What cannabinoids or terpenes am I jeopardizing by vaping at higher temperatures?

Mario445

New Member
Hello. I've been reading online about vaping temperatures, but I'm a bit confused. I like to vape at 338° Fahrenheit instantly with my Crafty. I don't let it sit or anything. What cannabinoids could I possibly be losing that might get burnt off at that temperature?

I hear people like to vape in the 200s tell me why. Thanks.

Edit: Also link any good sources
 
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invertedisdead

Defenders Of Glass
 

C No Ego

Well-Known Member
Hello. I've been reading online about vaping temperatures, but I'm a bit confused. I like to vape at 338° Fahrenheit instantly with my Crafty. I don't let it sit or anything. What cannabinoids could I possibly be losing that might get burnt off at that temperature?

I hear people like to vape in the 200s tell me why. Thanks.

Edit: Also link any good sources
generally even at low heats even the higher heat compounds can start to release from the fibers of the herb given enough heated air flow over the herb.. you will be inhaling more of the acid precursor compounds at the start of the session until the heated air starts decarboxylating the enzymes surrounding the remaining active compounds and those decarboxylated compounds ente the air flow upon the inhale....

vaporizers too are not an exact science and if it reads 350 on the digital read out it does not exactly signify that temp in the chamber with the herb in there... add in heated draws from you breathing in and that changes the dynamics as well...

Edit- post # 421.. one more than 420
 

Mario445

New Member
generally even at low heats even the higher heat compounds can start to release from the fibers of the herb given enough heated air flow over the herb.. you will be inhaling more of the acid precursor compounds at the start of the session until the heated air starts decarboxylating the enzymes surrounding the remaining active compounds and those decarboxylated compounds ente the air flow upon the inhale....

vaporizers too are not an exact science and if it reads 350 on the digital read out it does not exactly signify that temp in the chamber with the herb in there... add in heated draws from you breathing in and that changes the dynamics as well...

Edit- post # 421.. one more than 420

Wow thanks, really changed my perspective on it. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing for now. It feels comfortable. 338° F then raise 10° to finish it off.
 
Mario445,
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stoned-chihuahua

New Member
Hello. I've been reading online about vaping temperatures, but I'm a bit confused. I like to vape at 338° Fahrenheit instantly with my Crafty. I don't let it sit or anything. What cannabinoids could I possibly be losing that might get burnt off at that temperature?

I hear people like to vape in the 200s tell me why. Thanks.

Edit: Also link any good sources

Lots of misinformation about vape temperatures out there. After more than a decade of trial and error, I knew a lot of the information I was getting was wrong.

338° is way too low. Try 446° F. At 338° vaping effeciency is so low, you are better off smoking it. I wonder if the guy who perpetuated this myth owns a dispensary or grow facility. It sure will waste a lot of cannabis. This is also why so many people claim vaping is ineffective. They’re doing it wrong!

Here is the science that backs it up:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...nabinoid_content_of_vaporised_Cannabis_sativa

As much as I could say this blew my mind, I sort of came to the same conclusion through years of trial and error.

The problem is, lower temps taste better, and terps are hyped. Yeah, you get a few puffs that taste like a cookie or citrus or a skunk’s arse and then it fades. I have a theory that low temp vaping is an artifact of terp hype. It is amazing that people are vastly underutilizing their cannabis because they love that cookie taste. Just eat a cookie. Oh well, people can do whatever they want. I just thought I would clear up the new age mythology about vape temps, because there’s a wealth of misinformation out there.


This is the ubiquitous yet incorrect chart I see everywhere...

Here is the science:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...nabinoid_content_of_vaporised_Cannabis_sativa

Even 428° F is too low.
 
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biohacker

Well-Known Member
Interesting...I have used high temps for over a decade, but dropped them under 375f to avoid any potential nasty chemicals, as well as increasing lung comfort. I always felt the strongest effects at the highest temps! Low temp vaping of herb is too "incomplete" for me and nearly anxiety inducing. I'll have to experiment more.

