WTF Is Wrong With America And Gun Control?

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Dustydurban

Well-Known Member
Random rednecks taking over throwing Gov?
Take another Hit of your vape My Brother
Nobody said anything about that
Unarmed Countries have no ulitmate decision about their Liberty.
They just shut up and color and do as they are told
I get it that you think that is great.
Who guards the guardians?
I guess securing the schools arn't enough for you
 
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Dustydurban,

florduh

Well-Known Member
Random rednecks taking over throwing Gov?
Take another Hit of your vape My Brother
Nobody said anything about that
Unarmed Countries have no ulitmate decision about their Liberty.
They just shut up and color and do as they are told
I get it that you think that is great.
Who guards the guardians?
I guess securing the schools are't enough for you

You obviously believe that citizens armed with AR-15's are somehow a "check" on the power of the government. In 2018, that isn't the case.

What are you talking about in regards to other countries just "doing as they are told"? Guns outnumber citizens in this country... we still "shut up" and follow the law here. And we throw more of our citizens in jail than other civilized countries.

You seem to think Europe, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are some kind of authoritarian hellholes. You're wrong about that.

And yes I want to secure the schools by keeping high powered rifles out of crazy peoples' hands. Even if you arm the teachers, I don't want the Football Coach going up against an AR-15 with a handgun.
 

lazylathe

Almost there...
My country of birth, a 3rd world country, South Africa, has gun laws to prevent mass shootings and murders.
Is it perfect, hell no but it is better than nothing!! No mass shootings ever...

Maybe gun laws are a good thing.

As a 1st world nation, it should not be that hard to understand...
 
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Dustydurban

Well-Known Member
I guess the british thought the same, say in 1776
Why did we have a revolution?
Things were great here
Why did the people say FU Gov
Blow each other up?
Europe has their own special hell holes scattered
and embedded within
don't think they don't
You didn't seem to answer
Who guards the Guardians?

We 1st world peeps are stupid i guess
Don't no shit
That's why we are 1St not 3rd
 
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Dustydurban,

Alex3oe

Accessory Maker
Just because there was a response to the claim, does not mean it has been "addressed" and agreed to be a canard. The whole point of gun control is friction. You're not going to keep people from killing people, you're just trying to make it harder. I think Scott Adams (Dilbert) said it best,

Many pro-gun people in the debate seem to be confused about the purpose of laws in general. Laws are not designed to eliminate crime. Laws are designed to reduce crime. The most motivated criminals will always find a way, and law-abiding citizens will avoid causing trouble in the first place. Laws are only for the people in the middle who might — under certain situations — commit a crime. Any friction you introduce to that crowd has a statistical chance of making a difference.

Humans are lazy and stupid, on average. If you make something 20% harder to do, a lot of humans will pass. It doesn’t matter what topic you are discussing; if you introduce friction, fewer people do it. With that in mind, let’s look at the least-rational gun control arguments I am seeing lately.​

Which is it?

If friction, we would expect to see better numbers out of Chicago. If not friction, then the only possible end game is complete confiscation. Then, can we blame the gun violence on the gun takers?




http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...djust-for-population-20160731-snap-story.html

Using the traditional FBI definition, the EU and the U.S. each experienced 25 mass shootings during the first seven years of Obama's presidency (January 2009 to December 2015).

The rate at which people were killed was virtually the same: 0.083 per million people in the EU versus 0.089 per million people in the U.S. But the injury rate in the EU was more than twice as high: 0.19 versus 0.087.

If you compare the U.S. to individual countries in Europe over the same time period, the U.S. had the 11th highest fatality rate. Because of Anders Breivik's 2011 attack at a summer camp, Norway had the top spot — 1.9 per million people per year. This rate was 21 times higher than that of the U.S. But other advanced countries such as France, Switzerland, Finland, Belgium and the Czech Republic also came in above the U.S.

Looking only at frequency of attacks — as Obama seems wont to do — while still adjusting for population, the U.S. came in 12th, with 0.078 per million people.

Compared to the rest of the world, moreover, the U.S. and Europe are quite safe from mass public shootings. In Russia and elsewhere, struggles over sovereignty have led to a large number of devastating attacks. For instance, the 2004 Beslan school siege— carried out in the name of Chechen independence — claimed 385 lives.
However, the fact Norway tops the list is probably more of a function of a very low population and a very egregious event than indication of some underlying Truth.



