Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects

[WhyWhyWhy?]

It's this rush some non converted smokers miss when they first try. But 5 minutes after cashing a bowl they recognize they are pretty stoned comparably with minutes after a joint. ( If of course you prepare everything right and dial each vapes technique for them)

I only agree with this of all your statements. With the high-temperature method, you must clearly know what your norm is, otherwise the condition may become too much. But that’s the beauty of it, when through trial and error you find your norm, you make one bowl and are free to do other things without turning vaping into an endless religious mass.

And the stepwise approach, although it has the advantages of a smooth rise in state, I mean when you change the contents of the bowl for new flowers and increase the temperature, but thereby increases your tolerance with each new bowl! In total, to achieve the state of “your norm” you will need much more + overclocked tolerance!

 

[vapurrize]

the most powerful effect is achieved only at high temperatures

I agree with that, however, I'd say its extremely relative as if you release all the CBD by fully vaping the herb, it will neutralize the THC effects so I found that a long sessions using a lot of material at med temps, and then roasting a bit more, can yield a big buzz. The Highest I got was with Sativa (Thai Haze) created a tinnitus issue where the slightest touch on my feet would trigger loud noises in my ears I had to call the night off and roll into a ball in my bed the highest effect is not always what we want. that was probably 15 big bowls over a 40 minute period (I didnt take note of the exact circumstances but never got there again). I probably could get higher that night, like a few years before when we rolled a half ounce joint with a few buddies

 

[bardad]

great read
I have experience with MFLB, dynavap, vapman, argo, alfa, tm2, venty, dreamwood.
I abstained from thc for a long time, then only cbd and now for the second year slowly thc and all this only strictly by vaping. I haven't seen smoke for decades.
now a few months of vents: a whole bowl of his outdoor GUAVA grass, four covers with a visible taste of terpenes and steam at a temperature of 180 C, an open steam path at level 3.
that's how it suited me. abv is light green to slightly brown and I hide it in a container for extract or ointment.

today I tried a small mallet / about 1/7 of a venty bowl / into a ceramic ring, five to six coats without much steam at a temperature of 210 C. abv already more brown, but not dark brown or black.
a big difference compared to the previous setup.
as for the effect, it hit me like a rocket, my body was very relaxed and high at the same time.....obviously it depends on many factors.
anyway a very different and more intense feeling.....i have to point out that i have a very low tolerance. I was and still am very affected after three hours, so I don't know it from a vape at all.

with tm2 I don't like warm steam already at 180 C, I don't want to use any sophisticated stems etc. it stops being practical.
the venty are great, but if I put a full bowl at 210C it would probably kill me.
and it's probably a little over-dimensioned like this in a micro dose, you suck in little steam, a lot of air, but it's cool and compact.

so thank you very much for the topic, I will still try with vapman, but I have also grown out of lengthy rituals and rather prefer practicality, endurance and discretion.
if you can think of anything that needs to be done with a venty, I'm happy to learn.
hi

https://imgur.com/a/QawkX7V

 

[WhyWhyWhy?]

I agree with that, however, I'd say its extremely relative as if you release all the CBD by fully vaping the herb, it will neutralize the THC effects so I found that a long sessions using a lot of material at med temps, and then roasting a bit more, can yield a big buzz. The Highest I got was with Sativa (Thai Haze) created a tinnitus issue where the slightest touch on my feet would trigger loud noises in my ears I had to call the night off and roll into a ball in my bed the highest effect is not always what we want. that was probably 15 big bowls over a 40 minute period (I didnt take note of the exact circumstances but never got there again). I probably could get higher that night, like a few years before when we rolled a half ounce joint with a few buddies

The idea of neutralizing THC by CBD at high temperature is very interesting. But in practice, 1 bowl at high temperature works more strongly than several bowls at medium temperature... Therefore, I cannot take into account neutralization, or rather, I would neglect it

 

[Mischa]

IMHO all true, but it should be clear, that you get ALL effects up to the wanted temperature. (ok, one has to check vape-quality and technique,
I needed some time to grasp that. All web sources tell the same. Nowhere stands the above. You have to realize it for yourself. Hopfully my words aren't complete nonsense or arrogant. Sorry for your time raping.