@invertedisdead recently posted a study from way back about the Volcano and THC efficient extraction with higher temps than thought.
 

stoned-chihuahua

New Member
Here’s another good study that covers several different brands of vapes. They set the vapes to 210° C, because some models can only go that high.

The thing I love about this study is that it is so practical and has a wealth of information for vape consumers. Again, it confirms what I have known for years - Arizer makes the best vapes. I own 6 different vapes, and the first one I bought, the original Arizer Extreme is by far the best. The other ones are portables I bought later, all so disappointing.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147286

They use two strains — high THC and high CBD. Excellent science here!

Interesting...I have used high temps for over a decade, but dropped them under 375f to avoid any potential nasty chemicals, as well as increasing lung comfort. I always felt the strongest effects at the highest temps! Low temp vaping of herb is too "incomplete" for me and nearly anxiety inducing. I'll have to experiment more.

@invertedisdead recently posted a study from way back about the Volcano and THC efficient extraction with higher temps than thought.
The amazing thing is that you actually get a higher ratio of cannabinoids to by products at higher temps. Lower temps produce vapor with less purity. At 170° you are better off smoking.

“The worst ratio of cannabinoids:by-products was obtained from the vaporized cannabis sample at 170 degrees C.”

This reminds me of the NORML water pipe study from the 90s. Intuitively, it seemed like bongs were just burning up my weed, but the mythology was that THC just passed through the water without dissolving. This was based on the notion that oil and water don’t mix. Well, THC does get dissolved in bong water.

People figured this out before the NORML study. When I was in high school in the late 80s, my friend’s dad had this elaborate system for getting the most out of Mexican brick weed. He dried it and chopped it into a fine powder with scissors. He used a homemade bong constructed out of a jar with a funnel type bowl. You just sucked the ash into the water when the hit was done. After several weeks, he ran the bong water through a coffee filter and added the solids back to his stash. It was a pretty clever system for making a bong more efficient.

As cannabis prohbition reaches its end, I expect to see more myths dispelled.
 
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invertedisdead

Defenders Of Glass
This is the ubiquitous yet incorrect chart I see everywhere...

Here is the science:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...nabinoid_content_of_vaporised_Cannabis_sativa

Even 428° F is too low.

What are you claiming is incorrect? The boiling point of THC? It's not that the number is wrong, it's that it was measured under strong vacuum, so it's relevant for lab use, but maybe not for our every-day vaporization.

Here’s another good study that covers several different brands of vapes. They set the vapes to 210° C, because some models can only go that high.

The thing I love about this study is that it is so practical and has a wealth of information for vape consumers. Again, it confirms what I have known for years - Arizer makes the best vapes. I own 6 different vapes, and the first one I bought, the original Arizer Extreme is by far the best. The other ones are portables I bought later, all so disappointing.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147286

They use two strains — high THC and high CBD. Excellent science here!

Actually there are some flaws here if you read the whole study, especially how they collected the samples. I've discussed all of these tests recently with @biohacker in great detail. My Volcano is from 2006 so I'm pretty familiar with most of the studies done with that device. Anybody that has ever owned a Volcano knows its not going to perform well with .05g of herb. In fact, here's an except from the study you cited in your previous post.

"Although the Volcano vaporizer has several advan-
tages compared to cannabis cigarette smoke, the proper
use for the administration of medicinal cannabis has to
be established in more detail. Based on our results, the
amount of cannabis used plays a crucial role in the vapor
quality and should thus not be left to random administra-
tion, but carefully adjusted. Vaporizing temperature is
another factor to be optimized."

I have an Arizer Air which is very similar to the Solo, (same heater, IIRC) and IMO it's the worst vaporizer I've ever owned as far as medicating potential. Go figure?



As much as I could say this blew my mind, I sort of came to the same conclusion through years of trial and error.

The problem is, lower temps taste better, and terps are hyped. Yeah, you get a few puffs that taste like a cookie or citrus or a skunk’s arse and then it fades. I have a theory that low temp vaping is an artifact of terp hype. It is amazing that people are vastly underutilizing their cannabis because they love that cookie taste. Just eat a cookie. Oh well, people can do whatever they want. I just thought I would clear up the new age mythology about vape temps, because there’s a wealth of misinformation out there.