If the polls really meant what you are claiming, any politician is out of office if they don't vote that way.

Yet, after decades, we're still in the same place.

Maybe, people agree to "doing something" when asked, but when the something becomes a specific proposal that does not seem as though it will solve any problem discussed, they disagree. I'm very much in favor of having a summer body. I just don't really want to do the diet and exercise required to get it.

It's not the latest study, but shows quite some years and different numbers:

"Despite having only about 5 percent of the world's population, the United States was the attack site for a disproportionate 31 percent of public mass shooters globally from 1966-2012, according to new research that will be presented at the 110th Annual Meeting of the American Sociological Association (ASA)."

http://www.asanet.org/press-center/...31-percent-its-public-mass-shooters-1966-2012
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
I guess the british thought the same, say in 1776
Why did we have a revolution?
Things were great here
Why did the people say FU Gov
Blow each other up?
Europe has their own special hell holes scattered
and embedded within
don't think they don't
You didn't seem to answer
Who guards the Guardians?

Dude. Come on. Do you really not understand the difference between the military technology level in 1776 vs 2018? Your AR-15 isn't doing shit against armed drones. Saying we need to tolerate multiple school shootings per year so you can keep your fantasy of overthrowing the Government with AR-15's is insanity.

No one said Europe is perfect. But they don't have our mass shooting problems.

We 1st world peeps are stupid i guess
Don't no shit
That's why we are 1St not 3rd

Most of the first world is smart enough to have solved the mass shooting problem. Only America is dumb enough to allow it to continue. It is embarrassing to me.
 

macbill

Oh No! Mr macbill!!
Staff member
28276927_10213993904714226_5515705260504575512_n.jpg
 

lazylathe

Almost there...
@Dustydurban

Muzzle loading VS high cap auto rifles?

Once again I will say this to you:
1791 VS 2018

Surely society had progressed slightly since then?

Why not just ban loaded ammo and go back to muzzle loading, at least this will give innocent bystanders a chance to get away...
 

Dustydurban

Well-Known Member
I love all the great stuff
Sterotyping someone they don't agree with
ya all are great at doing that
Assuming that I muct be stupid if I don't adhere to YOUR dogma
Good Luck Preaching
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
I love all the great stuff
Sterotyping someone they don't agree with
ya all are great at doing that
Assuming that I muct be stupid if I don't adhere to YOUR dogma
Good Luck Preaching

Who is "stereotyping"? We're having a discussion about an important topic. If you can't come up with a compelling counterargument.... I'd look into why that is.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
@OldNewbie I'm under no obligation to debunk whatever discredited right wing loon you dredge up to support your argument that our current gun free-for-all should continue. I already showed you Lott picked specific years when RARE events occurred in Europe.
Show us the data!

If something is so clearly discredited, a simple link might do it. You'd have a couple of underlying studies to refute too. Oh, maybe you should look at professional debunkers as well.

The far-right wing Politifact for instance:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2018/feb/14/what-we-know-about-mass-shootings/

How do mass shootings in the U.S. compare with other countries?
Mass shootings do happen in other countries. But they do not happen with the same frequency as in the United States.

Two researchers -- Jaclyn Schildkraut of the State University of New York in Oswego and H. Jaymi Elsass of Texas State University -- analyzed mass shootings in 11 countries, covering the period from 2000-14. Aside from the United States, they looked at Australia, Canada, China, England, Finland, France, Germany, Mexico, Norway and Switzerland.

The United States has more mass shootings -- and more people cumulatively killed or injured -- than the other 10 nations combined, according to their research. While part of this is because the United States has a much bigger population than all but China, the difference can’t be explained by skewed population numbers alone.

When adjusted for population, the United States ranks in the upper half of their list of 11 countries, ranking higher than Australia, Canada, China, England, France, Germany and Mexico. The United States did rank lower than three countries -- Norway, Finland and Switzerland -- but they have populations so small that one or two mass-casualty events can produce a relatively high per capita rate.​

Where have I seen that data before? Let me think a minute.