 

[cybrguy]

It was always my impression if you start at too high a temperature you burn off low temp goodness that at a lower temp you might be able to aerosolize and absorb. Is that an incorrect impression? I get that you might want to keep increasing the temperature until you get some higher temp goodness, but I always thought, by starting at high temps, you lose a lot.

Added: I assume this is the whole logic behind temp stepping, so it is obviously pretty common. I understand that that doesn't make it true, but still...

 

[EverythingsHazy]

In order to test this out, one would need to do some sort of blind testing. Having a friend/partner set your vape temp for multiple sessions, on different days (first session of the day to avoid the tolerance differences), with the same batch and amount of bud, and then recording the effects, and not checking to see which sessions were which, until the end, could work.

Otherwise, there is way too much room for placebo to play a role, on top of multiple other factors.

 

[seedy53]

It was always my impression if you start at too high a temperature you burn off low temp goodness that at a lower temp you might be able to aerosolize and absorb. Is that an incorrect impression? I get that you might want to keep increasing the temperature until you get some higher temp goodness, but I always thought, by starting at high temps, you lose a lot.

Added: I assume this is the whole logic behind temp stepping, so it is obviously pretty common. I understand that that doesn't make it true, but still...

terp steping has more to do with selecting terps you want at certain temp and those that you don't want -heavy stone/sleepiness comes from hot end of the terp spectrum. that's why i stay in the 375f to 395f, no higher unless i want sleepiness.
there are melting points for each group and individual terpenes

 

[EverythingsHazy]

In order to test this out, one would need to do some sort of blind testing. Having a friend/partner set your vape temp for multiple sessions, on different days (first session of the day to avoid the tolerance differences), with the same batch and amount of bud, and then recording the effects, and not checking to see which sessions were which, until the end, could work.

Otherwise, there is way too much room for placebo to play a role, on top of multiple other factors.

Also, something that people seem to leave out when discussing these temp based effects, is that you don't need to hit the boiling point of a chemical for it to evaporate. Water will evaporate if left out in a 70F room. A lot of terpenes, cannabinoids, and other chemicals in cannabis will be completely vaporized, after a few hits, even if the boiling point is never hit. This issue seems to stem from a lack of understanding about basic physics/chemistry.

 

[LeftBased]

I notice temp stepping is optimally good like 370f - 390f

 

[seedy53]

Also, something that people seem to leave out when discussing these temp based effects, is that you don't need to hit the boiling point of a chemical for it to evaporate. Water will evaporate if left out in a 70F room. A lot of terpenes, cannabinoids, and other chemicals in cannabis will be completely vaporized, after a few hits, even if the boiling point is never hit. This issue seems to stem from a lack of understanding about basic physics/chemistry.

only 2 or 3 known terps are water based. most terps are oil based, therefore boiling points are very relevant to terp chasing. the chemistry of water has very unique evaporation factors, that only work for water chemistry. terp oil evaporation factors are a totally different animal when it comes to evaporation, esp at room temp and their boiling points.
anyway, this is the way i understand it, right or wrong. lol
when it comes down to it, do what you think best. lol i do.

 

[EverythingsHazy]

only 2 or 3 known terps are water based. most terps are oil based, therefore boiling points are very relevant to terp chasing. the chemistry of water has very unique evaporation factors, that only work for water chemistry. terp oil evaporation factors are a totally different animal when it comes to evaporation, esp at room temp and their boiling points.
anyway, this is the way i understand it, right or wrong. lol
when it comes down to it, do what you think best. lol i do.

There is a difference between water and oils, and other chemicals, for that matter, and evaporation physics, however, while oils are generally less likely to evaporate much below their boiling points, at least some terpenes can do so relatively easily, due to often being more volatile than other oils (which is also related to why they give off potent scents at room temperature.

Cannabinoids may resist evaporation a bit more robustly, though. That said, once you hit 365F, you have reached the boiling points for CGB (259 F), THC (315 F), Delta-8-THC (347-352 F), CBD (320-356 F) and CBN (365 F). THCA has a decarboxylation point of ~221 F, and a boiling point of 315 F.

 

[Old Moderate]

Also, something that people seem to leave out when discussing these temp based effects, is that you don't need to hit the boiling point of a chemical for it to evaporate. Water will evaporate if left out in a 70F room. A lot of terpenes, cannabinoids, and other chemicals in cannabis will be completely vaporized, after a few hits, even if the boiling point is never hit. This issue seems to stem from a lack of understanding about basic physics/chemistry.

