WTF Is Wrong With America And Gun Control?

[CarolKing]

Many school that are being remodeled are building them with safety in mind in our state. Making sure there’s only one entrance and they need to be approved before entering the school. The other parts of the school have a card lock. What happens when the students in elementary school have recess? The schools aren’t going to be completely safe ever. Changes in the way our schools are built will help.

Strict gun rules will also help.

Edit
It looks like churches will need security and safety in mind. It’s fucking nuts!
I feel like my rights are being infringed on.

 

[florduh]

Israel armed their teachers in 74 and have only had two school shootings. Teachers killed the shooter both times. So maybe arming teachers isnt so crazy? Again no one wants to arm all teachers. Only those that can and will protect our children.

Oh come on. That's ISRAEL. They have, you know, let's call it a "unique security problem". This is America. We're not supposed to have teachers packing heat here.

But fine. Let's arm the teachers, even though it's a terrible idea. BUT you are STILL going to need to take steps to reduce the number of AR-15's. Because how do you think the Gym Teacher with a handgun is going to fare against the crazy person with an AR-15?

Thats no surprising its not your culture, history or country. I am sure we could find folks from other places on the planet who would think that both of our cultures are fucked.

If our "culture" results in children getting mowed down in school on a regular basis, it's a sick culture. Of course owning AR-15's isn't "cultural". I'm fine with people owning them though. After mental health screenings, proper training with re-certs, and licensing requirements. To paraphrase the President, "only the best" should be wielding weapons of war.

 

[Newcastle]

Thats great for new schools but there are millions of old schools with multiple entrances. Stricter gun laws dont work. look at California and New York.....not to mention Chicago.

Floriduh we just don't agree and have opposite views......my polite way of saying your wrong..

 

[howie105]

For ma as an European this whole discussion is pure madness

Lets stay on the original point, if ones perception of another culture is so confusing and foreign that it inducers "madness" when accessing it perhaps one needs to take another look for the sake of clarity.

 

[florduh]

Thats great for new schools but there are millions of old schools with multiple entrances. Stricter gun laws dont work. look at California and New York.....not to mention Chicago.

This canard has already been addressed. Isolated strict gun laws don't work when you can drive a few hours to a free-for-all State and buy all the weaponry you want.

Again, in countries with stricter gun laws.... this shit doesn't happen. Saying "stricter gun laws don't work" is just incorrect. We KNOW they do since every country with stricter gun laws do not face multiple mass shootings per year.

@Newcastle you are just wrong here. If you disagree, explain why other countries don't experience the level of gun violence we see here in America. Obviously, it's our lax gun laws.

 

[CarolKing]

Thats great for new schools but there are millions of old schools with multiple entrances. Stricter gun laws dont work. look at California and New York.....not to mention Chicago.

Floriduh we just don't agree and have opposite views......my polite way of saying your wrong..

Schools will need to be remodeled using tax dollars. Schools are remodeled every 20 years in the area where I live.

70% of Americans believe in stricter gun laws

 

[Newcastle]

70%.....lol.....not all schools are being remodeled. Maybe where you live but not every where. If your poll numbers were correct Killary would be President.

 

[florduh]

70%.....lol.....not all schools are being remodeled. Maybe where you live but not every where. If your poll numbers were correct Killary would be President.

Two different recent polls showed the majority of Americans want stricter gun laws. CNN showed 70% support. USA Today showed 60% support. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-gun-laws-dont-expect-congress-act/371104002/

You don't get to cry "fake poll" because you don't like the results. That's how children reason. And your little quip about "Killary" isn't helping your case. Every national poll from the 2016 election showed a very close race. It was. They were accurate. Stop acting like because Trump won by a small margin, you get to dismiss every poll that makes you sad. Statistics still work.

 

[howie105]

If our "culture" results in children getting mowed down in school on a regular basis, it's a sick culture

I find the killing of tens of thousands of people in other countries by my country a lot more distressing then school shootings within its border but feel free to focus on what you wish.

 

[Newcastle]

Poles had her ahead the whole time! I am sorry I won't believe any CNN pole and USA today is the same outfit. They were the ones that were wrong. It's also how they ask the question.....I could get the pole to 100 % if I ask do you want to stop school shootings. Or you can ask who wants to ban all guns....It's all how when and where you ask. It's not FAKE when they have been WRONG so many times.