I actually agree with part of this, but I wouldn't call it terp hype. Those essential oils are capable of inhibiting enzymes which allow them to modulate the effects of the cannabinoids. Vaporizing at higher temperatures likely oxidizes or degrades those terpenes which affects their medicinal or therapeutic value. It's why a low temp hit feels SO different from a high temp hit, as far as pscyhoactivity is concerned.







Yes there are more cannabinoids by vaping at higher temps BUT these cannabinoids are not necessarily desirable for ones particular medical condition. Certain high temp cannabinoids like CBC are very sedative in my experience. Also, it goes without saying that high temp vapor can certainly be quite harsh, with lots of expectorant potential. But I absolutely agree with your general premise, that higher temp vapor does release a more complete spectrum of cannabinoids.
 
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biohacker

Well-Known Member
Again, it confirms what I have known for years - Arizer makes the best vapes

I disagree.. I know you're new to the forum (welcome by the way!!!) but there is no best vape or manufacturer, although I do respect your opinion.

Lower temps produce vapor with less purity. At 170° you are better off smoking.

I disagree again... big time! FUCK Combustion!!!! Can you please elaborate?

Also, it goes without saying that high temp vapor can certainly be quite harsh, with lots of expectorant potential.

Sub "irritant" for "expectorant" as well! ;):lol:
 

stickstones

Vapor concierge
I had a discussion about this with some industry people at Champs and where I landed was to stay lower than 350 to start for two or three draws to get terps without destroying them, which starts at 350ish. It doesn’t matter so much what temp they boil off...we want to catch them without destroying them, and a couple hits below 350 does this. Then temp step as desired from there. I’ve been playing with 330-350-370-390-410-top temp, and sometimes I’ll drop the stops at 350 and 410 for fun. But since those discussions I’ve been starting all my sessions at 330 and the thinking is the sessions will be more potent. I changed herbs when I started, so I can’t attest to that yet.
 

invertedisdead

Defenders Of Glass
I had a discussion about this with some industry people at Champs and where I landed was to stay lower than 350 to start for two or three draws to get terps without destroying them, which starts at 350ish. It doesn’t matter so much what temp they boil off...we want to catch them without destroying them, and a couple hits below 350 does this. Then temp step as desired from there. I’ve been playing with 330-350-370-390-410-top temp, and sometimes I’ll drop the stops at 350 and 410 for fun. But since those discussions I’ve been starting all my sessions at 330 and the thinking is the sessions will be more potent. I changed herbs when I started, so I can’t attest to that yet.

My personal theory is what they are discovering currently with cannabis extracts, using stabilized uptemps to preserve those volatile compounds, will be implemented eventually into a dry herb vaporizer design. The idea would be to start vaporizing from cold, ramping up linearly to vaporize things in order of their boiling point. I have tested this with extracts and it is noticeably smoother than static temperature vaporizing, but not only that, the clouds are substantially smaller. I suspect this to be from less oxidized compounds due to the gentler effect on those more delicate compounds.

The ideal design would be something possibly halogen based, as it is capable of the fast heat up times and precise control required for such a vape. This is basically the science and concept behind the Firefly's "Dynamic Convection" and they have a cool little infographic on their site which demonstrates this. That concept, in something more reliable and easy to use, has the most potential for the future of vaporization in my opinion.
 

stoned-chihuahua

New Member
What are you claiming is incorrect? The boiling point of THC? It's not that the number is wrong, it's that it was measured under strong vacuum, so it's relevant for lab use, but maybe not for our every-day vaporization.



Actually there are some flaws here if you read the whole study, especially how they collected the samples. I've discussed all of these tests recently with @biohacker in great detail. My Volcano is from 2006 so I'm pretty familiar with most of the studies done with that device. Anybody that has ever owned a Volcano knows its not going to perform well with .05g of herb. In fact, here's an except from the study you cited in your previous post.