Don't like that? Fine. We will just ban them. Believe there are other guns that can do equivalent damage? Great. Those are banned too. Because the embarrassing free for all... where any lunatic can easily buy a war weapon is ending. Soon. I'm simply looking for solutions that keep AR's in the hands of responsible citizens.
At least that would be an honest position--and what is at the heart of all the other ones no matter how much lipstick one might put on the purported common sense restrictions pig to pretty it up.

After the lipstick, we can talk about what other civil rights you want to ban. Or, I want to ban. Except, the first rule of fight club and all that.
 
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florduh

Well-Known Member
Show us the data!

If something is so clearly discredited, a simple link might do it. You'd have a couple of underlying studies to refute too. Oh, maybe you should look at professional debunkers as well.

The far-right wing Politifact for instance:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2018/feb/14/what-we-know-about-mass-shootings/

How do mass shootings in the U.S. compare with other countries?
Mass shootings do happen in other countries. But they do not happen with the same frequency as in the United States.

Two researchers -- Jaclyn Schildkraut of the State University of New York in Oswego and H. Jaymi Elsass of Texas State University -- analyzed mass shootings in 11 countries, covering the period from 2000-14. Aside from the United States, they looked at Australia, Canada, China, England, Finland, France, Germany, Mexico, Norway and Switzerland.

The United States has more mass shootings -- and more people cumulatively killed or injured -- than the other 10 nations combined, according to their research. While part of this is because the United States has a much bigger population than all but China, the difference can’t be explained by skewed population numbers alone.

When adjusted for population, the United States ranks in the upper half of their list of 11 countries, ranking higher than Australia, Canada, China, England, France, Germany and Mexico. The United States did rank lower than three countries -- Norway, Finland and Switzerland -- but they have populations so small that one or two mass-casualty events can produce a relatively high per capita rate.​

Where have I seen that data before? Let me think a minute.

At least that would be an honest position--and what is at the heart of all the other ones no matter how much lipstick one might put on the purported common sense restrictions pig to pretty it up.

After the lipstick, we can talk about what other civil rights you want to ban. Or, I want to ban. Except, the first rule of fight club and all that.

I'm under no obligation to debunk whatever NRA stooge op-ed you throw out there as "evidence". But the Politifact article points you in the right direction. America has a disproportionately high frequency of mass shootings. That's what this is about. Making mass shootings less likely. Not preventing them entirely. That is impossible.

And spare me the nonsense about "civil rights". Children in this country have the right to attend school without fear that a lunatic who bought their high powered weaponry at a fucking STORE may end their lives at any moment. This shouldn't be happening multiple times per year in a civilized country.

If you are scared and want to defend your home, buy a shotgun. Your "civil rights" are intact. I simply floated the idea of requiring training and certification in order to own AR-15 type rifles as a reasonable compromise.
 

lazylathe

Almost there...
I love all the great stuff
Sterotyping someone they don't agree with
ya all are great at doing that
Assuming that I muct be stupid if I don't adhere to YOUR dogma
Good Luck Preaching

I am not stereotyping or preaching to you, don't have the time or patience for that.

I simply stated that as time passes and a civilization progresses, it makes sense that the laws governing those people change with them.
This is pretty standard across the world except in the US when it comes to guns.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, that is why this discussion continues.
Add some relevant information and it will be treated as such.
 
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Dustydurban

Well-Known Member
Who guards the guardians?
and I won't communicate with foreigners trying to influnce me
people go to jail for that
elections were decided from that
Why should i break the law?
and
When the Hypebole is through the roof
That must be coming from someone under the influence of
Class 1 Narcotics
Secure the damn schools easy
Hire well motavated veterans to guard them
How goddam hard is that?
Blovating about certain weapon systems?
Have we (Society) advanced that much in 200yrs?
Hardly
Wars to end all wars
You think everybody's going to shit daisys when all ar are destroyed?
World Peace?
Fuck
Call me what i am a cynic

Govmintes aint going to change peoples hearts
and minds
 
Dustydurban,

DeeCee5

Livin' La Vida Loca in FL
As a Massachusetts democratic leaning liberal and someone who was raised around guns and rifles (which during some lean years of my childhood put the only red meat we kids would see on the table), and a former competitive shooter, I could probably do a decent job arguing either side of gun control.