Nicely put ! The noids are also in a mixture with more volatile compounds so that too can accelerate the evaporation of the noids at temperatures below their boiling points (those typically listed I believe are measured at low pressure, so they are actually much higher at atmospheric pressure).

 

[KeroZen]

It's simple: if you can smell it, then it means the compound was volatile and reached your nose receptors. You don't "smell from a distance" so to say, the stuff comes to you airborne. So this should be proof enough that even at room temperature, many compounds in a sense already "vaporize" (i.e. become aerosol)

 

[EverythingsHazy]

Nicely put ! The noids are also in a mixture with more volatile compounds so that too can accelerate the evaporation of the noids at temperatures below their boiling points (those typically listed I believe are measured at low pressure, so they are actually much higher at atmospheric pressure).

Thank you!

I think that, with something as dependent on mental states as a Cannabis buzz, it's very easy to placebo oneself into feeling differences. I wouldn't be surprised, if you could tell someone that one strain has a sleepy effect and another an energetic one, and then have them feel those effects, despite the buds being from the same plant.

To test if temp stepping actually works, and/or to what degree it does, one would probably want to use a machine to vape some batches ground bud, of a predetermined amount, at a specific temps for a specific amounts of time, with specific rates of airflow/volumes of air used, and then test either the vapor and/or the bud, to see if what is in the vapor and/or what remains in each batch.

A more feasible test for most people, though, would be to have a partner control the temp of a vape, without them knowing (a makeshift single blinded study), and to test the same bud repeatedly over the course of several days, with random temp choices for each (temp A vs B, randomly selected, let's say, not just any random temp), and then have the "tester" write down what they think about each session's effects, and then compare the notes with the data on the temps used for each, at the end.

It's simple: if you can smell it, then it means the compound was volatile and reached your nose receptors. You don't "smell from a distance" so to say, the stuff comes to you airborne. So this should be proof enough that even at room temperature, many compounds in a sense already "vaporize" (i.e. become aerosol)

Yup, smell isn't some sort of energy field magic lol. It's detection of airborne molecules.

 

[Mischa]

lots of vapes work with LEDs in +/-10° C steps from 180-220°C. Way enough imho.
Of course you can divide your temperature difference through your draws:
190-200° = 4 steps : 20 draws = 5 draws per step.
Or you use single °C double steps from 190-220. *lol*

 

[LeftBased]

I feel that if its set to a certain temp and the Venturi effect places a role in getting most goodies out over time sort of like a piece of toast being left long enough in a low temp toaster oven eventually starts going from light color to a medium to brown to dark. I think 350f can still get cannabinoids just that the cannabinoids per puff may not be as strong. however overtime as your session goes on eventually the rest or a percentage boils off. there can still be resins left over in the abv. Higher temps boils a lot of stuff off and can be harsher due to oxidizing terps and some cannabinoids oxidizing.

again each batch of flower varies as well in humidity , variant terpene ratios and cannabinoids. so no one perfect temp, I've experimented with overly dry herb and nicely freshly cured herb, different qualities. and came to conclusions you can use a convection, conduction or a hybrid and still get similar flavor just conduction taste more roastier and noticed more sedative compounds or relaxing compounds extract better, while my hybrid can achieve similarities at higher doses while providing better flavor for a short time, while a convection using on demand provides great flavor however eventually those flavor compounds die out and still there is vapor available it becomes muted or bland tasting waxy or resinous and eventually starts getting oxidized flavor.

so it becomes flavorless cannabinoid wax from flower. convection on demand does give decent flavor per puff however many factors play a role, for ex source material may not have as much terpene content but has high cannabinoids.

overly dry will oxidize faster at medium temps. also inhalation technique could actually vaporize souce material quicker thus leaving you with a tinge smokey flavored oxidized cannabinoids.

I've achieved an abv level of dark one time, I typically stop when I taste smokiness despite flower may not be black or super dark. it becomes a medium brown or medium dark brown.

temp stepping seems promising with my own personal experiments. I just find a medium temp then a medium high temp it all depends on source material.

sometimes I just like sitting at one temp it all depends on medical need. if I temp step I do feel I achieve more out of material, however if you skip flavor chasing and move up to a higher temp and control inhalation or use a WPA device you can achieve same thing in a short time.

so I'd say I feel like it's a journey in trying to find the perfect temp, most likely every batch is experimental once you find a temp range for that batch just stick with what works for you. and a new batch try using same range or dial up or down till you settle on a decent temp range. for me. this smal batch of gushers performs great at medium temps and higher temps while past 380f taste oxidized.

so I stay near 380f and below for this batch of gushers.
so far so good other strains vary. I notice 370f seems like a decent temp with flavor and cannabinoid balance based on my experiments with other strains. again inhalation technique, device, quality and or state of source material can change these variables.