"Although the Volcano vaporizer has several advan-
tages compared to cannabis cigarette smoke, the proper
use for the administration of medicinal cannabis has to
be established in more detail. Based on our results, the
amount of cannabis used plays a crucial role in the vapor
quality and should thus not be left to random administra-
tion, but carefully adjusted. Vaporizing temperature is
another factor to be optimized."

I have an Arizer Air which is very similar to the Solo, (same heater, IIRC) and IMO it's the worst vaporizer I've ever owned as far as medicating potential. Go figure?





I actually agree with part of this, but I wouldn't call it terp hype. Those essential oils are capable of inhibiting enzymes which allow them to modulate the effects of the cannabinoids. Vaporizing at higher temperatures likely oxidizes or degrades those terpenes which affects their medicinal or therapeutic value. It's why a low temp hit feels SO different from a high temp hit, as far as pscyhoactivity is concerned.







Yes there are more cannabinoids by vaping at higher temps BUT these cannabinoids are not necessarily desirable for ones particular medical condition. Certain high temp cannabinoids like CBC are very sedative in my experience. Also, it goes without saying that high temp vapor can certainly be quite harsh, with lots of expectorant potential. But I absolutely agree with your general premise, that higher temp vapor does release a more complete spectrum of cannabinoids.

THC and CBD are desired cannabinoids. You get more of these at higher temps and the vapor is purer. In my experience, the vast majority of patients use THC and/or CBD. I understand your point, but most people want to get the most THC and CBD. That said, empirical evidence in the first study (Volcano only) shows that all cannabinoids tested were extracted better at higher temperatures. You will get more of an entourage effect by vaping at higher temperatures. The entourage effect refers to the synergy of cannabinoids that bind to or influence CB1 and CB2 receptors. I just watched The Scientist a few weeks ago. The doctor who discovered the entourage effect never mentioned terpenes once. The whole documentary doesn’t mention terpenes, because the best cannabis scientists in the world don’t think they are that important. Let me know when linalool stops a child from having 200 seizures per week. In fact, medicine is going the other way, with terps stripped out of the products altogether, but a full range of cannabinoids. These are modern cannabis pharmaceutical products that effectively treat serious diseases, without so much as a whiff of terps.

If you are buying medical cannabis to get the terpenes at low temps, save some money and just buy the terpenes. They are cheap and legal everywhere. If we are talking about the entourage effect or enzyme interactions, there isn’t much science out there to support it. Specifically, at what temps does this new age magic happen? There is one source, the table. Another source is molecular interaction diagrams. Mash ‘em together and you get — conjecture.

Terpenes aside, the multicolored chart is fundamentally incorrect when applied to any vaporizer on the market. At 347° you are not getting much THC at all. You are wasting cannabis. Millions of people are wasting cannabis because of this misinformation.

The notion of starting a session low and increasing the temp is interesting, but you may be vaping the terps before they interact with the cannabinoids. I looked and I couldn’t find any empirical evidence to back this up.

You seem to think a vaporizer is like dialing into a radio frequency or something. In practice, you really can’t just dial in a temp and get a specific terpene or cannabinoid. I know, the mythical chart I have seen all over the Internet makes this claim. Where is the analysis of vapor content that proves any of it?

In my experience, the Volcano is overpriced and produces wimpy vapor. Bag systems also waste a lot of cannabinoids because they adhere to the bag.

I posted two studies and it appears that one of them was skimmed over. From the first one, which tests the Volcano at three temps:

“The following amounts of dried cannabis were tested: 50, 100, 250, 500, and 1000 mg. Each amount was pre-pared and tested in triplicate as described earlier.”

This study has the most relevance to different temperature vaporizing. Also, note in the results that all cannbinoids increase at higher temperatures. This empircally disproves the new age vape chart. You can’t just dial into a temp and extract certain cannabinoids like tuning into radio stations. Fact. They didn’t test for all cannabinoids, but there is enough evidence to invalidate the multicolored new age chart. (Which reminds me of some hippy guy in Santa Cruz that we used to call “rainbow pants”.)