I haven't read all 27 pages of this thread, so please forgive me if this topic has been brought up before.
I don't think America is having as much a gun problem as a mental health epidemic and I am not sure what can be done to fix it. Massachusetts has some of strictest Gun laws in the country.
In order of complexity, Mass requires a permits for owning a rifle or mace, owning a hand gun (for sporting purposes only) and owning a concealed handgun. Note: The handgun permits cover owning a rifle as well.

In Mass it is at the discretion of the local police chief as to what qualifications you need to obtain a rifle or gun permit. Typically, it is required that you pass an NRA safety course, have multiple state and federal police background checks, belong to a "Sportsman club" and get several written references regarding your good character.

All in all, this should make Mass a pretty safe place to live.
However, none of things are going to help you if you are dealing with someone with significant mental health issues and a willingness to create mayhem.

This is what happened last weekend in my hometown; https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2018/02/24/winchester-library-stabbing.

The police knew of this individual and assured the town that he was being kept under close watch.

Should I feel good that because of the Mass laws he didn't have a firearm and more people weren't harmed or should I feel scared that because of the stringent laws in Mass, it was unlikely that this individual would encounter someone who could overpower him before the police arrived?
 

Alex3oe

Accessory Maker
Who guards the guardians?
and I won't communicate with foreigners trying to influnce me
people go to jail for that
elections were decided from that
Why should i break the law?
and
When the Hypebole is through the roof
That must be coming from someone under the influence of
Class 1 Narcotics
Secure the damn schools easy
Hire well motavated veterans to guard them
How goddam hard is that?
Blovating about certain weapon systems?
Have we (Society) advanced that much in 200yrs?
Hardly
Wars to end all wars
You think everybody's going to shit daisys when all ar are destroyed?
World Peace?
Fuck
Call me what i am a cynic

Govmintes aint going to change peoples hearts
and minds


Yeah, treat the symptom not the cause...
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
As a Massachusetts democratic leaning liberal and someone who was raised around guns and rifles (which during some lean years of my childhood put the only red meat we kids would see on the table), and a former competitive shooter, I could probably do a decent job arguing either side of gun control.

I haven't read all 27 pages of this thread, so please forgive me if this topic has been brought up before.
I don't think America is having as much a gun problem as a mental health epidemic and I am not sure what can be done to fix it. Massachusetts has some of strictest Gun laws in the country.
In order of complexity, Mass requires a permits for owning a rifle or mace, owning a hand gun (for sporting purposes only) and owning a concealed handgun. Note: The handgun permits cover owning a rifle as well.

In Mass it is at the discretion of the local police chief as to what qualifications you need to obtain a rifle or gun permit. Typically, it is required that you pass an NRA safety course, have multiple state and federal police background checks, belong to a "Sportsman club" and get several written references regarding your good character.

All in all, this should make Mass a pretty safe place to live.
However, none of things are going to help you if you are dealing with someone with significant mental health issues and a willingness to create mayhem.

This is what happened last weekend in my hometown; https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2018/02/24/winchester-library-stabbing.

The police knew of this individual and assured the town that he was being kept under close watch.

Should I feel good that because of the Mass laws he didn't have a firearm and more people weren't harmed or should I feel scared that because of the stringent laws in Mass, it was unlikely that this individual would encounter someone who could overpower him before the police arrived?

Yeah, treat the symptom not the cause...

It has been discussed. Strict gun laws in one State, combined with free-for-all gun laws in States within driving distance won't cut it.

We've run this experiment. Other First World Countries with stricter gun laws do NOT have the level of gun violence or mass shootings that we do in the United States.

These countries consume the same mass media, they have the same mental health challenges. Yet they don't have multiple mass shootings per year.

The variable here is America's free-for-all gun laws. And no one thinks we can prevent EVERY mass murder. We CAN bring their frequency down to what the rest of the civilized world experiences.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
I'm under no obligation to debunk whatever NRA stooge op-ed you throw out there as "evidence". But the Politifact article points you in the right direction. America has a disproportionately high frequency of mass shootings. That's what this is about. Making mass shootings less likely. Not preventing them entirely. That is impossible.
Number of incidents is more important than the number killed, got it. The Washington Post threads that needle for you. (Only two Pinocchios.)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ed-to-other-countries/?utm_term=.92cd12cdaf3a

However, I thought all the talk about the weapon here was because it was assigned some high-danger killing-machine value and not that it was a firearm. If "frequency" of events is the problem, then, it ain't the choice of gun that's the problem.