Maybe even the sea level of your area can alter the effects of vaping like if you are in a very humid place these given temps may not be suitable or maybe. hard to say. even colder places can effect the device and experiences.

I live in the West coast and we have been having heat waves 100+ in past months and sometimes 90s in October. I notice on hotter days the vape device remains like a hand warmer for awhile till it cools down. despite this, I always allow my vapes to cool down before charging them up or going for a second session. I find it preserves battery life as some vapes have a non removabe or serviceable battery.

and also I do not feel comfortable with an 18650 battery being overly warmed as they recommend cooling down batteries before reusing. heat degrades cells over time. eventually the battery will stop holding a charge and I know that you can get reputable cheap 18650s. I am more concerned with thermal runaway. I can afford to buy more 18650s.

I do know that it maybe rare in regards to the battery having thermal runaway however some cells can't stand being overheated for long periods which isn't good. That's another anxiety for me. I just think practicing safety is good when dealing with a device that's close to your face/body. if something feels too hot let it cool down. sure the heater is just dispitating heat out through the metal shell of the vape.

 

[staircase slight of hand]

only 2 or 3 known terps are water based.

Which ones? My understanding has always been that they’re all non-polar enough to be oil soluble only.

 

[RedZep]

I read all 28 pages and specially registered on the forum to share my experience, namely : the most powerful effect is achieved only at high temperatures, which was later confirmed by the post https://fuckcombustion.com/threads/vaporization-temperature-dependent-selection-of-effects.1637/post-1518429 with Volkan temperature tests.

I have always used microdoses, an average of 0.03 grams and almost always the same variety from my garden. Only in the evening, 3-4 times a week. In addition, I have kept a detailed record of each session for many years -date, time, quantity, method of use, physical condition before and after, emotional state before and after. I'm just obsessed with these statistics, you can write a medical doctorate on them. From this table, Excel easily produces graphs that visually show many parameters, one of which is the number of flowers consumed.

I started with burning in a glass tube. The effect is strong, the eyes are red, it is easy to catch overdose. I was puzzled by the harm of smoke and switched to conductive Ald Amaze Wow. I liked it, but I noticed that the effect became softer or something and the number of cups per session increased, and as a result, the consumption per evening.Then I switched to Dynavap, I was delighted, the effect is similar to a tube, the flow rate of flowers returned to the level of a tube. But the effect quickly became weaker and it coincided when I began to practice not a one-time strong heating, but a stepwise one, with an increase in the heating temperature. I.e., I started with a low temperature.

Then I bought an Xlux Roffu and was just delighted with the convenience and quality. But the effect did not get stronger. Then I bought a Chinese replica of TinyMight 2, purely to try it out. TM2 won me over. The purest taste, though it evaporated quickly and sometimes I got a strong blow. And I didn't understand why overdose sometimes happened.Until then, I purposefully decided to study the differences in effects at different temperatures. And that's when my eyes opened! TM2 in "9" mode with 0.04 grams just blew the roof off in a good way. There was no overdose, it was just like then, with a glass tube, only without smoke))) This is a temperature of 240-250 Celsius! To achieve this on Roffu, it was necessary to do 2.5 times 0.04 and still the effect will not be so interesting! Roffu gives a maximum of 220 degrees Celsius. Then I understood everything. The Dynavap worked well when I warmed it up a lot, as did the combustion tube. Temperature is the determining factor of the effect's strength !

And for a long time I wondered why they write everywhere that high temperatures are not needed for the effect, because my experience spoke about something else. Yes, after "9" on TM2, I saw brown flowers, but 1 cup of 0.04 was enough for me in the evening, I did not need to run and "catch up". The consumption of flowers is small, and this is very important where the topic is prosecuted by law.