The study found that low temperature vaping actually produced vapor that had more by-products and fewer cannabinoids. It is worse for your lungs. Most people will need more puffs to get the desired medication. They will also waste a lot of money, unless they eat their ABV.

Low temp vaporization has less THC in the vapor. That’s why it has weak psychoactive effects.

Sorry, but I will take science over pseudoscience any day. None of these charts have a single citation. It is more of a simulacrum than science. It is two diagrams conflated into a theory that has limited backing. Yes, terpenes have an effect. Some are even CB2 ligands. Let me know who’s spending $ for cannabis that is rich in a particular terpene. Patients and recreational users care about cannabinoids.

That’s exactly why I looked for these studies. I figured someone bothered to examine the composition of vapor. A few studies have done this. These are facts about vapor composition.

In the end, if you guys want to waste your weed for cookie or skunk ass flavors, that is your choice. If you think the medicinal effects are better, science seems to indicate that it is probably the placebo effect. I know a lot of people who have such high tolerance, they can no longer guage these differences accurately.
 
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biohacker

Well-Known Member
You get more of these at higher temps and the vapor is purer.

Actually the higher the temps the higher the chances of nasties like benzene and toluene forming. Nevermind the thermal irritation to your lungs.

If we are talking about the entourage effect or enzyme interactions, there isn’t much science out there to support it

Interesting, I was just watching Dr. Gupta talking about it! There is definitely an entourage effect, it's not just about the THC. I'm experiencing this with 99% distillate at the very moment!

At 347° you are not getting much THC at all. You are wasting cannabis. Millions of people are wasting cannabis because of this misinformation.

Misinformation, 100%. My girl gets BLASTED at only 155-165c and NEVER ever goes over that.

Bag systems also waste a lot of cannabinoids because they adhere to the bag.

Insignificant compared to the amount of vapour and actives in the vapour in the bag that doesn't stick compared to the convenience of delivery for some people. Personally I hate bags, but I think my water tool condenses just as much, not that it matters because I can't handle uncooled/filtered vapour.

The study found that low temperature vaping actually produced vapor that had more by-products and fewer cannabinoids. It is worse for your lungs.

Again, no way. Can you show me where it says that?

Low temp vaporization has less THC in the vapor. That’s why it has weak psychoactive effects.

Maybe for you, but not for all people.

Don't forget there is more to it than just temperature.
 

stoned-chihuahua

New Member
Actually the higher the temps the higher the chances of nasties like benzene and toluene forming. Nevermind the thermal irritation to your lungs.



Interesting, I was just watching Dr. Gupta talking about it! There is definitely an entourage effect, it's not just about the THC. I'm experiencing this with 99% distillate at the very moment!



Misinformation, 100%. My girl gets BLASTED at only 155-165c and NEVER ever goes over that.



Insignificant compared to the amount of vapour and actives in the vapour in the bag that doesn't stick compared to the convenience of delivery for some people. Personally I hate bags, but I think my water tool condenses just as much, not that it matters because I can't handle uncooled/filtered vapour.



Again, no way. Can you show me where it says that?



Maybe for you, but not for all people.

Don't forget there is more to it than just temperature.
Read the two studies. I don’t need to regurigitate it again.

I see that science is pretty much dead around here. No point in disussing this futher... I can’t argue with pseudoscience and anecdotes. I’ll take the science over that, any day!

Have fun wasting your weed and aligning your shakras.

Namaste.
 
stoned-chihuahua,

biohacker

Well-Known Member
:rofl:I read them, junk studies IMO and the one is quite dated. The 230c they quote is in reality probably much less. Regardless, you're introducing an entire new can of worms when it comes to your health when it comes to riding the edge of combustion, but hey if it works for you then by all means enjoy! This has been beaten to death in several threads on FC, some actually dedicated to this very topic believe it or not.