And spare me the nonsense about "civil rights". Children in this country have the right to attend school without fear that a lunatic who bought their high powered weaponry at a fucking STORE may end their lives at any moment. This shouldn't be happening multiple times per year in a civilized country.
You'll have to give me your definition of "right" as I don't see it anywhere. Most use the term "right" as an individual liberty where government is not supposed to invade. Some get a little more technical and have civil rights be equal protection from discrimination based on prohibited characteristics and civil liberties that are more the way I'm using the term civil rights. I'll have to wait for your definition to respond. Even if you come up with a good one, where some purported "right" can't be guaranteed by anyone or anything, I probably can't respond if the thread will continue. Fight Club.

If you are scared and want to defend your home, buy a shotgun. Your "civil rights" are intact. I simply floated the idea of requiring training and certification in order to own AR-15 type rifles as a reasonable compromise.
I don't think a gun fearing man on the left is the best one to give me home protection tips.

As to the floated idea minimization, what happens if people don't go to the classes? Why the AR-15? Is it scary to you? Do you know why there are more people killed by Ford's than Ferrari's? (Hint: It's not because of the vehicle's power and speed.) That is why the "reasonable compromise" is neither. While you haven't laid out a specific proposal, when we study it, I suspect we'll find it really won't help with whatever specific problem you're worried about.

Look at the pictures of the gun shop Cruz bought the AR-15. Are there any other weapons on the walls that can do the same thing just as effectively? Training is a good thing. Responsible people train with the tools they use. Forced training is every bit as effective as high school. Another hoop to jump through to get to the next boss.

I think some value from the test California uses to get a firearm (handgun) safety certificate. At the very least, the law abiding will know the legal responsibilities for owning a firearm and demonstrate how to handle it safely. There's no data showing it helps in any way, but, it is still early for the long gun training to have any real effect on the data. For that, we'll have to wait and see. The requirement for handguns has been out a bit longer than the one for long guns. I am uncertain as to why there are no published studies I can find on how well it is working.
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
@OldNewbie Frequency and number of victims both matter.

You typed a lot. I don't have time to go through all of it. Writing a dissertation isn't really helpful on a forum and gets away from the point.

But why the AR-15? Ask every mass shooter why they happen to pick it for their slaughters. If you think there are other weapons that can do as much damage just as quickly, great. We can ban those too. No more weapons of war in unqualified hands.

And sorry if mandatory training is abhorrent to you. Do you feel the same about helicopter pilots? Should we make training optional for them as well?

The free for all is ending soon, OldNewbie. We can either work together to ensure only qualified, sane people own assault weapons, or we can ban them outright. Your choice. But this insanity must change.

My favorite part of this has been seeing children in High School cut through EVERY bullshit NRA talking point.

Just because we can't prevent every mass murder doesn't mean we should take no steps to reduce their frequency and casualty rate.
 

hafalump

Well-Known Member
In America an 18 yr. old can buy an ar15. Gotta be 21 to drink......
Also gotta be 21 to buy a pistol. Maybe we should lower the ar15 age to like
16 or 14?

The fucking 2nd was written for single shot musket loaders, not semi auto.
Extending the NRA logic (wow, two words that don't go together)
Gun nuts should demand RPG s to protect their property?... it is in the law!
 

howie105

Well-Known Member
It has been discussed. Strict gun laws in one State, combined with free-for-all gun laws in States within driving distance won't cut it.

We've run this experiment. Other First World Countries with stricter gun laws do NOT have the level of gun violence or mass shootings that we do in the United States.

These countries consume the same mass media, they have the same mental health challenges. Yet they don't have multiple mass shootings per year.

The variable here is America's free-for-all gun laws. And no one thinks we can prevent EVERY mass murder. We CAN bring their frequency down to what the rest of the civilized world experiences.

So which of these countries that you are citing have you lived in?
 
howie105,

Krazy

Well-Known Member
It's been reported that teachers are lining up to take classes to carry.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...g-teachers-gun-training-says-classes-sold-out

Seems as if Foreigners are trying to stick their noses in our issues
What you people do in your country is your business
What we do here is ours
^%$#ing A right! In my life time 99% of the worlds woes have been caused by other countries invading and embargoing the USofA while we mind our own business.