Earlier it was written that combustion is so inspiring because of poisoning by by-products. I disagree. The effect that I get from TM2 on "9" is precisely a very strong high, before reaching the overdose door. Of course, there is an increasing tolerance and 0.04 grams - this is the first evening with flowers after a break of 3-4 days. And so it is weekly. I've been doing the experiments for a many week.

Tests with Volkano eloquently confirm my observations, the conclusions of the authors can be applied to any vaporizer on the market! Because :

1) Precisely because we do not know the exact temperature in our vapes, if you want to get the maximum effect, then you need to set the maximum temperature. The flower will be subjected to a temperature range up to the maximum value and you will have confidence that in this range there will be the temperatures we need for extraction. This is better than hoping that the temperature that the vape shows you is correct. It can be much smaller!

2) Previously, the idea of different "vape signatures" was discussed. In practice, all these signatures can be reduced to a system of "weak impact" with low temperature and "strong impact" with high temperature. Variations of this system are your current mood + the entourage effect.

3) Stepwise vaporization - active enzymes evaporate from flowers at any temperature, even low, and at the next stage there is simply nothing to evaporate.. I would separate "evaporation" and "evaporation with extraction".For example, at a temperature of 160 Celsius, you will get the evaporation of a large mass of substances from the staff, but you will not get THC, simply allowing it to evaporate in an inactive form. The issue of volatilization without decarboxylation was very well raised here. And I suspect that this is one of the reasons for the effectiveness of the high temperature.

4) The stepwise method may also seem effective because of the placebo principle -I felt the effect and the following sessions seem to raise more, although the effect from the first session is the strongest, it acts in waves with an interval - the first peak after 20 minutes, the second after 40 minutes and then after 80 minutes - the third peak, but weaker. You can confuse the effects of subsequent bowls with the effects of the first bowl, which only make themselves felt over time.

5) It was written here: "if you start at a temperature of 390 degrees Fahrenheit, you will destroy almost all these substances (low-temperature terpenes)."

But I think that the destruction described by you will not happen, the temperature in the layer of contact with the flower will heat the raw material from room temperature to the temperature of the heater and in this temperature range all low-temperature components will be released. Perhaps some of them will collapse, but given the fact that there is a constant suction of air, the released enzymes, being released, immediately evaporate into your mouth, cooling down and perhaps not having time to catastrophically collapse.

6) The question about the loss of 160 С compared to a lower temperature.To avoid the loss of simple evaporation of inactive substances, it is better to apply high temperature immediately - everything will evaporate and activate. At the same time, some of the substances, having passed their activation threshold, will collapse or react with other components, but still in this case we will get the smallest percentage of loss / combustion of the necessary substances

7) Earlier, @pakalolo wrote, "As a rule, in many designs, waiting before striking increases the vapor density upon impact. The steam is quite heavy and does not come out of the oven/heating channel until you inhale. In other words, it accumulates."

But there is a caveat. Accumulates, but what is its temperature and will its temperature rise to the desired release of compounds, or will it be DISPLACED by new hot air when blown? In my experience, the technique of high temperature without preheating is more effective, hot air hits the flower, instantly releasing and activating compounds without parasitic evaporation as with preheating.

8) @darbarikanada wrote: "(I suspect) I would have to smoke more cannabis at a lower temperature, so I would be as high as if I smoked less cannabis at higher temperatures."

Yes, it is. my long-term charts confirm this. Using temperatures at 220 ° C convective and 260 ° C conductive vaporizer requires 2 times more flowers than evaporation at 260 ° C powerful convective vaporizer.

9) The most effective vape (in theory), in my opinion, is one in which the contents are heated to a high temperature in a CONFINED SPACE and only after reaching a set temperature is supplied to the consumer. In this case, the losses caused by transients will be reduced to zero. Everything that evaporates is activated.

Your description of the perfect vape describes the ZX by Phase3 imo. Small, confined airtight chamber connection. Bowl material that does not leach much heat away, requiring no pre heating. It's known as a flavour chasers vape, but I run it at high temps, and just crush bowls in one hit, through small dry bubblers or j hooks. The efficiency is staggering. You still get some terps, which also backs up some of your earlier points.

 

[seedy53]

Which ones? My understanding has always been that they’re all non-polar enough to be oil soluble only.

well you are right, natural terps are not water-soluble but there are new tech that can modify cannabis terps, make them water soluble, as i understand it. the drink companies are going hard on water soluble terpene production.

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