Have fun wasting your time on junk science and studies! I'll have to go tell my girl that she's been imagining getting stoned out of her skull at 155 with the S&B Mighty for years! :rofl::wave:
 

invertedisdead

Defenders Of Glass
THC and CBD are desired cannabinoids. You get more of these at higher temps and the vapor is purer. In my experience, the vast majority of patients use THC and/or CBD. I understand your point, but most people want to get the most THC and CBD.

People want the cannabinoids that they know about. For the longest time, that was only THC. The rise of popularity in CBD in the last few years says it all. People know about it, now they want it. And delta-8-THC is next... Guaranteed.

If you are buying medical cannabis to get the terpenes at low temps, save some money and just buy the terpenes. They are cheap and legal everywhere. If we are talking about the entourage effect or enzyme interactions, there isn’t much science out there to support it. Specifically, at what temps does this new age magic happen? There is one source, the table. Another source is molecular interaction diagrams. Mash ‘em together and you get — conjecture.

There is tons of science out there to support the effect of terpenes and essential oils as enzyme inhibitors, regardless if the studies are cannabis specific. It's kind of ironic to me that you consider generic food grade terpenes as a substitute for those synthesized by the cannabis plant itself, but don't consider other studies done on terpenes and essential oils to apply to cannabis?

Terpenes aside, the multicolored chart is fundamentally incorrect when applied to any vaporizer on the market. At 347° you are not getting much THC at all. You are wasting cannabis. Millions of people are wasting cannabis because of this misinformation.

Now you are confusing Delta 8 with Delta 9. These are two entirely different cannabinoids.

In practice, you really can’t just dial in a temp and get a specific terpene or cannabinoid. I know, the mythical chart I have seen all over the Internet makes this claim. Where is the analysis of vapor content that proves any of it?

I never claimed that you can dial in a specific terpene or cannabinoid, that sounds like an exaggeration on your behalf to my remark about the differences in pscyhoactive effect between low temp and high temp vaporization. While our vaporizers may not be accurate enough to do a legit fractional distillation, they are certainly accurate enough to control the cannabinoid spectrum to some degree.

In my experience, the Volcano is overpriced and produces wimpy vapor. Bag systems also waste a lot of cannabinoids because they adhere to the bag.

The Volcano is fundamentally the most important vaporizer ever designed, it certainly paved the way for many of the studies and research done on cannabis vaporization. I don't even see how this is debatable, What an ignorant response. :rolleyes:


Low temp vaporization has less THC in the vapor. That’s why it has weak psychoactive effects.

Perspective? I often find low temp vaporization more psychoactive? (strain dependent) With high temp vapor being much more sedative.

Sorry, but I will take science over pseudoscience any day. None of these charts have a single citation. It is more of a simulacrum than science.

If you genuinely understand the scientific method, you will notice how silly you look when sourcing two studies as indisputable fact lol. Todays psuedoscience IS tomorrows science, that's how the PROCESS works. Or is your earth still flat? ;)

BTW this infographic cites PubChem as the source. There are certainly conflicting sources of information regarding the boiling point of THC, that's for sure. PubChem does not list much info on delta9THC now... so its possible they have removed some of the information from their 2015 citation. If it does boil closer to 200C, what do you suspect is responsible for the psychoactive effects felt during low temperature vaping? Strictly vaporizing those essential oils by themselves certainly does not give me any such similar effects. What about you?
 
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MinnBobber

Well-Known Member
The notion of starting a session low and increasing the temp is interesting, but you may be vaping the terps before they interact with the cannabinoids. I looked and I couldn’t find any empirical evidence to back this up.
.................................................................................................
I temp step and find the low starting temps rich in terp flavors, with thinner vapor, almost a blueish white with some vapes.
The entourage effect does not have to happen instantaneously, as compounds vaped at higher temp steps will catch up with the low temp terps.

When I start eating with an appetizer, and then a main course, and then dessert, the dessert does catch up with the appy, for the full meal "entourage effect" ;)

The later vaped compounds will catch up with the initial low temp terps.