I love all the great stuff
Sterotyping someone they don't agree with
ya all are great at doing that...
He says; stereotyping those he disagrees with.

the first rule of fight club ...​
:ninja: Shhhhh. Even talking about the first rule IS talking about Fight Club. Crap; now I'm doing it!


Fight Club.
:doh:

 
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pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
The following is from Appendix 1: Thirty-seven dishonest tricks commonly used in argument, with the methods of overcoming them in Thouless, Robert Henry. Straight and Crooked Thinking (Teach Yourself). Hodder & Stoughton. Kindle Edition. I encourage everyone to read these even though the list is lengthy, then try to apply them to your posts in this thread (and anywhere else, for that matter.) I make this recommendation because I've seen most of these tricks employed here, whether intentionally or not I will not opine. In particular, the first one in the list is frequently employed. If we insisted that every post in this thread was devoid of these tactics, this would a really short thread indeed (but still repetitive).

1. The use of emotionally toned words.

Dealt with by translating the statement into emotionally neutral words.

2. Discussing a verbal proposition as if it were a factual one, or failing to disentangle the verbal and factual elements in a proposition that is partly both.

This is really an incompetent rather than a dishonest way of arguing. The remedy is to point out how much of the question at issue is a difference in the use of words and how much (if at all) it is a difference as to fact or values.

3. Putting forward a tautology (such as, that too much of the thing attacked is bad) as if it were a factual judgement.

Dealt with by pointing out that the statement is necessarily true from its verbal form.

4. Change in the meaning of a term during the course of an argument.

Dealt with by getting the term defined or by substituting an equivalent form of words at one of the points where the term in question is used, and seeing whether the use of this form of words affects the truth of the statement.

5. The use of a dilemma which ignores a continuous series of possibilities between the two extremes presented.

Dealt with by refusing to accept either alternative, but pointing to the fact of the continuity which the person using the argument has ignored. Since this is likely to appear over-subtle to an opponent using the argument, it may be strengthened by pointing out that the argument is the same as that of saying, ‘Is this paper black or white?’ when it is, in fact, a shade of grey.

6. The use of the fact of continuity between them to throw doubt on a real difference between two things (the ‘argument of the beard’).

Dealt with by pointing out that the difference is nevertheless real. This again may be made stronger by pointing out that application of the same method of argument would deny the difference between ‘black’ and ‘white’ or between ‘hot’ and ‘cold’.

7. Illegitimate use of or demand for definition.

If an opponent uses definitions to pin down facts which are not clear-cut, it is necessary to point out to him how much more complicated facts are in reality than in his words. If he tries to drive you to define for the same purpose, the remedy is to refuse formal definition but to adopt some other method of making your meaning clear.

8. Use of a bad implied definition.

Dealt with by asking the speaker exactly how he defines the word.

9. Making a statement in which ‘all’ is implied but ‘some’ is true.

Dealt with by putting the word ‘all’ into the statement and showing that it is then false.

10. Proof by selected instances.

Dealt with dishonestly by selecting instances opposing your opponent’s contention or honestly by pointing out the true form of the proof (as a statistical problem in association) and either supplying the required numerical facts or pointing out that your opponent has not got them.

11. Extension of an opponent’s proposition by contradiction or by misrepresentation of it.

Dealt with by stating again the more moderate position that is being defended.

12. Diversion to another question, to a side issue, or by irrelevant objection.

Dealt with by refusing to be diverted from the original question, but stating again the real question at issue.

13. Proof by inconsequent argument.

Dealt with by asking that the connection between the proposition and the alleged proof may be explained, even though the request for explanation may be attributed to ignorance or lack of logical insight on the part of the person making it.

14. The argument that we should not make efforts against X which is admittedly evil because there is a worse evil Y against which our efforts should be directed.

Dealt with by pointing out that this is a reason for making efforts to abolish Y, but no reason for not also making efforts to get rid of X.

15. The recommendation of a position because it is a mean between two extremes.

Dealt with by denying the usefulness of the principle as a method of discovering the truth. In practice, this can most easily be done by showing that our own view also can be represented as a mean between two extremes.

16. Pointing out the logical correctness of the form of an argument whose premises contain doubtful or untrue statements of fact.

Dealt with by refusing to discuss the logic of the argument but pointing out the defects of its presentations of alleged fact.