 

[florduh]

I find the killing of tens of thousands of people in other countries by my country a lot more distressing then school shootings within its border but feel free to focus on what you wish.

We can focus on both. Just like we can focus on securing schools AND keeping weapons of war out of the hands of lunatics. Not sure where this "we can only focus on one problem at a time" meme started, but it's nonsense.

@Newcastle Give me a break. You don't like what the polls say, so you try to justify to yourself why you can safely ignore them. You are also simply wrong. Every national poll showed a CLOSE election. It was. NONE of the recent gun polls are close. Neither candidate had 60 or 70% support in the 2016 election. You're being silly.

 

[Dustydurban]

Seems as if Foreigners are trying to stick their noses in our issues
What you people do in your country is your business
What we do here is ours
Trying ro spread FUD?
Should you be reported!!
What is it to you people?
Think you have a say?

 

[florduh]

Seems as if Foreigners are trying to stick their noses in our issues
What you people do in your country is your business
What we do here is ours
Trying ro spread FUD?
Should you be reported!!
What is it to you people?
Think you have a say?

Because those "Foreigners" have figured out how to not have multiple school shootings per year. Maybe open your mind a bit and listen?

And I find your charge of spreading FUD to be funny. What do you call it when the NRA calls ANY gun control measure an attempt to "dismantle the Second Amendment"? It's FUD. Even the most "evil" Dem supports the Second Amendment. The NRA tries to scare their base into believing otherwise. FUD.

 

[howie105]

We can focus on both...We could but we aren't, are we?

Not sure where this "we can only focus on one problem at a time" meme started, but it's nonsense...In our conversation that was your choice for introduction not mine.

Let me try again, we are in my opinion becoming so wrapped up in this one issue that other equally or perhaps even more important issues are being reduced to background noise.

 

[florduh]

We can focus on both...We could but we aren't, are we?

Speak for yourself. I am concerned about both. Acting like we can only focus on one problem at a time is nonsense.

Not sure where this "we can only focus on one problem at a time" meme started, but it's nonsense...In our conversation that was your choice for introduction not mine.

Let me try again, we are in my opinion becoming so wrapped up in this one issue that other equally or perhaps even more important issues are being reduced to background noise.

Again, this is a canard. You are in a thread about the American gun violence problem. Of course that is the chief thing being discussed. We can focus on American foreign policy as well. Start another thread if you'd like.

 

[Tranquility]

This canard has already been addressed. Isolated strict gun laws don't work when you can drive a few hours to a free-for-all State and buy all the weaponry you want.

Just because there was a response to the claim, does not mean it has been "addressed" and agreed to be a canard. The whole point of gun control is friction. You're not going to keep people from killing people, you're just trying to make it harder. I think Scott Adams (Dilbert) said it best,

Many pro-gun people in the debate seem to be confused about the purpose of laws in general. Laws are not designed to eliminate crime. Laws are designed to reduce crime. The most motivated criminals will always find a way, and law-abiding citizens will avoid causing trouble in the first place. Laws are only for the people in the middle who might — under certain situations — commit a crime. Any friction you introduce to that crowd has a statistical chance of making a difference.

Humans are lazy and stupid, on average. If you make something 20% harder to do, a lot of humans will pass. It doesn’t matter what topic you are discussing; if you introduce friction, fewer people do it. With that in mind, let’s look at the least-rational gun control arguments I am seeing lately.​

Which is it?

If friction, we would expect to see better numbers out of Chicago. If not friction, then the only possible end game is complete confiscation. Then, can we blame the gun violence on the gun takers?

Again, in countries with stricter gun laws.... this shit doesn't happen. Saying "stricter gun laws don't work" is just incorrect. We KNOW they do since every country with stricter gun laws do not face multiple mass shootings per year.

@Newcastle[/USER] you are just wrong here. If you disagree, explain why other countries don't experience the level of gun violence we see here in America. Obviously, it's our lax gun laws.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...djust-for-population-20160731-snap-story.html

Using the traditional FBI definition, the EU and the U.S. each experienced 25 mass shootings during the first seven years of Obama's presidency (January 2009 to December 2015).

The rate at which people were killed was virtually the same: 0.083 per million people in the EU versus 0.089 per million people in the U.S. But the injury rate in the EU was more than twice as high: 0.19 versus 0.087.