And just like water that boils at 212 F, as temps rise toward 212--that causes water to evaporate much faster than at room temp---it's not an "on/off" situation where nothing happens to the water until 212 boiling point.

Clearly , vaping at 445 wrings more out of your herbage, but some don't want what is "wrung out there", they want the low temp experience.
And one can customize the experience--low temps for daytime and finish that same partially vaped chamber in the evening for more sedating effects.
 

trfe

Well-Known Member
.................................................................................................
I temp step and find the low starting temps rich in terp flavors, with thinner vapor, almost a blueish white with some vapes.
The entourage effect does not have to happen instantaneously, as compounds vaped at higher temp steps will catch up with the low temp terps.

When I start eating with an appetizer, and then a main course, and then dessert, the dessert does catch up with the appy, for the full meal "entourage effect" ;)

The later vaped compounds will catch up with the initial low temp terps.

And just like water that boils at 212 F, as temps rise toward 212--that causes water to evaporate much faster than at room temp---it's not an "on/off" situation where nothing happens to the water until 212 boiling point.

Clearly , vaping at 445 wrings more out of your herbage, but some don't want what is "wrung out there", they want the low temp experience.
And one can customize the experience--low temps for daytime and finish that same partially vaped chamber in the evening for more sedating effects.

Well Said.

It seems that temp stepping is the solution to this “problem”.
 

MinnBobber

Well-Known Member
At 170° you are better off smoking.
...............................................................
Now that is certainly not true. It has been clearly documented by extensive science that the rough composition of combusted cannabis is 90% + nasty and toxic by-products from the 1000 F reaction and about 25% of the goodies get annihilated in the burn.

The vaped cannabis profile is about the reverse, 90% are the goodies with 10% or less being by-products AND the by-products are much less toxic substances. At high vape temps, some benzene is produced so that is the minor downside to high temp vaping / causes me to not believe that high temp vaping is cleaner than low temp vaping.
And even with some benzene production, vaping cannabis at any temp is very healthy medicine

From study:
It is, however,
important to note that the identication of the by-products
was not investigated during our current studies. It is there-
fore not claimed or suggested that the by-products pro-
duced by smoking cannabis are similar to those formed
during vaporization of cannabis. Identification of the
by-products produced by combustion and vaporization and
their classication as harmful or toxic will be investigated
during future research. It is, however, envisaged that the
vaporizer will produce nontoxic by-products while the com-
busted cannabis material will consist of toxic by-products
due to the signicantly higher temperature reached during
smoking, as this is known to occur in tobacc

Cannabis smoke condensate III: The cannabinoid content of vaporised Cannabis sativa (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...nabinoid_content_of_vaporised_Cannabis_sativa [accessed Mar 03 2018].
 

C No Ego

Well-Known Member
THC and CBD are desired cannabinoids. You get more of these at higher temps and the vapor is purer. In my experience, the vast majority of patients use THC and/or CBD. I understand your point, but most people want to get the most THC and CBD. That said, empirical evidence in the first study (Volcano only) shows that all cannabinoids tested were extracted better at higher temperatures. You will get more of an entourage effect by vaping at higher temperatures. The entourage effect refers to the synergy of cannabinoids that bind to or influence CB1 and CB2 receptors. I just watched The Scientist a few weeks ago. The doctor who discovered the entourage effect never mentioned terpenes once. The whole documentary doesn’t mention terpenes, because the best cannabis scientists in the world don’t think they are that important. Let me know when linalool stops a child from having 200 seizures per week. In fact, medicine is going the other way, with terps stripped out of the products altogether, but a full range of cannabinoids. These are modern cannabis pharmaceutical products that effectively treat serious diseases, without so much as a whiff of terps.

If you are buying medical cannabis to get the terpenes at low temps, save some money and just buy the terpenes. They are cheap and legal everywhere. If we are talking about the entourage effect or enzyme interactions, there isn’t much science out there to support it. Specifically, at what temps does this new age magic happen? There is one source, the table. Another source is molecular interaction diagrams. Mash ‘em together and you get — conjecture.

