-control reforms such as banning assault weapons, restricting silencers, shrinking magazine sizes and all the other measures that could make guns less deadly.
Then, my colleagues and I at FiveThirtyEight spent three months analyzing all 33,000 lives ended by guns each year in the United States, and I wound up frustrated in a whole new way.
little maggie
Well-Known Member
"Distinguish between the problem in black and in white America. One group has over twice the firearm violence per capita than the other. One group seems to kill themselves and the other kills others. But for the theory of rights, a compelling case could be made to prevent black ownership. (Just as Democrats and the KKK did in the south.) I don't advocate that as I believe in rights--including equal protection. Good old rights. Still working after all these years."
Interesting. How many of the mass killings via guns in this country were done by black Americans or other non-whites?
I've been away from the area I grew up in- Rhode Island- for decades so it has probably changed. But I knew no one who had a gun nor whose family did. As soon as I moved to Colorado that changed.
Interesting. How many of the mass killings via guns in this country were done by black Americans or other non-whites?
I've been away from the area I grew up in- Rhode Island- for decades so it has probably changed. But I knew no one who had a gun nor whose family did. As soon as I moved to Colorado that changed.
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