If you compare the U.S. to individual countries in Europe over the same time period, the U.S. had the 11th highest fatality rate. Because of Anders Breivik's 2011 attack at a summer camp, Norway had the top spot — 1.9 per million people per year. This rate was 21 times higher than that of the U.S. But other advanced countries such as France, Switzerland, Finland, Belgium and the Czech Republic also came in above the U.S.

Looking only at frequency of attacks — as Obama seems wont to do — while still adjusting for population, the U.S. came in 12th, with 0.078 per million people.

Compared to the rest of the world, moreover, the U.S. and Europe are quite safe from mass public shootings. In Russia and elsewhere, struggles over sovereignty have led to a large number of devastating attacks. For instance, the 2004 Beslan school siege— carried out in the name of Chechen independence — claimed 385 lives.
​

However, the fact Norway tops the list is probably more of a function of a very low population and a very egregious event than indication of some underlying Truth.

Give me a break. You don't like what the polls say, so you try to justify to yourself why you can safely ignore them. You are also simply wrong. Every national poll showed a CLOSE election. It was. NONE of the recent gun polls are close. Neither candidate had 60 or 70% support in the 2016 election. You're being silly.

If the polls really meant what you are claiming, any politician is out of office if they don't vote that way.

Yet, after decades, we're still in the same place.

Maybe, people agree to "doing something" when asked, but when the something becomes a specific proposal that does not seem as though it will solve any problem discussed, they disagree. I'm very much in favor of having a summer body. I just don't really want to do the diet and exercise required to get it.

 

[Dustydurban]

I heard Foreign infulence is bad and that an election was decided because of it
How dare anyone think different
We have a Special Investigation going on
Do you care about foreign infulence on americans
We are spending millions looking into it
What gives, you on Class 1 Natcotics?

 

[howie105]

Again, this is a canard.....That is an opinion which you are welcome to but that is all it is.

You are in a thread about the American gun violence problem...My attempt was to add some context to the discussion "I find the killing of tens of thousands of people in other countries by my country a lot more distressing then school shootings within its border but feel free to focus on what you wish." Sorry if you dislike it but is is what it is.

 

[Dustydurban]

Sorry,
I find your influence to be disturbing
There is no context
Might sway my thoughts and how i vote

 

[florduh]

@OldNewbie You are correct. Gun laws are supposed to make it more difficult for murderers to get weapons. A few hour round trip drive, where you can easily buy guns at a store in a free-for-all State is NOT friction. It's a minor inconvenience. Countries with stricter gun laws don't have this issue.

Your LA Times article is bullshit. It's an op-ed from John Lott, a controversial pro-gun advocate and darling of the NRA. https://www.armedwithreason.com/john-r-lott-fact-sheet/

He is cherry picking data from specific years. Quite dishonest.

I've already stated my solution. Make the level of training and qualification for owning an AR-15 similar to what we require for a helicopter pilot. Only the "best" of us should be running around with weapons of war. The free-for-all must stop.

I heard Foreign infulence is bad and that an election was decided because of it
How dare anyone think different
We have a Special Investigation going on
Do you care about foreign infulence on americans
We are spending millions looking into it
What gives, you on Class 1 Natcotics?

LOL. "Foreigners" simply pointing out that it's insane that our children are routinely mowed down by high powered rifles while sitting in school isn't "foreign influence". You're being silly.

 

[Dustydurban]

Countries with stricter gun laws don't have this issue.

Yes,
But:
They do get lifetime Presidents quite often
We do remember what happened to all those kids in a Square somewhere
when they thought they had something to say to their Govmint
Remember
"The power to Gov comes form the barrel of a gun"
Charmen Mough Say Tounge
Thoughts to ponder

 

[florduh]

Yes,
But:
They do get lifetime Presidents quite often
We do remember what happened to all those kids in a Square somewhere
when they thought they had something to say to their Govmint
Remember
"The power to Gov comes form the barrel of a gun"
Charmen Mough Say Tounge
Thoughts to ponder

Nope. Still wrong. Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Denmark, and every other civilized country that doesn't allow random loons to buy AR-15's are doing just fine.

And this idea that a bunch of rednecks with AR's are going to overthrow the government in 2018 is fantasy nonsense.

 

[lazylathe]

Some people just don't get laws...

http://www.theugandatoday.com/news/...din-uganda-prison-over-possession-of-firearm/

 

[Tranquility]

@OldNewbie You are correct. Gun laws are supposed to make it more difficult for murderers to get weapons. A few hour round trip drive, where you can easily buy guns at a store in a free-for-all State is NOT friction. It's a minor inconvenience. Countries with stricter gun laws don't have this issue.