17. The use of an argument of logically unsound form.

Since the unsoundness of such arguments can be easily seen when the form of the argument is clearly displayed, an opponent who does this can be dealt with by making such a simple statement of his argument that its unsoundness is apparent. For one’s own satisfaction when reading an argument of doubtful soundness, it will often be found useful to make a diagram.

18. Argument in a circle.
19. Begging the question.

Both 18 and 19 can be dealt with in the same way as 17; by restating our opponent’s argument in such a simple way that the nature of the device used must be clear to anyone.

20. Overcoming resistance to a doubtful proposition by a preliminary statement of a few easily accepted ones.

Knowledge of this trick and preparedness for it are the best safeguards against its effects.

21. Statement of a doubtful proposition in such a way that it fits in with the thought-habits or the prejudices of the hearer (Chapters 9/10).

A habit of questioning what appears obvious is the best safeguard against this trick. A particular device of value against it is to restate a questionable proposition in a new context in which one’s thought-habits do not lead to its acceptance.

22. Angering an opponent in order that he may argue badly.

Dealt with by refusing to get angry however annoying our opponent may be.

23. Special pleading.

Dealt with by applying one’s opponent’s special arguments to other propositions that he is unwilling to admit.

24. Commending or condemning a proposition because of its practical consequences to the hearer.

We can only become immune to the effect of this kind of appeal if we have formed a habit of recognizing our own tendencies to be guided by our prejudices and by our own self-interest, and of distrusting our judgement on questions in which we are practically concerned.

25. Argument by attributing prejudices or motives to one’s opponent.

Best dealt with by pointing out that other prejudices may equally well determine the opposite view, and that, in any case, the question of why a person holds an opinion is an entirely different question from that of whether the opinion is or is not true.

26. The use of generally accepted formulae of predigested thought as premises in argument.

The best way of dealing with predigested thinking in argument is to point out good-humouredly and with a backing of real evidence that matters are more complicated than your opponent supposes.

27. ‘There is much to be said on both sides, so no decision can be made either way’, or any other formula leading to the attitude of academic detachment.

Dealt with by pointing out that taking no action has practical consequences no less real than those that result from acting on either of the propositions in dispute, and that this is no more likely than any other to be the right solution of the difficulty.

28. Argument by mere analogy.

Dealt with by examining the alleged analogy in detail and pointing out where it breaks down.

29. Argument by forced analogy.

The absurdity of a forced analogy can best be exposed by showing how many other analogies supporting different conclusions might have been used.

30. Suggestion by repeated affirmation.
31. Suggestion by use of a confident manner.
32. Suggestion by prestige.

The best safeguard against all three of these tricks of suggestion is a theoretical knowledge of suggestion, so that their use may be detected. All three devices lose much of their effect if the audience sees how the effect is being obtained, so merely pointing out the fact that the speaker is trying to create conviction by repeated assertion in a confident manner may be enough to make this device ineffective. Ridicule is also often used to undermine the confident manner, or any kind of criticism that makes the speaker begin to grow angry or plaintive.

33. Prestige by false credentials.

The obvious remedy for this is, when practicable, to expose the falsity of the titles, degrees, etc., that are used. The prestige then collapses.

34. Prestige by the use of pseudo-technical jargon.

Best dealt with by asking in a modest manner that the speaker should explain himself more simply.

35. Affectation of failure to understand backed by prestige.

Dealt with by more than ample explanation.

36. The use of questions drawing out damaging admissions.

Dealt with by refusal to make the admissions. The difficulty of this refusal must be overcome by any device reducing one’s suggestibility to the questioner.

37. The appeal to mere authority.

Dealt with by considering whether the person supposed to have authority had a sound reason for making the assertion that is attributed to him.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member

What is an "assault weapon"?


In America an 18 yr. old can buy an ar15. Gotta be 21 to drink......
Also gotta be 21 to buy a pistol. Maybe we should lower the ar15 age to like
16 or 14?

The fucking 2nd was written for single shot musket loaders, not semi auto.
Extending the NRA logic (wow, two words that don't go together)
Gun nuts should demand RPG s to protect their property?... it is in the law!

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZO.html
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER (478 F. 3d 370):
Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous, that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected by the Second Amendment . We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844, Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27,Second Amendment extends, prima facie,to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding.​
 
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