Vapor Consumption Efficiency

[C No Ego]

I've actually seen where people exhale their vapor hit into a bag and pass that to another person and they get plenty of effects from inhaling that without touching a vape ... second hand vapor ... there is also carbon monoxide in there and whatever other waste by product in exhaled air etc... the people were close who done that , a couple ... I doubt just random people would be up to excepting second hand vapor LOL
if a person were to be able to hold the vapor in long enough to fully condense in the airways and lungs ( impossible) then that would be 100% extraction ... there is still so much actives in huge vapor hits that fill the room with one big exhale ....

 

[Siebter]

I don't think the volume of the exhale says anything about its content.

Anyway, the question is: *how much* good stuff is typically left in vapor after we exhale it? Until we know that number, everything else is highly speculative.

 

[C No Ego]

I don't think the volume of the exhale says anything about its content.

Anyway, the question is: *how much* good stuff is typically left in vapor after we exhale it? Until we know that number, everything else is highly speculative.

well it's vapor going in and vapor pouring out , amounts are lessened on the outflow but still very visible vapor with the compounds therein that have always been in there ... the larger the hit the more the waste

 

[WelshBrok]

Thc, terpenes, these compounds don't like heat. when you're vaping with a vape from the conduction or semi-conduction family, some of the molecules are getting oxidized and the result is not the purest vapor (Volcano Classic is not an efficient vape IMHO....)

I think convection vapes are way more efficient. i vape 0.02-0.03gr with my Mi3 one-hitter (wooden WPA, 5-10 sec' of preheating) and it hard hits and taste well.

Why Dynavap is so efficient then, if it's conduction? very small chamber is giving you the chance to give uniform heating all over the cap's sides. it takes me 18 sec' to fully extract 0.02gr, heating at Mid with Ti tip, so in these 18 sec' the thc/terpenes are getting oxidized a bit

Actually there was a test done on the content of vapour from portables and if I remember correctly the arizer air/solo was the most effective at extracting. So presumably a slower extraction is more effective overall or conduction is actually more effective

Edit: actually no one hitter types were tested https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/l... zoom&p=PMC3&id=4718604_pone.0147286.g003.jpg

 

[Siebter]

@C No Ego – okay. But that's not useful knowledge, is it? Again: *how much* does the lung absorb, do you have any idea? A third? Half of it? 10%?

 

[GoldenBud]

we need both HPLC device and GC too....for our tests....ASAP

 

[invertedisdead]

The only study I’ve ever seen done was years ago with the Volcano where they found on average, 35% THC was lost on exhale.

https://www.vapormed.com/en/amfile/file/download/file/274

 

[Siebter]

Thanks, @invertedisdead – here's the respective excerpt:

Clinical Study and Loss by Exhalation

The clinical trial was finished without any serious complaints by the test subjects. Some mild
complaints included irritation of the throat and lungs, and coughing. However, these effects were also
observed during inhalation of placebo and therefore could be an effect of residual ethanol. The
development of significant physiologic changes after inhalation of vaporized THC indicates that THC
can be effectively administered by this route.

Interestingly, it was shown that a large proportion of inhaled THC was not absorbed by the lungs. The
total amount of THC used for evaporation was 20 mg of THC for each subject (Rising dose of 2, 4, 6,
and 8mg resulting in a total dose of 20 mg). Taking into account the average delivery yield of 53.9%
as found in this study, only an average of 10.8 mg of THC was totally inhaled from the balloon. The
amount of THC recovered from exhaled breath ranged from 2.5 to 4.4 mg, which means that up to
30% -40% of inhaled THC was not absorbed by the lungs. The variability of THC in exhaled breath
(relative SD 5.4%) is comparable to the variability in delivery of THC by the Volcano. Taking this into
account it could be concluded that absorption of THC by the lungs is probably very similar between
different subjects.

 

[C No Ego]

@C No Ego – okay. But that's not useful knowledge, is it? Again: *how much* does the lung absorb, do you have any idea? A third? Half of it? 10%?

I'd guess that up to 25 to 30% may be absorbed with a hit and then maybe reach 40% efficincy when re breathing the same hit multiple times as that new oxygen opens up new absorption capability in the lungs ... if the lungs sense no new oxygen for a while they are not absorbing until it is introduced again ... people who do breathing practices etc.... obviously will absorb more than people who are unaware of breathing and barely breath all day in a semi coma state ( Zombies or stressed out short air breathers )

 

[invertedisdead]

If our lungs can only take in so much, is extracting everything in one hit just a complete waste? Is the Volcano stretching out my cannabinoids by mixing in so much air and delivering them to me in 10+ hits? Is the portable just wasting most of the cannabinoids?

I made a thread about this a while back if you want to take a look!

What style of vaporizing do you find most effective?

Been thinking about this one for a while, wanted to take a poll to see what style of vaping FC members find is the most effective for them: slow drawn out sessions, or fast and heavy extraction? Or do you rely on both methods to help keep things fresh? I'm also really curious about microdosers...

fuckcombustion.com

 

[Siebter]

I'd guess that up to 25 to 30% may be absorbed with a hit and then maybe reach 40% efficincy when re breathing the same hit multiple times as that new oxygen opens up new absorption capability in the lungs

The study @invertedisdead linked estimates 60-70% efficiency:

The amount of THC recovered from exhaled breath ranged from 2.5 to 4.4 mg, which means that up to 30% -40% of inhaled THC was not absorbed by the lungs.

...though it is of course only *one* study.

people who do breathing practices etc.... obviously will absorb more than people who are unaware of breathing and barely breath all day in a semi coma state ( Zombies or stressed out short air breathers )

Yeah, flat inhaling vs. deep inhaling does definitely affect efficiency. That's one aspect said study does not take into account.