Your LA Times article is bullshit. It's an op-ed from John Lott, a controversial pro-gun advocate and darling of the NRA. https://www.armedwithreason.com/john-r-lott-fact-sheet/

He is cherry picking data from specific years. Quite dishonest.

I've already stated my solution. Make the level of training and qualification for owning an AR-15 similar to what we require for a helicopter pilot. Only the "best" of us should be running around with weapons of war. The free-for-all must stop.

https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/659/03/

Fallacies are common errors in reasoning that will undermine the logic of your argument. Fallacies can be either illegitimate arguments or irrelevant points, and are often identified because they lack evidence that supports their claim. Avoid these common fallacies in your own arguments and watch for them in the arguments of others....​

------

Ad hominem: This is an attack on the character of a person rather than his or her opinions or arguments. Example:

Green Peace's strategies aren't effective because they are all dirty, lazy hippies.

In this example, the author doesn't even name particular strategies Green Peace has suggested, much less evaluate those strategies on their merits. Instead, the author attacks the characters of the individuals in the group.​

Elevate yourself. Give us the data, adjusted for population, you prefer. Make sure it supports the position of it doesn't happen in other countries.

As to the AR-15 canard, what part don't you like about it? A shooter can clear a classroom of life far quicker with the shotgun you mentioned than with an AR-15. And, the M-1 Garand I have from the Korean war over 70 years ago (And, it was old then.), has far more power than the round from the AR-15. Its clip is less and takes a few seconds to reload after the 8 shots. The M-1 carbine I have from WWII, a lighter weapon for paratroopers, has 15 and 30 round magazines standard and take less time than the Garrand's clip to reload. It is less powerful than the AR-15. (Bullet joules of energy is about 1854 for the AR-15 and 1311 for the M-1 carbine.) I suspect it can kill people real good if you don't need to go through body armor or are closer than 100 yards.

As someone more clever than I (Adam Winkler. UCLA law professor in favor of gun control.) said, ""Gun control advocates ridicule the NRA's claim that the government is coming to take away people's guns, then try to outlaw perhaps the most popular rifle in the country." when talking about the AR-15.

"Because these guns are really just ordinary rifles, it is hard for legislators to effectively regulate them without banning half the handguns in the country (those that are semiautomatic and/or have detachable magazines) and many hunting rifles as well,"


For those who actually want to do something about school shootings, one thing most might agree upon is this Teacher's plan.

https://www.rd.com/advice/parenting/stop-bullying-strategy/

Every Friday afternoon, she asks her students to take out a piece of paper and write down the names of four children with whom they’d like to sit the following week. The children know that these requests may or may not be honored. She also asks the students to nominate one student who they believe has been an exceptional classroom citizen that week. All ballots are privately submitted to her.

And every single Friday afternoon, after the students go home, she takes out those slips of paper, places them in front of her, and studies them. She looks for patterns.

Who is not getting requested by anyone else?

Who can’t think of anyone to request?

Who never gets noticed enough to be nominated?

Who had a million friends last week and none this week?

You see, Chase’s teacher is not looking for a new seating chart or “exceptional citizens.” Chase’s teacher is looking for lonely children. She’s looking for children who are struggling to connect with other children. She’s identifying the little ones who are falling through the cracks of the class’s social life. She is discovering whose gifts are going unnoticed by their peers. And she’s pinning down—right away—who’s being bullied and who is doing the bullying.
​

 

[florduh]

@OldNewbie I'm under no obligation to debunk whatever discredited right wing loon you dredge up to support your argument that our current gun free-for-all should continue. I already showed you Lott picked specific years when RARE events occurred in Europe.

Sorry, if you want to make the claim that America doesn't have a mass shooting problem UNIQUE in the civilized world, you'll need to do better than providing an op-ed from a gun advocate written years ago.



I already told you that I believe citizens should be able to own high powered weapons of war AFTER they complete a thorough background check, mental health screening, comprehensive training with re-certifications regularly.

Don't like that? Fine. We will just ban them. Believe there are other guns that can do equivalent damage? Great. Those are banned too. Because the embarrassing free for all... where any lunatic can easily buy a war weapon is ending. Soon. I'm simply looking for solutions that keep AR's in the hands of responsible citizens.