Terpenes aside, the multicolored chart is fundamentally incorrect when applied to any vaporizer on the market. At 347° you are not getting much THC at all. You are wasting cannabis. Millions of people are wasting cannabis because of this misinformation.

The notion of starting a session low and increasing the temp is interesting, but you may be vaping the terps before they interact with the cannabinoids. I looked and I couldn’t find any empirical evidence to back this up.

You seem to think a vaporizer is like dialing into a radio frequency or something. In practice, you really can’t just dial in a temp and get a specific terpene or cannabinoid. I know, the mythical chart I have seen all over the Internet makes this claim. Where is the analysis of vapor content that proves any of it?

In my experience, the Volcano is overpriced and produces wimpy vapor. Bag systems also waste a lot of cannabinoids because they adhere to the bag.

I posted two studies and it appears that one of them was skimmed over. From the first one, which tests the Volcano at three temps:

“The following amounts of dried cannabis were tested: 50, 100, 250, 500, and 1000 mg. Each amount was pre-pared and tested in triplicate as described earlier.”

This study has the most relevance to different temperature vaporizing. Also, note in the results that all cannbinoids increase at higher temperatures. This empircally disproves the new age vape chart. You can’t just dial into a temp and extract certain cannabinoids like tuning into radio stations. Fact. They didn’t test for all cannabinoids, but there is enough evidence to invalidate the multicolored new age chart. (Which reminds me of some hippy guy in Santa Cruz that we used to call “rainbow pants”.)

The study found that low temperature vaping actually produced vapor that had more by-products and fewer cannabinoids. It is worse for your lungs. Most people will need more puffs to get the desired medication. They will also waste a lot of money, unless they eat their ABV.

Low temp vaporization has less THC in the vapor. That’s why it has weak psychoactive effects.

Sorry, but I will take science over pseudoscience any day. None of these charts have a single citation. It is more of a simulacrum than science. It is two diagrams conflated into a theory that has limited backing. Yes, terpenes have an effect. Some are even CB2 ligands. Let me know who’s spending $ for cannabis that is rich in a particular terpene. Patients and recreational users care about cannabinoids.

That’s exactly why I looked for these studies. I figured someone bothered to examine the composition of vapor. A few studies have done this. These are facts about vapor composition.

In the end, if you guys want to waste your weed for cookie or skunk ass flavors, that is your choice. If you think the medicinal effects are better, science seems to indicate that it is probably the placebo effect. I know a lot of people who have such high tolerance, they can no longer guage these differences accurately.

smelly terpenes that are volatile are sesquiterpenes... thc /cbd ( cannabinoids/terpinoids) are monoterpenes... how each molecule via its volatility rate evaporates ( gaseous phase change) determines when / how that molecule has bio-activity @ responsive cannabinoid receptors.... the sequiterpenes sit on the receptor and enliven it to accept more biological information from the heavier more stable monoterpenes... this is entourage of compounds and mechanism of action of how the active molecule expresses itself upon open receptor sites via volatility...

this can be described via myrcene and D-limonene ( terpenes) ... you never find myrcene in a land race sativa but limonene will be in there... you will not find limonene in a skunk strain but myrcene etc... thc/ cbd ratios could be exact in different strains like a skunk or sativa while effects will be swayed via the sesquiterpenes... glad to be the one to provide this " new age" info to you LOL and to explain th eprocess... new age LOL... u go with that brother

edit- this can be explained to by examining Marinol ( synthetic lad made thc ) .... thc only with no bio-direction at all via volatility entourage etc... so what happens= complete paranoia usually because of lack of complexity to guide cannabinoid metabolism
 
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stickstones

Vapor concierge
The notion of starting a session low and increasing the temp is interesting, but you may be vaping the terps before they interact with the cannabinoids.

This was my thinking as well when I thought the entourage effect took place in the vapor itself, instead of within our bodies chemistry. In other words, I was thinking this needed to happen before I inhaled it, but others have told me it's about what it does in concert inside the body. So we can take our time over a session to get the most actives in our system, and then they interact and go crazy from there...
 
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