 

[Grass Yes]

Yeah, flat inhaling vs. deep inhaling does definitely affect efficiency.

I naturally inhale deeply from vapes so it took me a long time to figure why so many people had problems with devices that I love.

I think part of what I like about vaping/cannabis is the meditative ritual and deep breaths.

Anyway off topic for a weird thread but I commented anyway.

I also haven't held in my hits since I was a combusting teen. Never made a detectable difference for me, except for hilarious sputtering coughs.

 

[C No Ego]

The study @invertedisdead linked estimates 60-70% efficiency:



...though it is of course only *one* study.



Yeah, flat inhaling vs. deep inhaling does definitely affect efficiency. That's one aspect said study does not take into account.

that efficiency is taking into account how well the vaporizer extracts what is in the plant material being vaped , then we have to figure all that and how well the tissues of the bod absorb all that ... tehn the amounts that do not get absorbed etc.... the breathing expample also show how lungs expect new oxygen to absorb every few secs ... us holding in vapor so as to absorb is not exactly how lung function occurs while new oxygen is a given every few secs etc.... the lungs will automatically turn off absorption as no new air is not what they are after , they will not exactly sit there and absorb stale air if someone holds their breath . maybe people who train to free dive have that going on however as training the air flow and amounts is happening with them .
@Grass Yes that face turning blue while holding in that massive hit is certainly indicative of a lack of oxygen to the brain

 

[Siebter]

@C No Ego – True, but here we talk about how efficient our lungs are at absorbing the created vapor, not how efficient the used device is; that's yet another chapter. The study shows exactly how much THC was present originally, how much vapor was created and how much vapor is condensing in the bags, these parameters can vary with every device anyway and have nothing to do with our absorbing capabilities and couldn't be affected by any kind of inhaling technique. So 60 to 70% *of the thc that goes into our lungs* will be absorbed.

Many of us make edibles from abv, which shows that the vaporization process itself is not 100% efficient.

 

[Farid]

Well to be fair, those of us who vape bud more fully generally don't save it for edibles. When I did make edibles I was more likely to vape less fully. But you're right, it will never be 100% efficient.

But I kind of feel like this discussion of efficiency is sort of like obsessing over THC% in flower - it misses the bigger picture.

 

[C No Ego]

@C No Ego – True, but here we talk about how efficient our lungs are at absorbing the created vapor, not how efficient the used device is; that's yet another chapter. The study shows exactly how much THC was present originally, how much vapor was created and how much vapor is condensing in the bags, these parameters can vary with every device anyway and have nothing to do with our absorbing capabilities and couldn't be affected by any kind of inhaling technique. So 60 to 70% *of the thc that goes into our lungs* will be absorbed.

Many of us make edibles from abv, which shows that the vaporization process itself is not 100% efficient.

so even with that analogy 40 to 30% of the medicine is wasted on the exhale when we expel all that vapor at once from the lungs ... if committing to re breath some of that back in with repeated inhales and exhales then the % obviously can only increase per amount of available vapor per dose etc....

 

[invertedisdead]

The most efficient technique Ive found by far is to just not vape much.

People obsess over bowl size when session frequency is the main contributor IME.

so even with that analogy 40 to 30% of the medicine is wasted on the exhale when we expel all that vapor at once from the lungs ... if committing to re breath some of that back in with repeated inhales and exhales then the % obviously can only increase per amount of available vapor per dose etc....

Conduction vapes are good for rebreathing (I call it recirculating) since you don’t really have to draw air to extract. I usually only do it with rosin though. But in theory recirculating is basically the same thing as taking another hit. That was part of the Sulak method for reducing tolerance is to try and just do one inhalation, but re-breathe it to get more satisfaction and efficacy. I think the main goal of his re-sensitization protocol is to refrain from building a habit over “sessions”

 

[Big_O]

Hello, thank you Kusko to open this thread, it start a ideology war beetwen 2 guys but good informations were shared here. So we know that around 30% THC is contained in Avb, and 30% is lost by our lungs (maybe less with rebreathing technique ) So seems we just get 50% of THC content from a vape session, and if we use avb, 70%.

 

[Big_O]

I personnaly don't really like the rebreathing technique, so I tried to use a balloon to keep my exale vapor and revape it, in order to check if my high feeling is stronger than without.. Gotta tell that I feel higher by taking that 21% (70% of 30%) Thc lost content But, it is not a pleasant technique cause the recycle vapor in the balloon is moist and hot, and it could develop bacteria in the ballon then, so the experience bring knowledge but not something to use regulary But thank to Kusko, the myth that visible vapor mean THC lost is now dead

 

[dman28]

Great topic! The amount of absorption is determined by lung physiology and technique. Our respiratory tract is made up of conducting airways and areas where absorption (of vapor) takes place.
A slow exhale to empty your lungs completely and then a moderate velocity inspiration. A breath hold... exhale. Is pro
You may get a bigger buzz rebreathing the contents of a bag, but it also may be a result of consuming greater amounts of carbon dioxide as well.

 

[GoldenBud]

consuming greater amounts of carbon dioxide as well.

yeah it's an interesting topic because basically on every molecule of THCA that gets converted to THC Delta 9, the conversion releases a 1 molecule of CO2, but the CO2 weighs 44 gr/mol while THC Delta 9 weighs 314 gr/mol so it's the least problem that we may have with vaping...
I mean... it's 314gr/mol, we all carry some amount of THC in our lungs, it gets out as mucus or something but we all carry it, probably small amounts....